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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 7:02:02
In reply to Re: I'll make a deal with you Dinah..., posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 0:09:10
Posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 10:24:18
In reply to Re: Come on guys! » Ritch, posted by Dinah on August 16, 2002, at 22:00:47
> Hmmm. Maybe that's where I got the impression from whatever I read of Hemingway in high school that he was just too clever. It was probably the lack of depth or character development or something?
>
> I'm going to go to the library tomorrow to borrow the book and read it (because darn it, I am NOT going to buy Hemingway). Perhaps it will jog my memory as to why I formed that opinion.
>
> It's a fine line here isn't it. If we pick too long a book, we reduce the number of people who will read it. If we pick too short a book, we limit the probable discussion time. What do you think would be the best way to maximize involvement?
>
> The discussion thread just looked so sad and lonely....
My book was borrowed from the library as well. I am more of a music freak than a book freak. Perhaps what bugs a lot of people about Hemingway is his *lack* of idealism-or his *idealism* is far removed from most other people's conception of how the world should be. There is a fatalistic attitude in his stuff that kind of says: "Here's the world-it can be quite cruel, and if you want to feel alive you are going to have to make things happen for yourself, sorry". I saw a humorous tee-shirt once that said: "Exercise, eat right, die anyway." Perhaps his own philosophy contributed to his depressions.Mitch
Posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 15:30:39
In reply to Re: Deal (cyberhandshake) (nm) » .tabitha., posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 7:02:02
I accidentally started reading Farewell to Arms first, it was deadly dull. Sun Also Rises was a great relief in comparison. Itching to post report now.
Better get reading, girl. (uh oh, is this considered "pressuring others"?) ;)
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 17:05:56
In reply to Re: Ha! Finished book! » Dinah, posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 15:30:39
I haven't finished the book yet by a long shot, but I remember why I thought Hemingway was way too clever.
He does sketches of characters and seems to think that the sketches are the characters. A few breezy lines and he's summed up just about everyone.
I don't know if I'm explaining it at all well, but it's what really irritates me about Hemingway. I can be amused at his stories, and he is an excellent raconteur, but he leaves me feeling....
Oh I don't know. Maybe if I finish the story it will come to me.
Posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 20:30:49
In reply to Re: I remember now..., posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 17:05:56
I think the thing missing is he never ever gets inside anyone's head. My favorite part of books is being able to get inside the characters' heads, so he's not an author I particularly enjoy. To me he's more of a slick stylist. That kind of writing always strikes me as adolescent.
Posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 21:01:09
In reply to Re: I remember now... » Dinah, posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 20:30:49
That's exactly what I was trying to say.
(I was also wondering if his lovers were left as unfulfilled as his readers. But I guess that is rude speculation.)
Posted by .tabitha. on August 17, 2002, at 22:19:32
In reply to Re: Exactly! » .tabitha., posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 21:01:09
Well, the main character in Sun is impotent after all
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 4:17:00
In reply to Re: I remember now..., posted by Dinah on August 17, 2002, at 17:05:56
On second thought, perhaps it wasn't rude speculation as much as it was an explanation of the feeling which I couldn't identify in my above post.
> I don't know if I'm explaining it at all well, but it's what really irritates me about Hemingway. I can be amused at his stories, and he is an excellent raconteur, but he leaves me feeling....
>
> Oh I don't know. Maybe if I finish the story it will come to me.It did come to me, in that persistent question about Hemingway's other skills. I felt led on during the whole book. Lots of warm-up, but no follow-through. His character sketches showed enough insight that I kept hoping for more, but was constantly disappointed. No doubt how not only Brett and Jake, but every darn character in the story felt. And it's true that Jake was impotent.
So I would almost believe that Hemingway was an absolutely wonderful writer to be able to cause me to feel the same frustration and disappointment that all his characters felt. Except that my recollection of my prior experience with Hemingway left the same feeling. That he promised more than he delivered, and ended up merely being clever, and as you said, a slick stylist. So unless all his books have the same theme, I don't think it likely that he intentionally caused me to feel that way.
Oddly enough, the only place in the book I didn't feel that way was in the part about the aging bullfighter who came out of retirement. While reading that part, I felt something for that fighter. And the description of the bullfighters' styles also had all the passion that the rest of the book lacked.
