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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
Dear All,
I'd be interested in people's experiences of their previous faiths (if they had one), and what, if anything, they swiched to, in order to find more solace, or deeper understanding of their purpose on the planet, that sort of thing. Sometimes the religion we're born into doesn't really "speak" to us as adults (or quaisi-adults, for some of us!).
As for me, I was baptized Catholic as an infant (before my soul could be sold to the devil? or simply so I could be "saved" if I were to die young?) My mother divorced my father when I was 1 or so, and the Catholic church wouldn't let her back in their doors because she had broken her vows, 'til death do them part,' even though my father was an alcoholic and could not get better, and my mother felt she had to leave him. But the church said she should have stayed married...
In our next phase, my siblings and I were taken to our step-father's Baptist church in small-town NY state, a really smothering environment. None of us ever took an interest in the Jesus concept, even if we acknowledged him as a cool dude who hung out with prostitutes and lepers... We could not accept the son-of-god, holy-trinity regulations, just never bought into the concepts. None of us ever went to church for an extended period as adults. Anyway, my having a child made me re-think some of my dogmatic "I'll never go to church again"-type thinking, and I have been a Unitarian of late; they allow ex-catholics, blacks, browns, gays, lesbians, Wiccans, everybody, into the fold, as it were. I am thinking of joining the Wiccan group that meets there, have been reading more about the history of modern witchcraft, by Ann Moura: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1567186483/drbobsvirte00-20
(If this isn't linking to Dr Bob's Amazon link, how do I do that?)
I like the few things I have found out, specifically (early in the book) about the 6,000-yr old traditions (Indus Valley, Mohenjo-daro culture) from which witchcraft derives some of its main tenets. Moura says:
(quote)
"...in all the Indus cities and communities, there are no signs of any temple structure. These people were reputed to have been unusually tolerant of varying ideas, and loved to discuss conflicting concepts. They kept shrines in their homes, but apparently had no centralized clergy and no priesthood. Each person was responsible for his/her own worship, yet there is art work to suggest that the community would gather for special occasions marked by agricultural events, solstices, and moon phases." (p.22)
(end of quote)The main things I respond to so far are the fact that there was no centralized clergy, that each person could be his or her own priest/ess. This feels empowering to me, and for the first time (as opposed to even Unitarianism), my daughter has responded in a strong way to the fact that she could make the world a place for herself, by casting spells or other strong-woman-type acts. Sort of like manifesting what you want to have happen, and finding that it works. The group gatherings for festivals of the sun and moon, and for agricultural celebrations, is also a much more sensible, nature-oriented way to connect with the cosmos, I respond to that well. I prefer to think that the home should hold the shrine, i.e., there is a sense of a "personalized" devotion, no churches or temples are necessary.
My thoughts on these things are in their infancy, so if I've misrepresented something that someone else understands more completely, feel free to correct. I'm just a pup.
Wonder if anyone else has anything to say about where/how/why they've ended up where thay have, in a religious sense. If someone wants to talk about why they stayed in their family-religion, that would be interesting, too, no doubt.
"Faithfully" yours,
and here's to civility,Wendy
Posted by sid on May 28, 2002, at 23:59:31
In reply to Giving up on one, trying another, posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
I was also baptized a Catholic, although even my parents never went to church much. In my culture, religion was oppressive for centuries, until the 1970's, when there was a "mind" revolution (the quiet revolution, it's called). Since then, people are atheist, agnostic, have stayed with the roman catholic church or have turned to other religions and sects even. Although I tend to think that most people (in my culture, still) are either agnostic, or they have spiritual beliefs without belonging to a specific religion (not actively anyway, like me - on paper I'm a catholic, in reality I'm not practicing). Religion has become a personal rather than a social thing, a bit like sex is a personal thing. So in general, I don't speak about my religious beliefs, just like I tend not to talk about my sex life with everybody. I consider it a very personal thing, and I usually don't like people asking about it, or telling me about their religious beliefs and practices. Except perhaps in a multicultural setting, where inter-cultural exchange would be the main objective, rather than religion itself. But hey - I've talked about sex on these pages, so why not about relogions too?
