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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by fachad on July 24, 2002, at 21:22:20
Does anybody here read Ken Wilber?
I'm re-reading Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality right now. It's really a fantastic book - absolutely breathtaking. That book, and Wilber's writing in general, showed me a way out of the dilemma of reductive materialism and nihilism.
I always intuitively knew that I had a spirit; but honesty and rationality seemed to force me into accepting reductive materialism. (That's the view that ultimately, all we are is a collection of molecules, and that everything that is, can be explained in terms of matter and reduced to interactions of matter.)
Anyway, I just wonder if anyone here has read or is reading Wilber.
Posted by tabitha on July 25, 2002, at 1:15:50
In reply to Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber?, posted by fachad on July 24, 2002, at 21:22:20
Hi,
I have not read it but it sounds interesting. Do you think you could summarize the ideas a bit for us?
Posted by BarbaraCat on July 30, 2002, at 0:49:18
In reply to Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber?, posted by fachad on July 24, 2002, at 21:22:20
Yes, in my opinion he is one of the most brilliant contemporary minds alive. I haven't read the book you mention yet, but plan to. For a poignant personal look into his life, Grace and Grit is beautiful, the story of the time during his wife's dying from cancer. Have you read Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet'? Fascinating, simply fascinating.
> Does anybody here read Ken Wilber?
>
> I'm re-reading Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality right now. It's really a fantastic book - absolutely breathtaking. That book, and Wilber's writing in general, showed me a way out of the dilemma of reductive materialism and nihilism.
>
> I always intuitively knew that I had a spirit; but honesty and rationality seemed to force me into accepting reductive materialism. (That's the view that ultimately, all we are is a collection of molecules, and that everything that is, can be explained in terms of matter and reduced to interactions of matter.)
>
> Anyway, I just wonder if anyone here has read or is reading Wilber.
>
Posted by fachad on July 31, 2002, at 9:37:30
In reply to Re: Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber? Yes » fachad, posted by BarbaraCat on July 30, 2002, at 0:49:18
I havent' read Grace and Grit yet, but it's on my list. Never heard of Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet', but I'll look into it.
'A Brief History of Everything' is a much more accessable introduction to Wilber's system than the massive 'Sex, Ecology, and Sprituality'. It was actually written to be a sort of Cliff Notes or easy, condensed version of SES.
-fachad
> Yes, in my opinion he is one of the most brilliant contemporary minds alive. I haven't read the book you mention yet, but plan to. For a poignant personal look into his life, Grace and Grit is beautiful, the story of the time during his wife's dying from cancer. Have you read Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet'? Fascinating, simply fascinating.
>
> > Does anybody here read Ken Wilber?
> >
> > I'm re-reading Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality right now. It's really a fantastic book - absolutely breathtaking. That book, and Wilber's writing in general, showed me a way out of the dilemma of reductive materialism and nihilism.
> >
> > I always intuitively knew that I had a spirit; but honesty and rationality seemed to force me into accepting reductive materialism. (That's the view that ultimately, all we are is a collection of molecules, and that everything that is, can be explained in terms of matter and reduced to interactions of matter.)
> >
> > Anyway, I just wonder if anyone here has read or is reading Wilber.
> >
>
>
Posted by BarbaraCat on August 1, 2002, at 0:55:39
In reply to Re: Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber? Yes, posted by fachad on July 31, 2002, at 9:37:30
Fachad,
It's been awhile since I've read Ken. Please explain more about how he's helping you through materialism and nihisism. I'm feeling especially nihilistic these days and could use a cliff notes on the cliff notes. - BarbaraCat> I havent' read Grace and Grit yet, but it's on my list. Never heard of Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet', but I'll look into it.
>
> 'A Brief History of Everything' is a much more accessable introduction to Wilber's system than the massive 'Sex, Ecology, and Sprituality'. It was actually written to be a sort of Cliff Notes or easy, condensed version of SES.
>
> -fachad
>
> > Yes, in my opinion he is one of the most brilliant contemporary minds alive. I haven't read the book you mention yet, but plan to. For a poignant personal look into his life, Grace and Grit is beautiful, the story of the time during his wife's dying from cancer. Have you read Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet'? Fascinating, simply fascinating.
> >
> > > Does anybody here read Ken Wilber?
> > >
> > > I'm re-reading Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality right now. It's really a fantastic book - absolutely breathtaking. That book, and Wilber's writing in general, showed me a way out of the dilemma of reductive materialism and nihilism.
> > >
> > > I always intuitively knew that I had a spirit; but honesty and rationality seemed to force me into accepting reductive materialism. (That's the view that ultimately, all we are is a collection of molecules, and that everything that is, can be explained in terms of matter and reduced to interactions of matter.)
> > >
> > > Anyway, I just wonder if anyone here has read or is reading Wilber.
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by fachad on August 2, 2002, at 1:15:11
In reply to Re: Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber? Yes » fachad, posted by BarbaraCat on August 1, 2002, at 0:55:39
>Please explain more about how he's helping you through materialism and nihilism.
I grew up in a very religious home. I really believed the Bible and everything I was taught in Church. I believed that my soul was immortal, and would go on forever - in heaven or in hell - but forever.
