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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by rayww on December 21, 2002, at 23:12:08
It seems you need a spark here to get a discussion going. I can't see the point of the faith board if polars aren't allowed their swing time.
There is no possible way to make a statement of one's belief without that statement being an inferred put down to another's belief.
Am I an irritant? Irritants make pearls you know.
There's three topics. How am I doing so far?(a point, not a put down:) Some religions actually teach the doctrine of shunning. (Anababtists, Mennonites, Hutterites). If one goes against rules he is shunned by the rest of the colony during his discipline time. Some are made to stand up in church. Could you imagine being the only one standing during your regular worship service?
Checking the silent faith board and seeing my name makes me feel like I have been standing up in church. Picture me standing in the middle of your congregation. Now, the preacher is directing his sermon at me. I am feeling:
1.
2.
3.I have a dreadful sense of humor, and I am an irritant, but I am also very good at making people think.
Yes, I felt bad/good about the discipline, and in one of my "moments" I opened my scriptures randomly, as I often do when I need comfort, and the very first verse I read was this one:
http://scriptures.lds.org/john/11/47#47Maybe God has a sense of humor too? Or, perhaps his comfort was found in his explanation of why a person might get shunned on the faith board.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2002, at 1:10:25
In reply to Banning or Shunning?, posted by rayww on December 21, 2002, at 23:12:08
> There is no possible way to make a statement of one's belief without that statement being an inferred put down to another's belief.
Sure there is. If I say I believe x, that doesn't put down y. Not in general, anyway. Was your point that my believing in x means I don't believe in y?
Bob
Posted by rayww on December 22, 2002, at 10:36:02
In reply to Re: putting down to another's belief, posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2002, at 1:10:25
> > There is no possible way to make a statement of one's belief without that statement being an inferred put down to another's belief.
>
> Sure there is. If I say I believe x, that doesn't put down y. Not in general, anyway. Was your point that my believing in x means I don't believe in y?
>
> BobIf I say "I believe in fresh air" it should not put anyone down or make them feel bad. However if I start listing all the reasons why I believe in fresh air it may offend some. If I take it a step farther (US further) and name the health risks associated with breathing "smog", more readers may take offense or feel bad about their place in the universe.
Then, you would have those who accept the trade-off and rationalize how much better it is to live in smog and have access to industry and services than to live in fresh air where there may not be shopping malls, fast food establishments, or industry.
Just because I believe in x doesn't mean I can't accept or believe in y. The problem lies in the perception of the reader.
I have been reading "Sacred Contracts" It explains a lot about how we all tie in with our beliefs, rooting back to the same God; Christian, Islam, Jew.
When I lived in smog I accepted the trade-off, but I also believed in fresh air. Now that I live in fresh air I certainly accept smog and what goes with it. Heck, I love Disney, the beach, and the Southern California attitude. If I was to say, "Now, Easterners, that's another story ;>)" that would probably offend you, because you wouldn't be able to tell if I was joking or serious, as you cannot hear or see my non-verbals.
Oh Bob, have a good day, and a Merry Christmas!
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 22, 2002, at 10:39:05
In reply to Banning or Shunning?, posted by rayww on December 21, 2002, at 23:12:08
rayww,
You wrote,[...you need a spark to get a discussion going here...]
Then you wrote that you [...opened your bible to a verse...].Then you wrote that,[...His explanation of why a person might get shunned on the faith board...]
Now I looked at the verse and if you could clarify :
1)if you are , or are not, connecting the verse that you opened to as to be an explanation of [why a person might get shunned on the faith board]
2) if you are connecting the verse as an explanation of [why a person might get shunned on the faith board], then could you clarify how the verse explaines that?
If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your post and be better able to have a discussion with you concerning what you wrote in the post.
Thanks,
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 22, 2002, at 11:09:41
In reply to Re: putting down to another's belief » Dr. Bob, posted by rayww on December 22, 2002, at 10:36:02
> If I say "I believe in fresh air" it should not put anyone down or make them feel bad...
This is really an administrative issue, so I've replied at:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20021128/msgs/8575.html
Bob
Posted by rayww on December 24, 2002, at 1:55:18
In reply to Re: Banning or Shunning? » rayww, posted by Lou Pilder on December 22, 2002, at 10:39:05
> Then you wrote that you [...opened your bible to a verse...].Then you wrote that,[...His explanation of why a person might get shunned on the faith board...]
> Now I looked at the verse and if you could clarify :
> 1)if you are , or are not, connecting the verse that you opened to as to be an explanation of [why a person might get shunned on the faith board]
> 2) if you are connecting the verse as an explanation of [why a person might get shunned on the faith board], then could you clarify how the verse explaines that?
