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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 1:58:11
In reply to Re: Rationalism and Philosophy, posted by Dinah on October 17, 2002, at 16:21:16
> OK, Agreed.
Agreed? Success! :-) Thanks for this different point of view. Sorry I didn't get it at first...
Bob
PS: Now if IsoM and I could just agree, too... :-)
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 2:46:47
In reply to Re: Rationalism and Philosophy, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 1:58:11
"Now if IsoM and I could just agree, too..."
Ah, but I'm willing to discuss it further. I think I've shown some strong points in this discussion. This is what I mean by rational & logical thinking. Bring up point of view, back it up with logic & possible evidence, be prepared to confute what's not logical, misleading, and/or false evidence, & draw a conclusion.
Basically, it's not that different with the scientific method http://phyun5.ucr.edu/~wudka/Physics7/Notes_www/node5.html
What is a little different is, in science, one hopes to ultimately arrive at hard proof. In faith & beliefs, one is not able to present hard proof. But that doesn't mean one should leave reason, logic, & common sense behind.How valid is a belief system that's based on groundless (blind) faith? How much could one rely on, in a crunch, something that has no foundation to it, nothing solid to hold your faith in times of hardships, stress, & various problems? Faith should give one hope. What would anyone base his or her hope on if there wasn't something to show a good reason to do so.
I'm not American, but I'll use the States as most posters are from there. Almost everyone in the States knows that the country's in debt to more than 6 billion dollars. If the president was to tell the public that in one year, there'd be no more debt, how many would believe him? Wouldn't people want to know just how he was going to bring it about? Wouldn't they want some evidence to believe this? And what past evidence has he shown in money matters that would make them base their hope on it happening?
Now to balance the budget when it's in the red to the tune of 6 billion in one year seems a little much, but how about if he said he could have it balanced within one month? How about one week?
See? Something's are just not reasonable or logical. We don't accept that which doesn't make sense. People won't have blind faith in Bush just because he's the president & said he would. They'd want evident demonstration before they put their faith in him.
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 8:43:15
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 2:46:47
(I must be honest, IsoM. While I have no problems with the beliefs of anyone, as long as they don't cause anyone any harm, I do have problems with direct encounters with blind faith where I'm expected to agree with it. I just bought my new Sunday School study book, and it seems to suggest that mental illness can be overcome by prayer and that anyone unable to overcome, say, fear (including one overt example of OCD) by prayer and faith was sinful, since God told us directly not to fear. I checked with my husband to make sure my perception of the book was accurate, then decided to skip Sunday School for a couple of months. There are many in my class who find great comfort in faith without reason, but I'd find myself challenging their faith if I showed up for these classes, and I have no real desire to do that. Well, not too much anyway.)
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 9:29:45
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » IsoM, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 8:43:15
I bought a book while visiting Wendy this summer by Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science. The woman who sold it to me insisted I could be cured of anything by reading this book, even if I were an athiest. Many athiests, they said, had found this book successful in helping them eradicate their diseases.
Yes, I bought the book anyway, knowing that was a sales pitch. I can't bring myself to read it, so it has been collecting dust on the shelf upstairs.
Just recently, though, I bought a book called "Women's Bodies, Women's Wisdom" by an author I respect, Christianne (?) Northrop. In it, she talks about a colleague discussing a study done (I'm summarizing from memory here) involving prayer. All the people were sick, but some of them were prayed for by other people. No one knew who was being prayed for and who wasn't. Those who were prayed for got better in a significantly high percentage. When the doctor mentioned the study, all the other docs pooh-poohed it.
Northrop said that if this had been a medicine study, the findings would have been so overwhelming they'd be the latest thing.
beardy
P.S. I don't know what this has to do with anything, but maybe your Sunday school story sparked it.
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 9:51:03
In reply to Mary Baker Eddy » Dinah, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 9:29:45
Well, as I said, I have nothing against the faith of others. But were I to sit in class during this particular book, I migh feel compelled to bring up the fact that Luther and Wesley (and many others - amazing how the history of religion is filled with those suffering from OCD) didn't find that a fervent belief in God, prayer, or knowledge of the scriptures freed them from fear or guilt. And that, according to this book, they would be considered sinners for that fact. Now if that isn't an everlasting loop, I don't know what is. Can't overcome the fear and guilt, must be a sinner, so how as a sinner can I overcome the fear and guilt, therefore I must be a sinner. No wonder Luther (I think it was Luther) was prohibited by his priest from going to confession.
