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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychosugar on December 27, 2002, at 0:08:53
Hi,
I am new...'nuff said.
I wanted to get some opinion on my dillemna.
I have an invisible chronic physical illness: some docs say Chronic Fatigue, some say Fibromyalgia: both vague terms in medical sciene as far as I can tell.
Anyway my latest Doc threw me onto Remeron, an AD, and while it has helped my physical self immensely, I am now unable to connect with God the way I could before.
In my experience of antidepressants; they take away somewhere between 5 to 30 per cnet of my emotional self. Unfortunately it is in that 5 - to 30 per cent threshold where the meat of my faith really is. And i feel disconnected. My doctor seems not to be aware of such a spiritual cost.
Any ideas on what I should do?
Prior to taking these meds: I was extrememly physically sick, but incredibly close to God. I spent four hours a day lying down and felt that I had many spiritual breakthoughs in that time. Like Job I moved from self-justification (anger about my sickness at God) to God-justification (though he slay me yet will I praise Him)psychosugar
Posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 1:54:44
In reply to Distance from Christ: AD, posted by psychosugar on December 27, 2002, at 0:08:53
Boy, do I ever connect to what you are saying! I felt distanced from my spirituality and from God when I was on Epival and Topomax, but decided it was because I had been swinging way too high spiritually before my diagnosis. Although I felt closed off by the meds, I was still connecting to my calling in ways others could recognize, but I couldn't.
I don't know if this makes sense or not. Oh, could I tell you a story about that one! At the worst part of my last crash, right in the middle of it, with my bishop fully aware of what was happening, i was called to be president of our women's society. I mean the day - the week of the crash. That told me that God doesn't take excuses, and neither does he look down upon those who are bipolar. To be bipolar is a spiritual power that God can use to help others, if you channel it right. Did I say that right? Sometimes my grammar goes to bed before I do.
Posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 2:12:26
In reply to Distance from Christ: AD, posted by psychosugar on December 27, 2002, at 0:08:53
I got so caught up in "my" response I forgot to answer your question. Sorry. I would say, cling to the word, and keep a journal. Treat each new day as a gift and try to make something to write about with each day, even if it is simply one new thought or idea. My daily journal habit has been a life saving theraputic anchor, and now that my memory is failing, I can go back and re-live my own life (if I ever should want to). Your spirituality is still there, and you need it more now than ever before. You will see it in your writing (is my bet). It's important for you to know it is still there. It hasn't gone away. It just looks different when you are on medication. I felt it in your post. So, my advice is to keep writing.
In what ways do you relate to Job?
Posted by psychosugar on December 27, 2002, at 10:51:38
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 2:12:26
Thanks, Rawww(?)
That was a very encouraging response.
I know that I still have an extremely strong faith and a fairly strong sense of long term direction. It is just that prior to the meds I seemed to have a borderline-genius sensitivity to God, His Spirit and people's issues. It was way intense. I felt as if I was having third heaven revelations, incredibly deep and all the while I was extremely physically sick.
Now the meds have dampened that 'spiritual' high.I relate to Job greatly in many ways; I have spent much time in the book that bears his name. Job's journey in deep pain and sickness takes him from self-justification ("I hate God, he shouldn't make me suffer, I DESERVE better treatment) to God-justification ("I repent because I spoke of things I did not understand: i.e. God is master of this life in all things, not me).
I have gone through the same journey and my faith is a lot stronger because of it.bless you
psych
Posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 11:58:34
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by psychosugar on December 27, 2002, at 10:51:38
> Thanks, Rawww(?) It's ray ww (wonderful woman :)
>It is just that prior to the meds I seemed to have a borderline-genius sensitivity to God, His Spirit and people's issues. It was way intense. I felt as if I was having third heaven revelations, incredibly deep and all the while I was extremely physically sick.
I've been there too. Right before I was diagnosed bipolar I felt like I was living in the "inbetween" place. Everything had a heavenly interpretation. I connected to nature and felt one with the earth. I gained new insight into earth culture and felt a kinship to the ancient belief; I felt like I understood far more than the modern natives do. But looking back, I still consider that to be one of my highest genuine spiritual moments. I could tell what others were thinking and feeling, and had fun guessing and playing word games with people. I also felt very misunderstood, like people were looking at me and saying "Huhhhhh?" (well, perhaps they still do)
> Now the meds have dampened that 'spiritual' high.
That is good. Think, "mainstream" and try to get there. It's a safer place.
