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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on September 15, 2003, at 16:29:57
In reply to Dinah Others--Religion in Therapy, posted by HannahW on September 13, 2003, at 22:43:14
> Dinah--After reading The Source made you a firm agnostic, how did you move beyond that to a faith you're comfortable with? How long did it take, and what prompted the change?
>
> I catch myself praying a lot before I remember, "Oh, yeah, I don't believe that anymore." I miss believing, and I want to believe. I just don't want to believe because I NEED to think there is Someone in control, I want to believe in something I'm convinced is TRUE. I'm interested in hearing the process you went through.
>
I read The Source as part of the required reading for a required world religion class at a religious institution. I don't know if the instructor was an atheist or he just wanted us to examine our faith and come to a more mature level of faith from that. I had come from a home where I was raised in the religions of both my parents. They were pretty incompatible, since both religions were based on divine revelation and claimed to be the one true religion. Obviously they both couldn't be, so I was already set up with a dilemma. I was the kid that wanted to organize my friends to visit all different sorts of churches each Sunday so that we could decide for ourselves which one was "true" and not just accept the faith of our fathers.From the time I read The Source and became an agnostic to the time I was able to fully embrace faith once again, well it was probably fifteen years. During that time I would periodically read and pray for guidance and was quite discouraged that my prayers were met by resounding silence.
When my son was born, there was a new urgency to the matter. I went back to the church I had most closely identified with in childhood. I read as much as I could on that church, and prayed as fervently as I could for guidance. I tried to free myself of preconceptions and listen for the still small voice to help me regain my faith. Well, to tell you the truth, I didn't expect more than the still small voice, but I wouldn't have minded a divine revelation complete with trumpets.
To my intense sorrow, I eventually came to realize that I wasn't going to be able to fully accept the doctrines of the childhood church I loved. And it wasn't a church that allowed you to pick and choose what parts you believed.
So I widened my net. I read voraciously about all religions. I listened for the still small voice (or the sound of trumpets). I eventually went back to the basics. Did I believe in the existance of God.
I read all I could on science and faith. I discovered that if the earth's orbit was more elliptical than it was, that it would not be conducive for life. I found that we escaped many meteors because of Jupiter's larger gravitational pull. I began to see how truly miraculous it was that life could exist as we know it. How terribly fragile the entire thing was, while also being so robust and self repairing. And my conclusion (and I'm sure others have examined the same information and come to different conclusions) was that it was more improbable to think of the whole thing happening by chance than it could ever be to believe in a guiding force. I must confess that I was probably predisposed to come to the conclusion that there was a God, but I discovered to my relief that that conclusion was not incompatible with reason. So my first step back to faith was to develop a belief in the existance of God.
From there, I read even more. I listened to that still small voice that was growing stronger. I discovered that my soul is thoroughly Jewish. My heart resonated to the writings of Jewish theologians and philosophers. Unfortunately I was in a the body of a woman raised Christian, married to a Christian man. I went to the Rabbi to discuss my dilemma. He told me that God cared more for unity in the family than He did where I worshiped or when. I grudgingly agreed with the truth of that. I started to read and research again. I found a church whose doctrine I could mostly agree with, and that was content to let me agree to disagree with the rest. I was honest about my feelings to my pastor, and was accepted anyway. My husband found that he too was in agreement with the doctrine of the church so we joined as a unified family.
I had to do some work at that point, to decide to make the leap of faith on a lot of the smaller points. I'm probably a heretic by church standards, although my thinking wouldn't have been all that heretical until the Council of Nicea which didn't happen until well into the history of the church. And I consider myself a Jamesian Christian rather than a Pauline Christian. I keep many of my views to myself, although as I said, my pastor is aware of them. He blandly assures me that the church is in favor of independent study of the Bible and understands that different conclusions can be reached.
My spiritual journey is by no means complete, and my current understanding will probably grow and mature. But overall I'm not unhappy that The Source shook my faith. I feel like my faith has grown, in a way that it might never have grown if it hadn't been challenged. And I've finally gotten in touch with that still small voice I've been trying to cultivate from my youth. Although if I ever get the divine revelation, trumpets and all, I'll probably check myself into the nearest mental health facility. :)
Standard disclaimer: This was my faith journey alone. Others have equally valid viewpoints and any conclusions I have come to are merely right for me, not anyone else. Anything that didn't feel right for me just didn't feel right for me and almost certainly were the right choice for many many others. My still small voice does not claim infallibility or to be the sole owner of "The Truth". I respect all paths.
Posted by rayww on September 16, 2003, at 9:59:49
In reply to Re: Dinah Others--Religion in Therapy » HannahW, posted by Dinah on September 15, 2003, at 16:29:57
Thank you for bringing this to the faith board. I was so touched by following this thread back. These are the spiritual issues that should be being discussed. Why would anyone have been offended by this?
Is it possible for the spirit to offend? Writing is a form of art. Therefore it can be a spiritual expression of a carnal desire with power to lift one over the cross.
The cross is a symbol of sin. When we make a mistake we XXXX it out. Jesus was nailed to a cross to symbolize his gross error in claiming to be the Messiah. He lifted himself over the cross and has the power to also lift each one of us.
I love to read anything that is spiritual. Therefore I recommend to Bob, that he broaden the parameters of his judgement of whether or not to caution or block someone from posting.
What is the spirit and how do you discern it? If it feels similar to the posts that trail back through this thread, it's probably the spirit. If it gives you a "bad movie" feeling, it's probably not. Discernment is not always easy. It is a spiritual gift that has to be learned, exercised, developed. Cummon Bob, you can do it.
