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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by kiddo on May 24, 2002, at 14:08:55
In reply to Wow what a great lookin' corner you have here... » kiddo, posted by alii on May 24, 2002, at 13:58:40
So glad to see I'm not alone in this one :-)
Bless you!
KiddoHow are are you in reading?
Posted by alii on May 24, 2002, at 14:23:05
In reply to Re: Kiddo's Korner has Kompany :-) » alii, posted by kiddo on May 24, 2002, at 14:08:55
> So glad to see I'm not alone in this one :-)
> Bless you!
> Kiddo
> How are are you in reading?Kiddo,
Wreeding? Nut sew gud rite now. Emotions are making moments of clarity and ability to actually retain what I am looking at rare.
So....I am banking on having read this book before many years ago to help get me to speed by the eighth.....if not so what?.....I am only attempting reading for club and it is in the attempt for me.
still feeling overall decline while spinning away,
alii
Posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 16:01:54
In reply to Company loves misery....no wait.... » kiddo, posted by alii on May 24, 2002, at 14:23:05
I think neither Mitch nor I have finished it - we've just jumped the gun and started talking about what we did read. I'm about half way through (I did read it once before). I'm sticking with the 8th.
Mair
Posted by Ritch on May 24, 2002, at 23:54:43
In reply to Don't sweat it kiddo, posted by mair on May 24, 2002, at 16:01:54
> I think neither Mitch nor I have finished it - we've just jumped the gun and started talking about what we did read. I'm about half way through (I did read it once before). I'm sticking with the 8th.
>
> Mair
Yeah, that is about right. I am at chapter #8 which is approximately half-way through. I have to go to work Tuesday. I am not sure I can stay away from it while I have the time...Mitch
Posted by NikkiT2 on May 25, 2002, at 7:09:03
In reply to Owen Meany-Unfinished, posted by kiddo on May 24, 2002, at 12:27:33
I'vre still got a little way to go.. nearly finished though, but this has taken alot of forced reading on my part... I do make sure i read every day anyway as reading is my escape from my head!!!
Oh, and the above thread does touch on the plot, but not hugely and mainly just ideas from early parts of the book.. I've been careful not to give anything away.
nikki
Posted by mair on June 8, 2002, at 20:19:53
In reply to Re: Owen Meany-Unfinished » kiddo, posted by NikkiT2 on May 25, 2002, at 7:09:03
Does anyone else who finished care to comment on why it was important to make Johnny a lifetime virgin?
I couldn't really figure this out.
Mair
Posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 6:36:10
In reply to I finally finished!!, posted by mair on June 8, 2002, at 20:19:53
> Does anyone else who finished care to comment on why it was important to make Johnny a lifetime virgin?
>
> I couldn't really figure this out.
>
> MairThe one clue that comes to my mind that might explain that is his comment about being "just another Joseph". He was Joseph in the xmas play and Joseph in the Bible story was a virgin as well-if he was virginal when he married Mary and he wasn't unfaithful. There may be some stuff in the Bible that would clarify that-but I am hardly a Bible scholar!
Mitch
Posted by susan C on June 9, 2002, at 14:08:15
In reply to I finally finished!!, posted by mair on June 8, 2002, at 20:19:53
Yes, that is an interesting observation, mair, I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention it...one thing I thought is, there arent very often, characters, esp. males, that remain virgins. I think as Mitch has suggested, this book may have many more levels for an accomplished christian/protestant/catholic. Of which I have very little clue. I can appreciate some of the references to the Congregationa l ists, as I was 'raised' that way, if cong.s really do do that. That line of church was chosen, cause the strict southern ba btist dad and the strict norw. lu theren mom didnt want either, but felt something, something was important....oh well. I continued it with my kids, so they would at least know what a religion, partic. christi an was about. It is a big religion in U s A, you know.
Posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 14:37:51
In reply to now i need to go check it out again, to remember , posted by susan C on June 9, 2002, at 14:08:15
> Yes, that is an interesting observation, mair, I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention it...one thing I thought is, there arent very often, characters, esp. males, that remain virgins. I think as Mitch has suggested, this book may have many more levels for an accomplished christian/protestant/catholic. Of which I have very little clue. I can appreciate some of the references to the Congregationa l ists, as I was 'raised' that way, if cong.s really do do that. That line of church was chosen, cause the strict southern ba btist dad and the strict norw. lu theren mom didnt want either, but felt something, something was important....oh well. I continued it with my kids, so they would at least know what a religion, partic. christi an was about. It is a big religion in U s A, you know.