> If you could, then I could have a better understanding of your post and be better able to have a discussion with you concerning what you wrote in the post.
> Thanks,
> Lou
>Lou, I don't wish to offend your Jewish belief, so please accept my kindness in this regard, but you have asked me a question that I can't answer without offending your belief. In fact, I doubt I will be able to answer it at all to your understanding, but I will try.
Jesus had just performed a public miracle by raising Lazarus from the dead. THis wasn't a miracle that could be disputed by anyone, because there were many witnesses, and because of that, Jesus had many Jewish followers. The entire Jewish nation was threatened by the divine Jesus. Without a united Judah, The Romans would certainly gain power over them.Jesus had just raised Lazarus from the dead, not as a resurrected immortal being, but back to his human state, to live and die again - and age as he would have naturally.
As soon as the Pharisees knew that they could not dispute the power and authority of Jesus they decided to put him to death. They reasoned it was better for one man to perish, than a whole nation.
They knowingly, prophesied that Jesus would gather in one all the children of god from every nation. ANd from that day they set forth to kill him. ANd Jesus walked no more openly among the Jews, until he was finished his mission.
Jesus was shunned because his works testified and proved he was divine. He had the human attributes of Mary his mother, but divine power from God, his literal father.Even today, as soon as people begin thinking of Jesus as a literal god, the opposition begins to creep in. Call it shunning or what may. Or in my case, as soon as a mormon starts testifying of Christ, it has it's own particular inferrance. See, mormons can think of christians as christians and believe all the truths taught in all religions, but christians can't return that acceptance to mormons because of the Joseph Smith vision.
I believe Jesus is a God, and that our father is also God, meaning there are two of them who look like us; bodies, passions, feelings. By me saying that, am I putting you down? No. You may believe whatever you want. People who do not believe in Jesus may believe whatever they want.
Some of the best living people I know do not believe in God or Jesus. Some of the worst abusers of children do believe in God. People murder and commit holy war in the name of God.
I haven't answered your questions Lou, but perhaps you didn't understand my post. Maybe I didn't fully understand it. All I know, is as I read the verses before and after the one I highlighted, I understood to a very small degree the feeling that Jesus must have had when he was shunned and banned from the nation he loved.
You wouldn't understand why that is an issue for me even if I tried to explain it to you, but anyway, one gets to know Jesus by thinking about how he must have felt when he was in similar circumstances. In life we learn the emotions too.
Have you ever been betrayed by someone? so was Jesus. Have you ever watched someone you love make wrong choices and ruin their life? So has Jesus. Have you been a parent and loved your children? So has Jesus (he loves us). It's all part of getting to know him as friend.
Jesus is a real person to me. Not only that, a real friend.Tonight is Christmas Eve, the night we celebrate his birth. There is a different feeling associated with this holiday than there is with any other.
Tonight my grandchildren gathered around and acted out the nativity. They pulled costumes out of Grandma's costume box and played the parts well. We had a hard time convincing little (3-yr-old) that there was a lady bug there too, as she was wearing a cute little lady bug costume. We had two Marys and two baby Jesus'. After the narration was over, my 4-year-old grandson politely finished the rest of the story, and corrected the mistakes made by the narrator, looking her directly in the eye, and he was right. We felt the spirit of Christ in our nativity presentation. Can't help saying, it is very real. There is a different feeling at Christmas than any other holiday.
Lou, I wish you the best. I don't understand a lot about other non christian religions, but I'm reading up on them. If more people would write on the faith board it would make this study easier. I think we have way more similarities than differences in belief.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2002, at 12:59:51
In reply to Re: Banning or Shunning? » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on December 24, 2002, at 1:55:18
> mormons can think of christians as christians and believe all the truths taught in all religions, but christians can't return that acceptance to mormons because of the Joseph Smith vision.
Keeping in mind that the idea here is not to jump to conclusions about others, to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, or to overgeneralize, could you please rephrase that? Thanks,
Bob
PS: Follow-ups regarding posting policies, and complaints about posts, should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration.
Posted by rayww on December 24, 2002, at 20:10:58
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » rayww, posted by Dr. Bob on December 24, 2002, at 12:59:51
Am I thinking in black and white again?
Attempt #1:
I believe there are more similarities in people and belief than there are differences.
Posted by Lou Pilder on December 25, 2002, at 7:26:47
In reply to Re: Banning or Shunning? » Lou Pilder, posted by rayww on December 24, 2002, at 1:55:18
rayww,
You wrote, [Lou, I wish you the best.]
I wish you the best also, and thanks for your response to my request for clarification.
Best regards,
Lou
This is the end of the thread.
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