About the efficacy of prayer in a double blind study. I have heard it, and am willing to believe it, depending on methodology and the study being done a few times. But it brings up the dilemma of Job doesn't it? I once heard a woman tell quite earnestly and with complete belief a story. It seems the leader of her local church died from cancer, and his supervisor came and berated the church, saying that if they had prayed harder and with greater faith the man would have lived. Of course, I don't think it necessarily correlates that if outcome is better with prayer, then a negative outcome means a lack of faithful prayer.
Oh heavens, I'm sorry I brought it up. I just felt a bit guilty (OCD) for implying that I was completely OK with blind faith. I am completely OK with blind faith for others, but find myself rather uncomfortable in its midst, and my post was a confession of that fact. Nothing more or less. The fact that I'm uncomfortable with it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 18, 2002, at 10:27:22
In reply to Mary Baker Eddy » Dinah, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 9:29:45
Beardedlady,
I am not a member of Christian Church of Christ Scientist, but some people have told me that the experiance that I had could also have been experianced by others, including Mary Baker Eddy.
In what I am describng in my expeiance , The 7 Gates on the Road to the Crown of Life, it was pointed out to me by a person that did belong to the Church of Christ Scientist that my experiance was real to them for my experince led to my being able to ovrcome addiction and depression without drugs and their group agreed. The Spirit of God was revealed to me in my experiance to be perfect Love which caused in me to have all fear cast out of me.
In reference to your post about the prayer people that prayed for others, and some of the others were healed, it was revealed to me in my experiance that prayers by those that have been indwelled with the Spirit of God are effectve to cure others. I have witnessed healings of people that had others pray for their deliverance from afflictions.
Thanks for citing the study about praying for others.
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 18, 2002, at 11:05:04
In reply to Re: Mary Baker Eddy » BeardedLady, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 9:51:03
Dinah,
I am interested in the book that you are referring to. Could you give me the title, or/and the author,and any other infomation about the book so that I can obtain a copy of it?
If I can read the book then I will be better able to understand what you are saying in your post and it could help me to comunicate better in this disscuion.
Best Regards,
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 11:25:38
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 2:46:47
> > Now if IsoM and I could just agree, too...
>
> Ah, but I'm willing to discuss it further. I think I've shown some strong points in this discussion.I didn't mean to imply you weren't. And you certainly have. I just got too tired last night. :-)
> > …but it does seem to me that if evidence enters into it, so does interpretation of that evidence. Maybe what's being "demonstrated" is something else?
>
> Yes, it’s possible that it is something else but it wouldn’t be so very off target. Let’s get back to the black hole analogy (not the best one but I grabbed it out of the air quickly). Because there’s no real proof that there’s black holes, in the future as more evidence is gathered (& possibly a grand unifying theory is reached), we’ll find that this phenomenon that was believed to be black holes isn’t. But if it isn’t, it won’t be radically different. What’s discovered will still fit the data that’s been gathered & the math describing it. If it’s not a black hole, it’s going to be something awfully similar. We won’t find that it’s some huge orbiting dog in space.But new theories can in fact be radically different. The world being round vs. flat, for example...
> Ancient societies that thought the Earth was a flat disc didn’t take the evidence before their eyes into consideration. We find it amusing now how evident certain things were that primitive societies didn’t bother checking out.
Maybe there's data relevant to black holes that's before our eyes right now, but that we're not taking into consideration? Maybe future societies will find us amusing?
> - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> > And what about blind faith, anyway? Is that necessarily a lesser kind of faith? Wouldn't belief despite a lack of evidence [or evidence to the contrary] be a *stronger* belief? Leaping farther?
>
> Blind faith doesn’t mean a stronger belief – it means shutting your eyes to evidence, hence the term blind, rather than unseen faith.OK, I agree -- if someone really does shut their eyes -- but what if their eyes are open, they see it, and still they keep their faith?
> And if you say that everyone’s views & opinions should be given equal credence, then why isn’t an equal amount of money used to back these theories too?