Susan/Mair,I thought of a couple of movies while I was reading this book: "Agnes of God" and "K-Pax". I haven't seen K-Pax yet, but I know what it is about. The idea -Was Owen Meaney actually the product of a divine conception and birth by a virgin mother? One freaky extension of that idea would be- what if it is true and that it has happened quite a number of times? In that case the 2nd coming of Christ would really be multiple incarnations or recurrences. Oops, there is a screenplay idea. :)
Mitch
Posted by susan C on June 9, 2002, at 18:09:47
In reply to Re: now i need to go check it out again, to remember , posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 14:37:51
Posted by mair on June 9, 2002, at 21:51:31
In reply to Re: now i need to go check it out again, to remember , posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 14:37:51
Yeah but Owen wasn't the virgin - Johnny was. It's an interesting observation, Mitch, about him being the Joseph figure, but he's really not a father figure in any other respect. He's critical as the person who tells Owen's story - as the witness to the miracles; but I still don't see the significance of making him a virgin.
Mair
Posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 23:33:39
In reply to Re: now i need to go check it out again, to remember , posted by mair on June 9, 2002, at 21:51:31
> Yeah but Owen wasn't the virgin - Johnny was. It's an interesting observation, Mitch, about him being the Joseph figure, but he's really not a father figure in any other respect. He's critical as the person who tells Owen's story - as the witness to the miracles; but I still don't see the significance of making him a virgin.
>
> Mair
Perhaps when he mentioned just "being another Joseph" he was talking about having a *passive role*, simply an observer (a witness-an apostle) not an *actor*, not a *hero*. Owen is the doer, the hero, the one who doesn't question or doubt anything, just does it. The main theme in the entire book is the two different types of faith. The kind derived from reason (through doubt) like Johnny and his father (Pastor Merrill) and the kind that is literal or "matter-of-fact" like Owen-"EASTER MEANS WHAT IT SAYS". What I found interesting is the illustration by the author that highly rational and doubting people can still be quite superstitious. Pastor Merrill "thinks" about Tabitha dropping dead immediately prior to her death-so therefore he feels that he was responsible (that God granted his "wish"). Pastor Merrill was also "fooled" by the dress-maker's dummy and the baseball through the stained glass window. Owen Meaney, however was told by his parents that he was the product of a virgin birth, but his parents *believed* that he was-so they weren't *intending* to *fool* Owen. There is where the critical difference lies.Mitch
Posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 23:39:51
In reply to are you saying K-pax was like owen? (nm) » Ritch, posted by susan C on June 9, 2002, at 18:09:47
I am going to rent that one soon! Yes, I would say that (based only on what I have heard K-Pax is about). K-Pax is a messenger of sorts. Owen was *there* to *save* other people. I suppose I could have included "Cool Hand Luke" in the movie list, too. :) The Owen Meaney book seems to look at human dramas in the light of some type of *replaying* of the "Pageant".
Mitch
Posted by susan C on June 10, 2002, at 11:39:59
In reply to Re: are you saying K-pax was like owen? » susan C, posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 23:39:51
this is all very interesting. I saw some of this, but like i mentioned earlier, I am not much of a symbolism see-er. I see the raw action, the thorough investigation of the dormatory during christmas break and the coinicidence of the twins parents arriving in the same room, the drama of the headmaster driving the bug down the center stairs, the pieces building of his dream through out the book, to culminate at the end (when you knew it would cause there were only so many pages left)with the penguins emerging from the plane with the children at the dusty, hot airport.
I need to get the book again. This is a good discussion and I want to understand what you all are saying.
I will get the movies too.
mouse with a mission
Posted by Ritch on June 10, 2002, at 13:00:45
In reply to Now I need to read and watch again » Ritch, posted by susan C on June 10, 2002, at 11:39:59
> this is all very interesting. I saw some of this, but like i mentioned earlier, I am not much of a symbolism see-er. I see the raw action, the thorough investigation of the dormatory during christmas break and the coinicidence of the twins parents arriving in the same room, the drama of the headmaster driving the bug down the center stairs, the pieces building of his dream through out the book, to culminate at the end (when you knew it would cause there were only so many pages left)with the penguins emerging from the plane with the children at the dusty, hot airport.
>
> I need to get the book again. This is a good discussion and I want to understand what you all are saying.
>
> I will get the movies too.
>
> mouse with a mission
Well, you will probably laugh at this-but I was thinking of two other movies while I was reading this- "Forest Gump" and "Animal House". I could see the headmaster looking just like the dean of that school in "Animal House". Forest Gump reminds me just a little of Owen. "EASTER IS AS EASTER SAYS" sounds a lot in my mind like "STUPID IS AS STUPID DOES". :)Mitch
Posted by mair on June 11, 2002, at 6:44:27
In reply to Re: now i need to go check it out again, to remember » mair, posted by Ritch on June 9, 2002, at 23:33:39
I think it's kind of neat the way Owen doesn't know what his role is - just that he has one. A good part of the book is the development of his understanding of the forces happening to him and his attempt to control them. He cuts off Johnny's finger when Johnny starts cropping up in the dream. He keeps angling for a transfer to a combat unit because he can't figure out how he saves Asian children in Arizona. The author does a good job of demonstrating that this is a gradual process with Owen, although maybe fueled by his parents admission to him that he was a virgin birth. - They really get trashed for this, as well they might, but how would things have been different if they had never told him that?