Posted by Ritch on August 18, 2002, at 10:16:10
In reply to Re: Exactly - Tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 4:17:00
> On second thought, perhaps it wasn't rude speculation as much as it was an explanation of the feeling which I couldn't identify in my above post.
>
> > I don't know if I'm explaining it at all well, but it's what really irritates me about Hemingway. I can be amused at his stories, and he is an excellent raconteur, but he leaves me feeling....
> >
> > Oh I don't know. Maybe if I finish the story it will come to me.
>
> It did come to me, in that persistent question about Hemingway's other skills. I felt led on during the whole book. Lots of warm-up, but no follow-through. His character sketches showed enough insight that I kept hoping for more, but was constantly disappointed. No doubt how not only Brett and Jake, but every darn character in the story felt. And it's true that Jake was impotent.
>
> So I would almost believe that Hemingway was an absolutely wonderful writer to be able to cause me to feel the same frustration and disappointment that all his characters felt. Except that my recollection of my prior experience with Hemingway left the same feeling. That he promised more than he delivered, and ended up merely being clever, and as you said, a slick stylist. So unless all his books have the same theme, I don't think it likely that he intentionally caused me to feel that way.
>
> Oddly enough, the only place in the book I didn't feel that way was in the part about the aging bullfighter who came out of retirement. While reading that part, I felt something for that fighter. And the description of the bullfighters' styles also had all the passion that the rest of the book lacked.
>Dinah and Tabitha,
Yes, the contrast between Jake's impotence and the bullfighters, and Brett's unfulfilled love for Jake is the hingepin of the book. Brett never loved any of the other men that she had, only Jake. Interesting that you mention the old bullfighter. The author portrays the "promotional" side of the bullfighting and the "traditional" side of it (wow, those two words have the same number of letters). The older the bullfighters get the more they are "used" and "promoted"---hmm. sounds like the work force--working in general as one gets older.. Great, now I am starting to see some patterns and the book is back at the library!
Mitch
Posted by OddipusRex on August 18, 2002, at 14:46:04
In reply to Re: Come on guys! » Dinah, posted by Ritch on August 17, 2002, at 10:24:18
That's exactly what bothered me about it-the lack of idealism. But after I read that comment something clicked and I went back and looked at it again. Nobody believed in much of anything-it was post WWI and most of them were veterans. Even Brett was a former nurse and had lost her first true love in the war.. It seemed like to me the lot of them were suffering from PTSD. At the bullfight Nick mentions having spent six months with the lights on at night because things seem different in the dark. The fireworks at the bullfight were compared to combat explosions. Was the bullfighting some way to recapture the intensity of combat or relive it or just a way of replacing the numbness with some kind of emotion? There was also the religous aspect. H says "San ferme was also a religous festival" and Nick goes to mass several times. He tells Brett that he is technically a Catholic. The idea of bloody sacrifice of the bull sort of reflects the bloody sacrifice at mass.What is this aficion this passion that he finds attractive? They all seem detached and adrift. In some ways it reminds me of the disillusionment and drifting and loss of common values after Vietnam.
It's a really uncomfortable book to read.
And what happens with Nick and Brett at the end? Nick seems to have been disillusioned with her also?>
>
> My book was borrowed from the library as well. I am more of a music freak than a book freak. Perhaps what bugs a lot of people about Hemingway is his *lack* of idealism-or his *idealism* is far removed from most other people's conception of how the world should be. There is a fatalistic attitude in his stuff that kind of says: "Here's the world-it can be quite cruel, and if you want to feel alive you are going to have to make things happen for yourself, sorry". I saw a humorous tee-shirt once that said: "Exercise, eat right, die anyway." Perhaps his own philosophy contributed to his depressions.
>
> Mitch
>
Posted by .tabitha. on August 18, 2002, at 16:35:16
In reply to Re: Come on guys!, posted by OddipusRex on August 18, 2002, at 14:46:04
Interesting that you thought Brett really loved Jake. I got the impression she was kidding herself about her great love for him, and only actually wanted him because he was unavailable. I suspected he didn't love her either. When Jake said "isn't it pretty to think so" at the end he was acknowledging that their great love was just a mutual delusion.