I guess I'm a typical product of my generation and educational rank. I am agnostic. I can't figure out if God exists or not, so why spend a lifetime trying to figure it out, or devoting myself to something that may not exist? I think that if God exists, then life after death might too, but I won't know until I'm dead, which I'm not eager to achieve. I have some spiritual connection with nature however - I find it soothing, and I find my purpose in it. I'm part of nature and nature is part of me. That's as far as I go these days in my spirituality. I find comfort in meditation and viniyoga - my thoughts, my though processes, "being inside my head and feeling good about it" is what grounds me. Admiring nature does it too. Listening to music sometimes too. As far as how I live, I think I have high moral standards, and I admire that in others. Not because I am afraud of God or because my religion tells me, rather, because I was raised like that, and because I value that. I do not hurt someone purposefully, and in the same way, I don't let others hurt me or the people I live and feel that I should defend. On top of that, if I still have time and energy to do good for others, then I'm glad to do it. That's my basic way of living, based on my values rather than religion.
I tend not to like organized religion. They have been, and many still are, tools of control and repression over the millenia, and I don't condone that. Also, I have met many supposedly religious people who went to church every week who did terrible things to others, so that's not something I'm impressed with (someone being religious). Actions speak for themselves, rather than appearances. I prefer people who have high morals but do not necessarily associate with an organized religion or do not broadcast their good deeds everywhere. I also tend to think that a world without religion would be a happier one - just think of all the conflicts in the world that are caused by religious conflicts! The massacres, the aculturation, etc. - religion is unfortunately often related to power, politics and money.
I know I won't be popular for what I wrote here, but that's OK. People are entitled to their beliefs and religious associations. Me too. So in general, I'm not crazy about religion, any religion, even mine. High morals and the ability to be amazed by the people and the nature that surrounds us speaks to me a lot more than any religion could.
- sid
Posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 7:27:10
In reply to Agnostic but spiritual » wendy b., posted by sid on May 28, 2002, at 23:59:31
I was raised Jewish. When I was 11, I was thrown out of (asked to leave) Sunday school for asking why god would allow the Holocaust--over and over again. I just couldn't believe it. We went to synagogue a few more times in my life, mostly on the high holidays, but that was it. My family wasn't religious.
Now that I have a daughter, I don't feel any differently. I don't want to be a hypocrite. If it caused problems for me as a child, if it wasn't a positive, unifying experience then, I will not force my daughter to go through it.
But we have a wrench in the works. My husband teaches private Catholic school, and we live in the city, where schools suck. My kid gets free tuition--from Christian pre-school through Catholic elementary and middle. My mom is in knots. The thought of it is making her sick (already the Jesus songs are coming home, and I have a hard time with them--especially since they're these awful words put to happy children's songs; ex. [to "B-I-N-G-O"] There was a man from galilee and Jesus was his name-o, J-E-S-U-S...). So she thinks (and she is right) that I should balance that Catholic stuff with Sunday school.
As for me, I believe in something, but I'm not sure what it is. I read a bunch of books on Buddhism over the fall but decided it's not for me. I squash too many bugs, na' mean? My karmic debt will be huge, and I'll probably return as a mosquito.
I like the idea of the Unitarian church, but the leaders around here have been a little wussy, if you know what I mean. So far, reform Judaism, which teaches some lovely things and values family and diversity and education, is still my choice. I love the traditions and rituals. I love the food. (And the Jewish religion is really more ethnicity and food than anything else!) And I love the modern, folksy nature of some of our cantors.
As for spirituality, I'm sure I have some. Oh, yes. There it is. Sometimes it's hard to find; I misplace things, you know.