Here, anyway, I'd like you to respect the views of others. But that doesn't mean you have to write them checks. :-)
> What bothers me is the fact that faith has become a ‘dirty’ word. People’s opinions have become clouded about faith because it’s been presented over & over that there doesn’t have to be a rationale for it.
I don't know how I ended up on this side of the issue :-) but why would not having a rationale dirty it? Wouldn't eyes-open, damn-the-evidence faith be the most "pure"?
> How valid is a belief system that's based on groundless (blind) faith?
Validity is in the eyes of the beholder? Since faith is personal?
> How much could one rely on, in a crunch, something that has no foundation to it, nothing solid to hold your faith in times of hardships, stress, & various problems? ... What would anyone base his or her hope on if there wasn't something to show a good reason to do so.
Maybe it's a leap of faith?
> I'm not American, but I'll use the States as most posters are from there. Almost everyone in the States knows that the country's in debt to more than 6 billion dollars. If the president was to tell the public that in one year, there'd be no more debt, how many would believe him?
Maybe not many. So it might be a small church. :-)
Bob
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 13:28:10
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 11:25:38
> Wouldn't eyes-open, damn-the-evidence faith be the most "pure"?
I think you're talking about something completely different here. There's the leap of faith, that Kierkegard describes, which is the one that Abraham took, but that's not what you're talking about, as there was really no evidence to the contrary.
Regarding "damn-the-evidence" faith, think of this. Are those who believe the emperor is not naked (which he clearly is) but is instead wearing clothing made of a special cloth exhibiting pure faith? Or are they misguided?
Then what about the thing that many try without success? Say, traveling around the world in the hot air balloon or swimming across the English Channel (before folks actually started doing it). Are they exhibiting pure faith? Or are they misguided?
Wouldn't it seem somewhat foolish to believe that two plus two is three, even thought we know it's four?
I guess I'm asking you to help me understand what you mean by "damn the evidence" kind of faith. Because as far as I'm concerned, no one can prove there is NO god. And that means religion is not "damn the evidence" faith.
I even think you can believe in a god and still believe in evolution.
> > I'm not American, but I'll use the States as most posters are from there. Almost everyone in the States knows that the country's in debt to more than 6 billion dollars. If the president was to tell the public that in one year, there'd be no more debt, how many would believe him?
You'd be surprised. How do you think he got to be president? (I am joking, of course.)
beardy : )>
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 18, 2002, at 13:35:57
In reply to pure faith v. damn-the-evidence faith + Iso » Dr. Bob, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 13:28:10
BL,
Thank you for bringing forth that as far as you are concerned, NO one can prove that there is not a God.
Lou
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:01:21
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 11:25:38
Will write more in a couple of days, but need to be busy elsewhere.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 16:10:38
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:01:21
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:11:00
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » IsoM, posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 8:43:15
Dinah, I won't go into length here about the views that faith & prayer should heal ills, but wish to say that if one's religion takes a firm view this way, that's fine by me. But if it's said that it's a Biblical teaching, I beg to differ.
It's NOT Biblical. If they wish to feel faith & prayer can cure ills - fine, but I dislike the idea presented that it's the Bible's view. It isn't. I could point out many instances in the Bible to show it.
The idea of creating further problems for someone already ill by having them think it's their fault & their faith is weak is a cruel idea to perpetuate on anyone. Yes, our minds can do much to influence our physical health, but only because a good attitude helps strengthen our immune system in ways not fully understood yet. But there's many ills that the best attitude could never influence at all.
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:12:04
In reply to Nuh uh! LOL! (nm) » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 16:10:38
Now what's that supposed to mean, my goofy friend?
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 16:27:06
In reply to Re: Mary Baker Eddy » Dinah, posted by Lou Pilder on October 18, 2002, at 11:05:04
I'm sorry Lou, but I wouldn't feel right giving the name of the book. I'm sure it helps many people and I would feel bad about saying something negative about a specific book, especially a faith based book. I'm also sure that my class will get a lot of benefit from it.
Posted by Dinah on October 18, 2002, at 16:31:20
In reply to Re: Faith and Health » Dinah, posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:11:00
Yes, IsoM. That is my view as well. Precisely.