Then when I was 17 my mind began to mull it all over and after much study and contemplation, I decided it was all untrue. Christianity and other world religions were just myths made up in a time before we had science. This was fine and good but it meant that when my body died, there was no soul to go one. Death is final.
The whole idea that I had believed a lie my whole life horrified me. I majored in Philosophy in college, and specialized in Epistemology, which is the branch of philosophy that deals with knowledge and how you KNOW what you know. I wanted to be sure I would not duped again.
Anyway, there is a very pervasive trend in modern philosophy and science to unconditionally accept the world view known as "reductive materialism". This worldview holds that the only thing that is really real is matter. Atoms colliding in the void. Life is reduced to biological processes; mental experiences are reduced to neuroanatomy and neurochemistry, etc. It's just a meaningless dance of matter.
Wilber shows a way out of this limited worldview by the idea of interiors and exteriors. The scientific method looks at exterior surfaces only. But interiors cannot be directly observed, they can only be interpreted intersubjectively.
For example, you could take a copy of Hamlet, and weigh it, measure it, determine it's chemical composition, etc. but that would not tell you anything about the story. Even a scientific observation of the text would tell you nothing. To understand it, you must read it, relate it to your experiences. That intersubjective dimensions of meaning can never be directly observed, it must be interpreted.
Another example would be depression. Think about these two statements:
#1 "Jane is sorrowful and in prolonged mourning because her beloved pet has died"
#2 "Jane has low levels of 5-HT in her raphe nucules. This chemical imbalance may have been precipitated by some change in her environment."
Modern psychiatry may try to convince us that #2 is a more accurate statement, but it is really not. The reason is that although sorrow or other mental states may have correlation with some observable external things like neurotransmitters, they are never completely reducible to only external surfaces.
It’s late, and I fear I have garbled the argument somewhat, but that's the basic idea.
> Fachad,
> It's been awhile since I've read Ken. Please explain more about how he's helping you through materialism and nihisism. I'm feeling especially nihilistic these days and could use a cliff notes on the cliff notes. - BarbaraCat
>
> > I havent' read Grace and Grit yet, but it's on my list. Never heard of Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet', but I'll look into it.
> >
> > 'A Brief History of Everything' is a much more accessable introduction to Wilber's system than the massive 'Sex, Ecology, and Sprituality'. It was actually written to be a sort of Cliff Notes or easy, condensed version of SES.
> >
> > -fachad
> >
> > > Yes, in my opinion he is one of the most brilliant contemporary minds alive. I haven't read the book you mention yet, but plan to. For a poignant personal look into his life, Grace and Grit is beautiful, the story of the time during his wife's dying from cancer. Have you read Leonard Schlain's 'The Goddess and the Alphabet'? Fascinating, simply fascinating.
> > >
> > > > Does anybody here read Ken Wilber?
> > > >
> > > > I'm re-reading Sex, Ecology, and Spirituality right now. It's really a fantastic book - absolutely breathtaking. That book, and Wilber's writing in general, showed me a way out of the dilemma of reductive materialism and nihilism.
> > > >
> > > > I always intuitively knew that I had a spirit; but honesty and rationality seemed to force me into accepting reductive materialism. (That's the view that ultimately, all we are is a collection of molecules, and that everything that is, can be explained in terms of matter and reduced to interactions of matter.)
> > > >
> > > > Anyway, I just wonder if anyone here has read or is reading Wilber.
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by barbaracat on August 2, 2002, at 2:14:47
In reply to Re: Anybody Else Here Read Ken Wilber? Yes » BarbaraCat, posted by fachad on August 2, 2002, at 1:15:11
Ah yes, I remember his interiors and exteriors from an article in I believe it was Transformations mag. It struck me so positively that I made a mental note to get SES. I forgot all about this, so thanks.
I also had a very religious upbringing - a strict catholic home and went to parochial school with a clutch of homicidal nuns. Even with the terror instilled in me to never question 'God's representatives here on Earth', I started questioning in earnest around 7th grade. Went through acid drenched sojourns into the seven circles of heaven and hell, eastern religions, TM, buddhism, bible study, course in miracles, est, yoga, etc, etc. Everything I could get my hands on to address the burning questions and yearning I have for... what? I don't know, except that I feel so very homesick for somewhere else where kittens don't die from cold and starvation, where people are simply kind and decent to each other, and it's not so horribly difficult to find a fulfilling and supportive livelihood that makes one happy. The Buddhist philosophy comes out far ahead of any 'religion', especially in it's beautiful psychological depth, but I'll never be a purist in any one camp. Even so, with all the bad taste in my mouth re the abuses of the Catholic church and the bigotry of Christianity, I sure do love Jesus. He's my greatest teacher and influence, but he's not at all similar to the cat who insists we all must be washed in his blood or be forever more banished to the fiery realms. I have no use for any spiritual teaching that instills this kind of toxic fear and guilt. For this reason, I love The Course in Miracles and am feeling drawn to working with it again. It's the best remedy I know for nihilism and I'm in need of a remedy these days. - BarbaraCat
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