Please let me recommend a wonderful book on the topic. I'm sure I'm not saying the name of a stranger, as she is a well-loved author (I believe I've heard her name on the board a few times). Anne Lamott's "Traveling Mercies" is the finest, most spiritual book I've read. If you have not read it, let me tell you: It's not like reading. It's like opening a present. Sometimes, though, the gift is a little sad. But overall, it's enriching.
beardy : )>
Posted by judy1 on May 29, 2002, at 12:35:12
In reply to Re: Athiest, but believe in something, posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 7:27:10
I've ordered her book- it looked fascinating. I have been on a quest for spirituality, both my shrink and therp have felt it's an important component of my life that I lack. Also raised Catholic and confused and dabbled in many religions, but with children- ah, what to do. I smiled at your rendition of J-E-S-U-S beardy, and imagine your Mom must be having fits. Take care, Judy
Posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 13:39:50
In reply to Thank you » beardedlady, posted by judy1 on May 29, 2002, at 12:35:12
Posted by mair on May 29, 2002, at 15:32:20
In reply to Let me know how you like it! (nm) » judy1, posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 13:39:50
Beardy
Have you read "Bird by Bird?"
Mair
Posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 15:39:23
In reply to Another Lamott book » beardedlady, posted by mair on May 29, 2002, at 15:32:20
Especially the part where she explains the title of the book. I use that in my class all the time. Lamott is quite a brilliant and funny writer. I have not, however, read "Operating Instructions," but I hope to in the near future. (I've read a third, but the title escapes me.)
birdy beardy : )>
Posted by mair on May 30, 2002, at 12:47:50
In reply to Read it. Loved it. » mair, posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 15:39:23
I have also used the title story - with my children. I think she writes so gracefully - almost effortless although of course you know it's not effortless.
I had a copy of "operating Instructions" but my dog (then puppy) decided it would make a great chew toy, so I never actually read it. She also wrote a novel - I think the name is "Rosie."
I guess I'll have to check out Traveling Mercies. Faith memoirs do not appeal to me, but I sure do love the way she writes.
Mair
Posted by beardedlady on May 30, 2002, at 13:46:03
In reply to Re: Read it. Loved it. » beardedlady, posted by mair on May 30, 2002, at 12:47:50
Mair:
I thought the same thing, but I had just read "Bird By Bird," and I saw this in Costco for a low price, so I bought it. When I realized what it was, I set it in the bathroom (for my bathtub read) and forgot about it. I picked it up and read the first page one morning, and I was hooked. It's not what you would expect, and I think you'll find it works for just about anything. As I said, I'm not a religious person. This was underbearing.
I just ordered "Operating Instructions" and a novel that I think is called "All New People." (Who looks at titles when one is spending money?)
Let me know how you like it after you read it.
beardy : )>
Posted by SuzyQ on May 31, 2002, at 1:28:50
In reply to Faith memoirs, et. al. » mair, posted by beardedlady on May 30, 2002, at 13:46:03
nt
Posted by Lini on May 31, 2002, at 13:36:46
In reply to Giving up on one, trying another, posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
I am a Baha'i. I think you might find it interesting, but one of the "rules" is no prosyltizing, so I'll just provide a link.www.bahai.org
It found me at a crucial time in my life, when I spent a summer in Israel . . . still flounder in terms of being a good Baha'i, but it does provide the best approximation of my beliefs.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 31, 2002, at 19:40:55
In reply to Agnostic but spiritual » wendy b., posted by sid on May 28, 2002, at 23:59:31
[Posted by psycho on May 30, 2002, at 23:02:54]
> ...I prefer people who have high morals but do not necessarily associate with an organized religion or do not broadcast their good deeds everywhere.... High morals and the ability to be amazed by the people and the nature that surrounds us speaks to me a lot more than any religion could.
> >
> > - sid
> Sid,
> I agree with you. I believe that the truth of someone's faith should be seen by there day to day behavior.
>
> "This is how you shall know my disciples, by the love they show one to another." Jesus
>
> Nature also draws the faith out of me, because it suggests a creator. I just can't imagine the world beginning through a series of accidents. There's just too much order for that.
>
> If I were to state my religious belief in one word, that word would be love. When we abide in love, we can do no harm. This is the ultimate goal for me.
> Yet here's the rub. I keep falling short. In my own strength I can do nothing. So I have engaged in a life-long pursuit of the Creator. Hoping that I may come to know Him. And when I can know him, I can love like him. And he must have loved us. How else could it be?