Posted by .tabitha. on August 18, 2002, at 17:10:56
In reply to Re: Exactly - Tabitha, posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 4:17:00
OK, now my new revised book report. When I first read it (probably high school age) I think I wasn't even adult enough to pick up on the impotency angle, or that their drinking was such an act of despair. I thought they were cool.
I didn't dislike it as much as I expected this time. I'm not sure I'd really call it sexist. The woman was not the only one portrayed a little hatefully. There really weren't any sympathetic characters. Even the young bullfighter, who might have been the hero, was shown to be narrow-minded and possessive toward Brett. Perhaps the old innkeeper was the moral center, but he wasn't really a character.
At the end I thought Jake was sort of wallowing in his victimhood, how he'd been used and hurt by women/Brett, though with his own full participation.
Anyway, I think I've had too much therapy to appreciate great literature. All I could see was jeez, these folks are serious alcoholics and totally unable to handle their feelings. Everybody drank a lot every day, and when something upsetting happened, they drank an extra lot. It was actually used as a form of communication. Brett started drinking more when she met Jake at first, illustrating her strong feelings for him. At the end Jake got super-drunk, and Brett asked him not too (really saying please don't be hurt by my affair with Pedro).
All their feelings were obvious yet not spoken of at all. It was considered a great breach of social etiquette to actually demonstrate one's feelings. For instance, the whole setup was just not workable. Here these folks were socializing together, and supposed to act like all the complicated feelings between Robert and Brett, and Brett and Jake, and Michael and Robert, did not exist. With too much alcohol, all the nasty undercurrents came out, which was considered "behaving badly". What an impossible code of behavior. The only way to adhere is if you were lucky enough to be a stoic drunk instead of a sloppy or angry one.
All I could think is yuck, how dysfunctional. How can I stick with characters thru a whole book who don't seem to grow one bit. Bleak is the word.
----------------
Random thoughts:Somewhere I think Jake was talking about friendships with women, and said that there was no basis for a friendship unless the man was in love with the woman. What a cynical view, than a man can have no appreciation for a woman unless it's sexual. I'll just hope that's not true, even though my personal experience supports that view.
The book was great for triggering alcoholic cravings. All those sensual descriptions of drinking every couple of pages.
The social setup reminded me of closed social groups, where eventually practically everyone has slept with everyone else, and you're all still stuck together at every social function. Yuck.
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 18:39:56
In reply to Re: Come on guys! » OddipusRex, posted by .tabitha. on August 18, 2002, at 16:35:16
I have to agree with your assessment about the genuineness of the "love" between Jake and Brett. But I do think he was attracted to her based on her sexuality. (There are two possibilities there, and I haven't decided whether I lean towards one over the other.) And I think he genuinely admired her based perhaps on what he saw of her during the war? But by the last line of the book, it was clear that he realized that wasn't enough.
> Interesting that you thought Brett really loved Jake. I got the impression she was kidding herself about her great love for him, and only actually wanted him because he was unavailable. I suspected he didn't love her either. When Jake said "isn't it pretty to think so" at the end he was acknowledging that their great love was just a mutual delusion.
Posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 18:46:38
In reply to Re: congrats for finishing book » Dinah, posted by .tabitha. on August 18, 2002, at 17:10:56
I agree with a lot of what you say.
The drinking part didn't really affect me as much as it did some of the rest of you. It just reminded me of my father's family.
But about friendship between men and women. I've had a lot of friends who were men, and actually in a lot of ways find it easier to relate to men. And a lot of my husband's friends are women. And there is rarely any sexual attraction involved at all. So my experience would be that genuine friendship between men and women isn't that unusual. (Of course, none of the men I've been friends with were anything at all like Jake or his friends. They remind me of some of my father's friends, who I could barely stand to be around and wouldn't have as friends for anything.)
Posted by mair on August 19, 2002, at 8:10:37
In reply to Re: congrats for finishing book » .tabitha., posted by Dinah on August 18, 2002, at 18:46:38
I never quite finished it - I was bored to tears and got waylaid by another book.