Actually, with all due respect, I admire Bob for trying to keep out the trash. It is not an easy job, and requires a lot of his time and great commitment to the cause. THanks Bob. You're doing not too bad. And, how about us? Do you think we have hope of overcoming our prejudices and judgementality?
We love you Bob. Thanks for bringing us together.
ps. I purposely threw in a couple of words to see if you could catch the contrast.
Posted by HannahW on September 16, 2003, at 12:13:47
In reply to Re: Dinah Others--Religion in Therapy » HannahW, posted by Dinah on September 15, 2003, at 16:29:57
I've spent the last 15 years believing, but not really acting on my faith, so I can imagine what those 15 years of agnosticism were like for you.
After my first few years of passionate belief, church for my husband and I became largely social. Although it was important to us to like the pastor's preaching style and the worship music, first and foremost in our minds was whether there was a group of people our age that we could socialize with and relate to. We bounced around from church to church, looking for the right mix. We finally settled on one, but have only been to it a couple of times.
Now, (and this is a relatively new experience for me) I feel like a fake for being at church. The church we chose is pretty charismatic, and the worship music is an intensely important part of the service. I love to sing, and I used to love to worship. But now, when we sing songs that essentially say, "God, you're my everything, I completely surrender to you..." etc. I feel like I'm lying to God. So I sing the words of the song without really feeling them, and feel empty instead. Maybe I would do well to go to a more conservative church for a while, where they only sing hymns. If I can get back that foundational faith, then I think the personal relationship part will follow.
But where do I get back that foundational faith? A logical answer would be to pray for it, but I'm still questioning whether God even hears my prayers, and if he does, whether he cares. I think I have pretty much resolved that question for myself that God exists--for the same reasons you described. The universe just makes no sense if there was not a master plan. Some people use nature to disprove God, but I think it does the opposite. Still, I can say he exists, but I don't have much conviction about it. I wish I could feel with every bone in my body that he at least exists, even if I can't feel his presence. I want to be able to shout from the mountaintop that GOD EXISTS! Maybe a good place to start would be to go hiking and take note of the beauty of nature, and how it must be a reflection of the beauty of God. To remind myself that such beauty can not be a cosmic accident, or even a careless creation of God, but must have been carefully and lovingly created. And if he carefully and lovingly created the earth, it seems likely that he carefully and lovingly created people. And I'm one of those people. Hmmm...I might be on to something here.
Your post was very well articulated, and I can tell that you put a lot of thought into it. Thank you so much for making that effort. I truly admire the journey that you've made, both spiritually and in therapy. I'm hopeful that I can get there myself.
In my cynical state, I have begun to allow myself to take God's name in vain, which I've NEVER done. If I wind up reconnecting with God, I'll struggle with that guilt. Sins directly against God seem worse than other sins, although lots of people would say that's not true. I'm already feeling regret that I've crossed that line. But that's a good sign! It implies that I believe in God, recognize my sin, and desire forgiveness.
Without getting unreasonably optimistic, maybe I'm on my way!
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 16, 2003, at 19:05:21
In reply to Re: Dinah Others--Religion in Therapy, posted by rayww on September 16, 2003, at 9:59:49
> Actually, with all due respect, I admire Bob for trying to keep out the trash.
Thanks, but keeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel put down, could you please rephrase that?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on September 16, 2003, at 20:25:06
In reply to Returning to God » Dinah, posted by HannahW on September 16, 2003, at 12:13:47
Don't worry about the sin. God has made ample provisions for human imperfection and repentence.
For one family evening, I made up a game for my husband and son. Each played a character at the start line of life, and I called out the decisions that each character had made in his life to bring themselves closer or farther from God. Then at the end, whatever good or bad decisions each had made, wherever they were in their journey to God, each called out for God's love and forgiveness. And each was easily in the reach of God's grace.
If you have already come to the conclusion that it took me years to decide on - that God exists - you're halfway there. Looking for God in nature is a wonderful place to start. So is playing worship music in your car (or at least it is for me). And don't forget the little things. To me the way a scab forms over a cut, God's bandage, is nothing short of a miracle.
I spent most of my life waiting for God to answer my prayers. Waiting for an answer that I could hear. I even knew that the answer would come in a quiet whisper. But I missed it for most of my life. And I still miss it a lot. :) My brain is way too loud sometimes to hear it. But I've also had moments where I experienced that still small voice of clarity.
Hmmm... Perhaps some mindfulness meditation would help you in your quest. That centered stillness helps the Spirit make contact.
Good luck, Hannah.
Posted by rayww on September 16, 2003, at 22:39:16
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on September 16, 2003, at 19:05:21
"bad words" was what I was referring to. I have this picture in my mind of a big trash can and a person emptying all the bad thoughts and words from their head into the trash. What did you think I meant?
And the saying at the bottom of the poster says "Take out the trash"
Posted by Dena on September 17, 2003, at 9:55:11
In reply to Re: Returning to God » HannahW, posted by Dinah on September 16, 2003, at 20:25:06
Good word, Dinah. I also enjoyed the story of your journey back to God, especially the wonder of how all the planets are in just the right place & order to support life here on earth. Amazing.
Your family game sounds wonderful... May I "borrow" your idea?
Shalom, Dena
Posted by Dinah on September 17, 2003, at 21:33:41
In reply to Re: Returning to God » Dinah, posted by Dena on September 17, 2003, at 9:55:11
This certainly is an amazing world. So fragile and yet so resilient.
You are more than welcome to borrow my idea. I give it freely. My husband hated that game. :)) He's a very law and order sort, and the idea of grace almost offends him at times. lol. He's never been fond of the Prodigal Son story either. :)
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 18, 2003, at 0:02:20
In reply to Re: please rephrase that, posted by rayww on September 16, 2003, at 22:39:16
This is the end of the thread.
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