> Sincerely,
> Psycho
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 31, 2002, at 19:42:56
In reply to Re: Agnostic but spiritual « psycho, posted by Dr. Bob on May 31, 2002, at 19:40:55
[Posted by JonW on May 31, 2002, at 0:34:04]
> Hi psysho,
>
> All I can says is... AMEN TO THAT!! no pun inteaded, of course ;) The world is fulll of beauty, why do we have to imprisson it in a religious context? And I hate when organized religion tries to get involved with the governement, or when its' oppossition to logical scientific thinking infects our youth. So this thread should be redirected by the time I post, but I just wanted to get my .02 in! Here's a great quote form Geroge Carlin:
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> George Carlin on BullShit
> (From a 1997 HBO special.)
>
> "When it comes to BullShit, truly major league BullShit, you have to stand back in awe of the truly heavyweight champion of false promises and exaggerated claims:
>
> Religion. Organized religion.
>
> It is no contest.
>
> Religion easily has the best BullShit story of all time.
>
> Religion has convinced people that there is an invisible man living in the sky, who watches everything you do for every minute of every day.
>
> And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things that he doesn't want you to do.
>
> If you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place of burning and fire and smoke and anguish for you to live forever and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time.
>
> But he loves you.
>
> He loves you and he needs money.
>
> He always needs money.
> He is all-powerful, all wise, all present, all knowing.
>
> He just can't handle money.
>
> Religion takes in billions and billions of dollars.
> They pay no taxes.
> But somehow they always need money.
>
> You talk about a good BullShit story...
>
> If I may be permitted a small pun: Holy Shit!"
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> Jon
Posted by Zo on June 7, 2002, at 3:58:32
In reply to Re: Athiest, but believe in something, posted by beardedlady on May 29, 2002, at 7:27:10
Posted by InsomniaMom on June 7, 2002, at 15:06:03
In reply to Giving up on one, trying another, posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
When my last therapist learned that I was not Catholic, she was surprised because I have so much trouble with guilt. My mother was raised in a small southern town in a strict Church of Christ family. One of her brothers is convinced we are all going to hell because she raised us in other protestant churches: Presbyterian, Methodist and the oh so wild Baptist church!
One of my earliest memories is of a recurring nightmare I had as a child in which my mother told me if I was not in bed asleep by midnight that the devil would come and get me. I asked how I would know him and she said he drove a pickup truck. (Don't know where that came from...we were living in suburban California then). Well, sure enough (even an insomniac back then, I guess) in my dream the clock struck midnight and I heard the truck pull up. My point of view (being very small) was of the doorknob, my mother's hand and the devil's hand. I'll never forget that image of my mother just handing me over to that red-clawed hand when the door opened and me screaming and crying for her not to let him take me. In subsequent dreams I sometimes saw a screaming, red devil's face that would always wake me up in a panic.
Well, this may be getting too long to include my answer to the original poster's question. But I'm guessing it's probably obvious I have some pretty troubled thoughts about organized religion (not to mention co-dependency issues with my mother). My husband (another Dr. Bob!)was raised Baptist and is now atheist. We did raise our daughter with Judeo-Christian values and celebrate Christmas, but it is more as a family holiday than a religious one.
We are both interested in relgious history and he has been relaying some interesting information from some Joseph Campbell lectures he's been listening to. I have always been in search of something more spiritual and do feel a nice connection with a supreme "energy" when I take the time to meditate or do yoga, but with my concentration levels of late there's not much of that happening. I am intested in learning more about the Ba'hai faith (a pdoc actually suggested it for me)and Unitarianism.
I was very impressed with what most people posted here and happy that some of my sentiments were stated more eloquently than I could state them.
Peace to you all.
Posted by Tabitha on June 9, 2002, at 5:12:49
In reply to Giving up on one, trying another, posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
Hi,
Highlights from my spiritual history:
Occasional force church attendance (Methodist) as a child. Found it provided nothing. I tried, really I tried, as a child to get something out of it, but nothing. It seemed no one else got much out of it either. It was some kind of social respectability to go is all.