>
> I relate to Job greatly in many ways; I have spent much time in the book that bears his name. Job's journey in deep pain and sickness takes him from self-justification ("I hate God, he shouldn't make me suffer, I DESERVE better treatment) to God-justification ("I repent because I spoke of things I did not understand: i.e. God is master of this life in all things, not me).
> I have gone through the same journey and my faith is a lot stronger because of it.
>
> bless you
>
> psychBless you! In going through those things it is so easy to turn the other way and lose your faith. But, I have always found it easier to cling to faith in those difficult soul wrenching moments, like nothing else matters. And then they pass and faith is stronger.
Did Job ever turn away from God?
Posted by Dave1 on December 28, 2002, at 1:44:08
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 11:58:34
Hi,
I was really religous when I was younger. When I started taking science courses in college I seemed to start losing my beliefs. I don't think I really believe in Christ as much anymore, but I think I believe in God. Before it was so clean cut about my beliefs. I believed.
Regarding the meds I didn't realize that could effect my beliefs. Thanks for the heads up.
Dave
Posted by TheHermit on January 3, 2003, at 9:07:45
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by Dave1 on December 28, 2002, at 1:44:08
> Hi,
>
> I was really religous when I was younger. When I started taking science courses in college I seemed to start losing my beliefs. I don't think I really believe in Christ as much anymore, but I think I believe in God. Before it was so clean cut about my beliefs. I believed.
>
> Regarding the meds I didn't realize that could effect my beliefs. Thanks for the heads up.
>
> DaveHmmm, sadly, folks, in my many journeys through depression and revelation, purity, chemical re-programming through SSRI's alcohol, MaryJane or whatever, I have come to accept that humans have a great facility for getting together in groups of two or more and making themselves beleive a huge variety of group fantasies. There is no 'god', just a little cluster of cells somewhere in the middle of our hypothalamus that is desperate to belong. Probably we inherited it from the lizards! Different chemicals enable you to emphasise or de-emphasise certain species of beliefs, e.g., LSD: "I can fly!"; Alcohol: "I am very attractive to women."; Cocaine: "I have the most brilliant mind in the universe and everyone in the pub is desperate to hear opinion about the flaws in their character." Religion: "I love these people and they all love me and we are all safe in a beautiful world where everything has a meaning but only Great One knows so I don't need to worry." SSRI's: "Well, I seem to have become a zombie but I can't remember the advantages of not being a zombie (except maybe I used to get laid once in a while) so I guess I'll just carry on taking them and . . . slowly . . . . . sinking . . "
Sorry to burst your bubble guys but, much as I'd like to run and snuggle into the bosom of the Big Guy, it's easy to see once you start taking responsibility for your biochemistry that that's all it is - so when you tweak the chemicals to do with basic cosmic insecurity, hey presto, suddenly you don't have to go grovelling at the feet of idols so much. So, our challenge in this age is to find a way to live together in this crazy mechanical universe without having to beat the other tribes over the head with our gilded crosses, gilded elephants, or Golden Arches! Good Luck Guys - it won't be comfortable, but at least it's real!With Love, TheHermit - Seven Years on SSRI's, three generations of family crushed by religious ignorance, long-time victim of cults and whacked-out pseudo-psychic belief systems. The Buck Stops Here!
Posted by Dr. Bob on January 3, 2003, at 10:41:19
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » Dave1, posted by TheHermit on January 3, 2003, at 9:07:45
> three generations of family crushed by religious ignorance, long-time victim of cults and whacked-out pseudo-psychic belief systems.
You may have completely understandable feelings about religion...
> There is no 'god'
> Religion: "I love these people and they all love me and we are all safe in a beautiful world where everything has a meaning but only Great One knows so I don't need to worry." . "
> once you start taking responsibility for your biochemistry that that's all it is - so when you tweak the chemicals to do with basic cosmic insecurity, hey presto, suddenly you don't have to go grovelling at the feet of idols so much.But the idea here at Psycho-Babble Faith is to support religious faith. Other points of view may, however, be posted to Psycho-Social-Babble. But the idea at all these boards is not to be sarcastic, post anything that could lead others to feel put down, or exaggerate or overgeneralize:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration; otherwise, they may be deleted.
Posted by TheHermit on January 3, 2003, at 10:48:31
In reply to Re: please be civil » TheHermit, posted by Dr. Bob on January 3, 2003, at 10:41:19
Yup, Sorry Folks, just had to take off and have a little rant - I'll go look for the 'Alienated' list!