I think it was the sin part that really got to me. Perhaps I'll give it a week to see if my Sunday School teacher presents that part in the lesson.
Posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 16:41:31
In reply to Re: Nuh uh! LOL! » BeardedLady, posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 16:12:04
Didn't you get your e-mail? Sheesh.
Posted by IsoM on October 18, 2002, at 17:23:10
In reply to It means nuh-uh, you don't have other stuff to do! » IsoM, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 16:41:31
Hah! Yes, I *do* have other stuff to do, not earth-shaking but necessary, so there!
"blbth, blbth, blbth" --sound of tongue sticking out giving you a wet Bronx cheer--I can whip off a quick reply to most posts but if I'm going to "debate" or whatever I do here, I need to recharge my brain & give it a rest by doing something physical (like cleaning my place). I figure it's pretty important 'cause I can't even find my can-opener. All philosophy & no food makes Judy a very stupid girl.
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 22:21:40
In reply to pure faith v. damn-the-evidence faith + Iso » Dr. Bob, posted by BeardedLady on October 18, 2002, at 13:28:10
> > Wouldn't eyes-open, damn-the-evidence faith be the most "pure"?
>
> I think you're talking about something completely different here. There's the leap of faith, that Kierkegard describes, which is the one that Abraham took, but that's not what you're talking about, as there was really no evidence to the contrary.Yes, I suppose we have 3 subtypes so far: (1) eyes-closed faith, (2) faith with no evidence either way, or with conflicting evidence, and (3) faith with evidence to the contrary. :-)
> Regarding "damn-the-evidence" faith, think of this. Are those who believe the emperor is not naked (which he clearly is) but is instead wearing clothing made of a special cloth exhibiting pure faith? Or are they misguided?
"Pure" faith that others consider misguided?
> as far as I'm concerned, no one can prove there is NO god. And that means religion is not "damn the evidence" faith.
So the question is whether there's evidence that there's no god? Beats me, now you're out of my area of expertise. :-)
Bob
Posted by BeardedLady on October 19, 2002, at 7:51:19
In reply to Re: classification of types of faith, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 22:21:40
> > Regarding "damn-the-evidence" faith, think of this. Are those who believe the emperor is not naked (which he clearly is) but is instead wearing clothing made of a special cloth exhibiting pure faith? Or are they misguided?
>
> "Pure" faith that others consider misguided?Well, not really. If the emperor's naked and folks have faith that the person who told them he was clothed was telling the truth, isn't that misguided, since the truth is...
Okay, better with this: two plus two is not three, no matter how much faith you have that it is.
So it's not simply misguided to others, is it?
> So the question is whether there's evidence that there's no god? Beats me, now you're out of my area of expertise. :-)Oh, yeah. Outta mine, too!
beardy
Posted by Dr. Bob on October 20, 2002, at 17:15:04
In reply to Re: classification of types of faith, posted by BeardedLady on October 19, 2002, at 7:51:19
> Okay, better with this: two plus two is not three, no matter how much faith you have that it is.
OK, you got me there. :-)
Bob
Posted by IsoM on October 21, 2002, at 15:42:11
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation, posted by Dr. Bob on October 18, 2002, at 11:25:38
Back to the discussion but I won't stay long.
There's diff ways to view the definition of faith. All I wanted to have made known that for those who value logic, rational thinking processes, empirical evidence, & credibility (in short, a scientific view), faith does NOT have to be a dirty word. It doesn't have to mean closing your eyes to truth & facts. It doesn't mean having to suspend reason. And it doesn't mean that one needs "blind" faith. It means looking at & gathering the available evidence & basing your faith on that without ignoring other evidence.
If someone wishes to believe what's incredulous to me because it 'feels right' to them, that's fine. But I don't wish to see just that one view of faith as defining all of what faith SHOULD define. That's why in my first post, I wrote what the actual Bible's definition of faith meant & that it can be quite different from what most people think of when they hear the word 'faith'.
"You can fool some of the people, all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time." Eventually, the truth will be known & that which is false will be discarded. Endless debates that go nowhere are tiresome (not that I'm implying by that that it was a bother though). I have nothing more to say.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 15:59:48
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » Dr. Bob, posted by IsoM on October 21, 2002, at 15:42:11
ISO M,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. I agree with you that faith , as the bible states it, and could be much different from what most people think of when they hear the word "faith".