After I had left home my brother and mother got into the Pentecostal church in a big way. My mother was baptised, got the Holy Ghost, started following their dress rules (no makeup, skirts only, hair uncut). My parents divorced over it. For years she quit sending letters, just Pentecostal propganda, occasionally a little personal note in the margins. She and my brother could not grasp that I wasn't into the Bible, and that I didn't worry about whether I was going to heaven or hell.
In college my boyfriend got into the Way International (sort of a Bible cult leftover from the 70's) and to try to hang onto him I went to their introductory class. Got nothing out of it. Toward the end we all had to share what we got out of it. People saying they had found what they were looking for, how wonderful it was, etc. I felt utterly alone. On the last class we had to speak in tongues, all in unison. It felt really fake but I did it. The boyfriend left ne anyway, to work for the Way. I fell apart, felt like everyone I loved abandoned me for some nutty religion. I starting hanging out with artists and dropouts. Attempted suicide, rather feebly.
Later in graduate school, the next boyfriend (an artist dropout) used hallucinogens in search of religious experiences. I took more of a recreational approach, but then I met God while on mushrooms. Honestly, God showed me all of creation from a great distance, it looked kind of like the Mandelbrot set, or a big kaleidescope. Indescribably beautiful. I asked God why? Why all this? Why create? God answered with a big rush of love. Wow. I get chills remembering it. After that experience everything seemed precious and I felt teary-eyed and sentimental for days. Unfortunatlely it wore off, and God never talked to me directly again.
Got interested in Zen for a while, read the books of Charlotte Joko Beck and Pema Chodron. Eventually I decided that Zen practice wasn't psychologically healthy for me (sitting motionless in a row, staring at a wall). It was too much like my childhood deprivation, so I quit Zen and started therapy.
Wrote a lot of crazy stuff about God in my journal, how we're all just little chips off of God, how my purpose was to be a vessel for bringing God's love into the world. It never seemed to translate into any real direction or action. After my brain chemistry got stabilised with medication I found I wasn't so interested in thinking about God anymore. Go figure.
My mother killed herself, though suicide was a mortal sin in her church. She had severe depression and chronic pain, and mostly prayed for healing instead of getting regular medical care. Her faith seemed to encourage depression, since about everything was forbidden except reading the Bible. It was a shock. I thought the fear of hell would keep her from doing it.
Since then tried a New Age church, couldn't stand the intensity of positive-ness everyone projected. Read about Wicca, it sounded nice but I couldn't really figure out what to do with it. Went to 12-steps, never really grasped the spirituality of it, but it was a nice group. Did yoga for a couple of years, it was sort of spiritual at times.
I honestly don't know how to find spirituality anymore. Lately the most spiritual moments are gardening, or sitting in the yard looking at the sky.
Posted by suji on July 13, 2002, at 2:23:03
In reply to Giving up on one, trying another, posted by wendy b. on May 27, 2002, at 20:21:24
Hi--just found this site/thread and don't have time to write everything I want to at the moment...however, Wendy, I did just want to let you know that there is a very strong Pagan (Wiccan, Earth Faith...) group in the Unitarian Universalist Church.... It's not all secular humanism anymore (not that that's bad, it's just great to have options under the same supportive roof!) In fact, some UU congregations have decided to fully accept their Pagan leanings and follow that path entirely--since Unitarian Universalism embraces everyone's sincere search for personal truth, all paths that do no harm are considered valid. This is overly simplistic but I'm sure you get the idea...My own UU congregation includes a mixture of people who follow different paths--the basis for being a UU is that you respect everyone's journey,enjoy the eclectic, intelligent group of people you get to meet, and also find many ways in which to put your beliefs into action--after all, without action what good are beliefs anyway?!
Glad I found this site...thanks.
Peace on the journey,
suji
Posted by faith_n on November 1, 2004, at 7:13:20
In reply to Operating Instructions is GREAT! (nt), posted by SuzyQ on May 31, 2002, at 1:28:50
a
This is the end of the thread.
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