Hermit
Posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 7:11:35
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by rayww on December 27, 2002, at 11:58:34
> > Thanks, Rawww(?) It's ray ww (wonderful woman :)
>
> >It is just that prior to the meds I seemed to have a borderline-genius sensitivity to God, His Spirit and people's issues. It was way intense. I felt as if I was having third heaven revelations, incredibly deep and all the while I was extremely physically sick.
>
> I've been there too. Right before I was diagnosed bipolar I felt like I was living in the "inbetween" place. Everything had a heavenly interpretation. I connected to nature and felt one with the earth. I gained new insight into earth culture and felt a kinship to the ancient belief; I felt like I understood far more than the modern natives do. But looking back, I still consider that to be one of my highest genuine spiritual moments. I could tell what others were thinking and feeling, and had fun guessing and playing word games with people. I also felt very misunderstood, like people were looking at me and saying "Huhhhhh?" (well, perhaps they still do)
>
> > Now the meds have dampened that 'spiritual' high.
>
> That is good. Think, "mainstream" and try to get there. It's a safer place.
> >
> > I relate to Job greatly in many ways; I have spent much time in the book that bears his name. Job's journey in deep pain and sickness takes him from self-justification ("I hate God, he shouldn't make me suffer, I DESERVE better treatment) to God-justification ("I repent because I spoke of things I did not understand: i.e. God is master of this life in all things, not me).
> > I have gone through the same journey and my faith is a lot stronger because of it.
> >
> > bless you
> >
> > psych
>
> Bless you! In going through those things it is so easy to turn the other way and lose your faith. But, I have always found it easier to cling to faith in those difficult soul wrenching moments, like nothing else matters. And then they pass and faith is stronger.
>
> Did Job ever turn away from God?Hi! This is my first time posting. I'm bi-polar and a christian and I struggle with the same things mentioned in this thread. I've come to realize that the emotional part of my belief in christ and God may fluctuate with my moods, but like any major committment(ie marriage, decisions are ideally based on emotions and inellect. I prefer being emotionally close to christ, but when that's not happening because of a chemical thing (and I have gotten pretty good at telling when that is after years of on/off meds) then I remind myself that the emotions will be back and i do have another part of my belief that consists of an intellectual committment to live a certain way. Hope this gives something to chew on anyway. Thanks for even broaching the faith/meds/mental health issue!
junie
Posted by rayww on January 8, 2003, at 8:51:17
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 7:11:35
>
> Hi! This is my first time posting. I'm bi-polar and a christian and I struggle with the same things mentioned in this thread. I've come to realize that the emotional part of my belief in christ and God may fluctuate with my moods, but like any major committment(ie marriage, decisions are ideally based on emotions and inellect. I prefer being emotionally close to christ, but when that's not happening because of a chemical thing (and I have gotten pretty good at telling when that is after years of on/off meds) then I remind myself that the emotions will be back and i do have another part of my belief that consists of an intellectual committment to live a certain way. Hope this gives something to chew on anyway. Thanks for even broaching the faith/meds/mental health issue!
> junie
>
>junie, welcome, welcome, welcome. You have described exactly how I feel too. Praise the lord that we have values to cling to in those moments when because of the disorders we feel estranged from God.
AD started a wonderful thread here, but then hasn't returned. I hope you linger and contribute more of what you have learned through your experience and ideas about this very important but least understood segment of bipolar disorder.
Posted by rayww on January 8, 2003, at 8:55:30
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » junie, posted by rayww on January 8, 2003, at 8:51:17
Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 8:59:39
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 7:11:35
Welcome to Pscyhobabble Faith! It's always good to see new names.
I definitely agree. The commitment in any relationship is there for when the feelings aren't. It seems sometimes I run too much on commitment. Those feelings are nice rewards for the commitment.
Posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 11:03:36
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » junie, posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 8:59:39
Thanks for the welcome! I was just thinking too about how I usually gravitate toward emotion over intellect. I think it may be BECAUSE I'm bipolar. I think bipolar people have "learned" to respond with emotion first because we have been so flooded with intense emotion most of our lives. That's the hard part of going on medication for me. We are emotion junkies because our bodies have made us that way. It's hard to learn to function with a different paradigm. Praise God he has given us a way. I always connect with King Saul in the OT. He was one of us. I often wonder about Paul too!
Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 18:16:53
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 11:03:36
I claim Paul for obsessive compulsive disorder. :)
I saw an ad for a book about that once. Applying diagnoses to biblical characters. I saw another one for historical characters.
I go to the opposite extreme. Because my emotions are so unstable, my tendency has been to surgically remove them, although of course I haven't succeeded as well I would like.
Posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 21:15:24
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » junie, posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 18:16:53
> I claim Paul for obsessive compulsive disorder. :)
>
> I saw an ad for a book about that once. Applying diagnoses to biblical characters. I saw another one for historical characters.
>
> I go to the opposite extreme. Because my emotions are so unstable, my tendency has been to surgically remove them, although of course I haven't succeeded as well I would like.Okay, you can have Paul! ; ) I'd love to read that book sometime about applying diagnoses to biblical/historic characters.
My original career was as a classical musician (oboist) so I think I was able to use those emotional swings to my advantage until they got so bad that I couldn't control them. Then I drank myself into a stupor. 12 years of therapy and medication later, I think I'm coming to terms with my SELF.
Now I'm a library technical assistant working on a couple of masters degrees to be a librarian. Big switch, huh. I think I'm trading places with you!
How did you distance yourself from your emotions? Medications? What do you do for a living. If all those aren't too personal. I'm interested!
Posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 21:46:59
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » Dinah, posted by junie on January 8, 2003, at 21:15:24
I'm not quite sure how I did it, Junie. That's kind of what I'm trying to work out in therapy. It was a long long time ago. I was an out of control depressed teen, and I just didn't like what my life was like. I wasn't getting what I wanted from life with my emotionality. So I just pretended to become who everyone wanted me to be, and eventually I came to think that's all there was to me.
A librarian sounds like a wonderful profession. I do think that if I ever go back to school to change careers I'd like that one. How is the job outlook?
So that we don't get redirected from the faith board, I too would like to find that book. I don't remember what I did with the ad. I did take a religious history class lately that concluded that both Martin Luther and John Wesley probably had OCD, along with Paul.
My favorite biblical character though is Moses. I love the reluctant hero. I wonder if he was diagnoseable.
Posted by junie on January 9, 2003, at 7:16:09
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » junie, posted by Dinah on January 8, 2003, at 21:46:59
I always felt bad for Moses, Dinah. Even though he grew up as royalty, everyone probably knew what he was/where he came from. Tough situation. And then when he tried to step out for the right thing by sticking up for a fellow Israelite he got blasted by both sides. Years in effect in exile. What did that make of him? Someone who probably didn't want to step out again. He had to go back into the Lion's den. Did you ever wonder why God asks us to do the thing it seems like we're most scared of sometimes?
I know someone who will know the name of that book. In fact I think he's mentioned it before. Google Patrick Mead and read some of his sermons. I think you'd like him.
Posted by rayww on January 9, 2003, at 11:59:53
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD, posted by junie on January 9, 2003, at 7:16:09
can you copy and paste a direct link into one of your favs? It sounds like good reading.
Posted by Dave1 on January 12, 2003, at 3:39:45
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » Dave1, posted by TheHermit on January 3, 2003, at 9:07:45
Some evidence for the existence God for you to think about.
The best argument I've heard supporting the existence of God is that we and everything around us are too complex to exist by accident. So many things have to be exactly right for there to be more than just hydrogen atoms to exist in the universe. If the value of the pull of gravity was just 1/10 of 1 percent different we couldn't exist, etc. So, did all the laws of physics accidently happen to be exactly right for us to exist, or did some higher being set them up that way during the creation of the universe. The latter seems more feasible to me.
I am not alone in my beliefs in God, several very smart people I know believe in God including my father who was a rocket scientist for 30 years at NASA. Also, a very sharp Pdoc I go to is a Christian and he certainly knows more about the brain than any of us.
Dave
Posted by psychosugar on January 13, 2003, at 14:36:19
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » TheHermit, posted by Dave1 on January 12, 2003, at 3:39:45
Hi'
Im still around.
Thanks all for contributing to this post.
As far as Mr Hermit's words. God Bless him. I think that God put the 'sense of belonging' receptor in us to start with. Sure its brain chemistry, but God is the chemist.cheers
ill be around
Psych
Posted by Tina P on February 8, 2003, at 16:17:37
In reply to Re: Distance from Christ: AD » TheHermit, posted by Dave1 on January 12, 2003, at 3:39:45
Sorry everyone, but I'm with The Hermit all the way!
This is the end of the thread.
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