I, too, was bothered by all the drinking, but more so by the fact that no one had any earned income - maybe Jake, but work seemed to be a sideline for him. Nevermind the drinking - they all seem to spend hours moving from club to cafe to bar to club. They meet all the same people there doing what they're doing. While Hemingway never tells you what time it is, I have to believe no one is getting much sleep, unless of course they're all sleeping in since no one seems to have to get up to go to work.
Do you think it's possible that Hemingway made their lives so boring just to demonstrate what shallow lives they lived?
Mair
Posted by Ritch on August 19, 2002, at 11:17:59
In reply to Re: Come on guys!, posted by OddipusRex on August 18, 2002, at 14:46:04
Well, they did call those folks "The Lost Generation". I remember Jake saying something about going to Mass and that he "wished he was more religious". Perhaps the bullring is the new religion of our time? The "aficion"? They do talk a bit about the older versus the newer bullfighters and how they all are manipulated by promoters to put on the best show. Maybe people have lost their faith in God, and now are only psychically invested in sports and politics instead?
> That's exactly what bothered me about it-the lack of idealism. But after I read that comment something clicked and I went back and looked at it again. Nobody believed in much of anything-it was post WWI and most of them were veterans. Even Brett was a former nurse and had lost her first true love in the war.. It seemed like to me the lot of them were suffering from PTSD. At the bullfight Nick mentions having spent six months with the lights on at night because things seem different in the dark. The fireworks at the bullfight were compared to combat explosions. Was the bullfighting some way to recapture the intensity of combat or relive it or just a way of replacing the numbness with some kind of emotion? There was also the religous aspect. H says "San ferme was also a religous festival" and Nick goes to mass several times. He tells Brett that he is technically a Catholic. The idea of bloody sacrifice of the bull sort of reflects the bloody sacrifice at mass.What is this aficion this passion that he finds attractive? They all seem detached and adrift. In some ways it reminds me of the disillusionment and drifting and loss of common values after Vietnam.
> It's a really uncomfortable book to read.
> And what happens with Nick and Brett at the end? Nick seems to have been disillusioned with her also?
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > My book was borrowed from the library as well. I am more of a music freak than a book freak. Perhaps what bugs a lot of people about Hemingway is his *lack* of idealism-or his *idealism* is far removed from most other people's conception of how the world should be. There is a fatalistic attitude in his stuff that kind of says: "Here's the world-it can be quite cruel, and if you want to feel alive you are going to have to make things happen for yourself, sorry". I saw a humorous tee-shirt once that said: "Exercise, eat right, die anyway." Perhaps his own philosophy contributed to his depressions.
> >
> > Mitch
> >
>
>
Posted by Ritch on August 19, 2002, at 11:30:12
In reply to What about work?, posted by mair on August 19, 2002, at 8:10:37
> Do you think it's possible that Hemingway made their lives so boring just to demonstrate what shallow lives they lived?
>
> MairI distinctly got the impression when I was reading the first half of the book that Hemingway was at times purposefully writing in a tedious boring way to set a mood.
Posted by Dinah on August 19, 2002, at 12:30:39
In reply to What about work?, posted by mair on August 19, 2002, at 8:10:37
> Do you think it's possible that Hemingway made their lives so boring just to demonstrate what shallow lives they lived?
>
> MairHi Mair. :)
Part of my problem with the book was that I wasn't altogether sure that Hemingway thought their lives were shallow. I kept wondering throughout the book whether the feelings it caused me to feel were the ones Hemingway intended or not.
Last night while monitoring a printout I tried to do some internet research on Hemingway in order to try to figure out what he intended with the book. I ran across this site, among others, and found it rather enlightening.
Posted by OddipusRex on August 19, 2002, at 13:41:47
In reply to What about work?, posted by mair on August 19, 2002, at 8:10:37
>
> Do you think it's possible that Hemingway made their lives so boring just to demonstrate what shallow lives they lived?
>
I think so. And he did a really good job of it in my case. There was a place in the book where Bill was buying shoeshines over and over for one of the other guys. Both of them were drunk and found it very amusing but when Nick comes down he says he was so far behind them (in drinking) that he felt a little uncomfortable about all the shoe shining. That's how I felt about the whole book -like it probably would have been more amusing if I were drunk too.