I am not a bible student, but I have a friend that I consider to have a true bible faith. He says that the bible says that bible faith means that a person's life will exibit what the bible says to do. He says that unless a person's life shows that the person puts forth the things that the bible says one will be blessed for, then that person's faith is considered to be a dead faith. He says that faith must be a Living Faith. One that shows that you are a believer in what the bible says to do. Then he cited a verse from the book of James to me , which was, "Faith without works is dead." Could you tell me if this is something that you are refering to when you talk about your beleif of what bible faith is or is your understanding different from what I have describe from what my bible believing friend said? If you could tell me that, then I could have a better understanding of what bible faih is and be better able to participate in this discussion.
Thanks again for your contribution to this thread.
Lou
Posted by IsoM on October 21, 2002, at 17:33:38
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » IsoM, posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 15:59:48
I don't mind answering your question, Lou, but have no wish to further discuss matters in this forum. I agree with Dinah that I'd rather not discuss my views in forums. It's hardly the best medium for a truly meaningful discussion. So I'm answering your current question but I'd prefer not to continue the discussion & won't be answering further questions from anyone.
Yes, in James, it does say that "faith without works is dead". It's pretty obvious. If a research hospital stated that it has had a cure for a certain disease for a number of years now but had no examples of anyone being treated & cured, it would be a groundless claim. Genuine faith (as defined in the Bible - I'm not talking of other definitions of faith) requires understanding & knowledge of the Bible, understanding of the evidence plus true heart-felt appreciation of what this evidence points to. While faith requires sound reasoning processes & the use of logic, it's not something reserved for the highly intelligent or highly educated only. Knowledge is needed for genuine faith but faith is something that comes from an appreciative heart. (Rom. 10:10 "for with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness...")
Believing something to be true is not the same as exercising faith. The word 'exercise' implies that there's some sort of action with regard to faith. In James 2: 19, it says that the demons believe in God but shudder. Verse 20 goes on to say that faith apart from works is empty. James' comments were directed to those who thought they could earn "righteousness" by lots of good works. He told them it was important, but so was faith. The two work hand-in-hand, not separately from each other.
Something that I bear in mind is no one is perfect no matter how hard they might try. We all makes mistakes, slips, errors, if not always in action, at least in thought. The word sin in the Bible (Hebrew -chat-ta'th'; Greek - ha-mar-ti'a) simply means to miss a mark or goal. These word forms have also been used to describe when a person throws a spear or shoots an arrow & doesn't hit the target directly on. Hence, the words at I John 1:8 saying that if anyone says he's without sin, he's misleading himself. We ALL miss the mark of perfection, of achieving what we would hope to fully be.
So I don't browbeat myself over the normal everyday mistakes one makes, but do try to do better. And I make sure that mistakes don't become entrenched into patterns of 'oracticing' something that's wrong. But we can't 'earn' righteousness.
I'm also aware of another scripture that says (James 4:17) that "if one knows how to do what is right & yet does not do it, it is a sin for him." I think most would agree to that. If we had the means to help, or to do what is right, but didn't, it's wrong. It would be a sin. How much would someone think of another if that person stood & watched a neighbour's house burn without calling the fire department or running & banging on their front door - anything that might help. But if another was to see the same fire & want to help but were crippled, lying in bed helpless, not rushing to help isn't a sin for them.
I do my best to practice what I believe without being self-righteous (& I try to keep a mental check to not act as such) - I try to give to my faith, works. Sorry, Lou, forums aren't suitable for discussions of this sort. I won't bother posting here more. No one's been rude or such, I just don't wish to continue, but did answer your question.
Posted by Lou Pilder on October 21, 2002, at 18:48:53
In reply to Re: Agreement or Confutation » Lou Pilder, posted by IsoM on October 21, 2002, at 17:33:38
ISO M,
Thank you for your reply to my post. I like what you said about "hearts". If you change your mind to want to return to this discussion, could you talk about "hearts"?
A man once told me that when you are down to seek the Lord your God and you shall find Him if you seek Him wih all your Heart and all your soul.
Lou
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