As for work, I think most of them were writers, at least Nick Bill and Cohen.
Posted by .tabitha. on August 21, 2002, at 0:49:09
In reply to Re: What about work?, posted by OddipusRex on August 19, 2002, at 13:41:47
That was kind of an interesting bit, how the steers brought the bulls into a herd, where they ceased to be dangerous and aggressive. Awfully nice of the steers, even if they were just playing out their steer instincts.
I must ask, what's the difference between a bull and a steer? Is a steer a castrated bull?
Posted by mair on August 21, 2002, at 8:23:42
In reply to Re: About the steers..., posted by .tabitha. on August 21, 2002, at 0:49:09
Would anyone care to comment on why Hemingway created a character like Robert Cohn? Was is to show how unobtainable Brett was? Was it a vehicle to demonstrate the anti-semitism of the other characters? Do you think Hemingway is placing a value judgment about anti-semitism, or is he just reflecting the prevailing views of his time? Also, I didn't understand the relationship with Mike and Brett. Everyone accepts that they'll ultimately get married, or at least Jake keeps telling people this, but Mike doesn't seem to be that bothered by Brett's relationship with Cohn or with Romero.
Mair (who finally finished the book)
Posted by .tabitha. on August 21, 2002, at 15:22:35
In reply to Role of Cohn??, posted by mair on August 21, 2002, at 8:23:42
I thought Cohn was just there to be that pitiful person who doesn't understand the social rules. He wore his feelings on his sleeve, which was the biggest no-no. He was the most sincere character, so all the cynical world-weary ones hated him.
As for Mike and Brett, at the end Brett went back to him, saying something like they were the same sort. They didn't really have a passionate love for each other, but they were at the same level. Both self-destructive and driven in their own ways. Being with Mike, Brett would not feel ashamed of herself, since he was no better than her.
Posted by Dinah on August 21, 2002, at 20:17:41
In reply to Re: Role of Cohn??, posted by .tabitha. on August 21, 2002, at 15:22:35
I'm not so sure about Cohn being all that sincere. He used his emotions to manipulate others. And managed to see himself as the wounded victim all the time. And he seemed really passive aggressive. He was playing the same games that everyone else were playing. Do you remember when the woman he left talked about him crying when he more or less dumped her. I mean he was dumping her, but he was the one crying. He brought out the worst in everyone else and then stood back in surprise and hurt at their reactions.
Posted by Ritch on August 22, 2002, at 1:45:05
In reply to Re: About the steers..., posted by .tabitha. on August 21, 2002, at 0:49:09
> That was kind of an interesting bit, how the steers brought the bulls into a herd, where they ceased to be dangerous and aggressive. Awfully nice of the steers, even if they were just playing out their steer instincts.
>
> I must ask, what's the difference between a bull and a steer? Is a steer a castrated bull?Yes, that is correct. Also, remember that it was explained in the book that the "steers" were trying to make friends.
Posted by Ritch on August 22, 2002, at 2:07:33
In reply to Role of Cohn??, posted by mair on August 21, 2002, at 8:23:42
> Would anyone care to comment on why Hemingway created a character like Robert Cohn? Was is to show how unobtainable Brett was? Was it a vehicle to demonstrate the anti-semitism of the other characters? Do you think Hemingway is placing a value judgment about anti-semitism, or is he just reflecting the prevailing views of his time? Also, I didn't understand the relationship with Mike and Brett. Everyone accepts that they'll ultimately get married, or at least Jake keeps telling people this, but Mike doesn't seem to be that bothered by Brett's relationship with Cohn or with Romero.
>
> Mair (who finally finished the book)Cohn is impulsive, who has difficulty controlling what he *feels*.
Mike is a cynic that can't control what he *says*.
Jake can't control his fantasies at night that are unfulfillable and that *torment* him.
Brett is in love with Jake only and is tormented, but is it because he is unattainable?The young bullfighter is a "hero" in a sense, in that he is not being tormented and is not suffering from his own human condition. He is immersed in his "ART". But, the older he gets, the more he is likely to be used/promoted/manipulated by others for other ends, and his "aficion" will dwindle and eventually die, an individual human being, that has a great talent, an art, which will slowly be corrupted by time and aging by the market place.
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