Posted by Ritch on June 11, 2002, at 10:46:36
In reply to What I found really interesting..., posted by mair on June 11, 2002, at 6:44:27
> I think it's kind of neat the way Owen doesn't know what his role is - just that he has one. A good part of the book is the development of his understanding of the forces happening to him and his attempt to control them. He cuts off Johnny's finger when Johnny starts cropping up in the dream. He keeps angling for a transfer to a combat unit because he can't figure out how he saves Asian children in Arizona. The author does a good job of demonstrating that this is a gradual process with Owen, although maybe fueled by his parents admission to him that he was a virgin birth. - They really get trashed for this, as well they might, but how would things have been different if they had never told him that?
Yes, that is a good question. I think the author might say that his life wouldn't have been any better off. If he had lived longer would it have had any more meaning to it? Your comment made me look back into the book just before the funeral when Johnny finds out who his father was (Pastor Merrill). Merrill says: "Owen Meany didn't exactly believe he was Jesus-but he said to me that if I could believe in one virgin birth, why not in another one?. Owen believed that there was a purpose to everything that happened to him-that God meant for the story of his life to have some meaning. God had *picked* Owen."Also, just before the funeral, when Johnny is going through Owen's things he finds some Thomas Aquinas writings. Owen had underlined "fervently" a passage in "Demonstration of God's Existence from Motion". That's the part where it says: "..Since everything that is moved functions as a sort of instrument of the first mover, if there was no first mover, then whatever things are in motion would be simply instruments." Owen mentions that he is an *instrument* of God early in the novel. And it seems he buys the "prime mover" argument to prove God's existence. So, he believes that ultimately God has predestined his life. So, the "story of his life" has meaning because God set everything in motion to allow his life to happen.
Ok, I am burrowing too much. I wonder how free will is represented.. by Pastor Merrill?
Mitch
Posted by mair on June 12, 2002, at 21:56:39
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » mair, posted by Ritch on June 11, 2002, at 10:46:36
Mitch
I agree with you about Owen, but it is a belief that he grows into over a period of time - hence all the meetings with Pastor Merrill.
I'm not sure what Pastor Merrill's role is other than as the object of scorn by Johnny. I think Johnny is so convinced that Owen is an agent of God, that he's rather contemptuous of anyone who doesn't share that. Not so much his stepfather Dan - but more so Pastor Merrill because Merrill was the subject of one of those miracles - when he spoke Owen's voice.
When you think about it, Johnny really is a very intolerant person, and angry I think. He's angry towards the government and contemptuous of other American's in Canada. He doesn't tolerate change well as evidenced by his dislike of the newer Canon in his church. Why do you think he's all of that and yet totally unassimilated into Canadian life - he becomes a man without a country?
Mair
Posted by Ritch on June 12, 2002, at 23:28:41
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » Ritch, posted by mair on June 12, 2002, at 21:56:39
> Mitch
>
> I agree with you about Owen, but it is a belief that he grows into over a period of time - hence all the meetings with Pastor Merrill.
>
> I'm not sure what Pastor Merrill's role is other than as the object of scorn by Johnny. I think Johnny is so convinced that Owen is an agent of God, that he's rather contemptuous of anyone who doesn't share that. Not so much his stepfather Dan - but more so Pastor Merrill because Merrill was the subject of one of those miracles - when he spoke Owen's voice.
>
> When you think about it, Johnny really is a very intolerant person, and angry I think. He's angry towards the government and contemptuous of other American's in Canada. He doesn't tolerate change well as evidenced by his dislike of the newer Canon in his church. Why do you think he's all of that and yet totally unassimilated into Canadian life - he becomes a man without a country?
>
> MairAha!, I had forgotten about the meetings with Pastor Merrill. So you think that Owen would have been reading the "doubting" Thomas Aquinas if it weren't for Merrill? My take on that notion is that Merrill was trying to "convert" Owen's simple faith to an intellectual study, and he got reading assignments. ..and Owen wound up *finding* intellectual support for his own "primitive" beliefs. I am not so sure that Johnny is convinced that Owen is an agent of God. Remember, after Owen dies, when Johnny is going through his stuff and hears what Mr. Meany says? He wanted to *kill* him and stuff Mrs. Meany into the fireplace (similar to his father wishing his mother were dead just before the foul ball-and Mrs. Meany dies from getting caught on fire)! I think that Johnny has always been a "doubter" like his father Pastor Merrill. When he found out the "reason" why Owen had his beliefs he was angry at Mr. Meany for filling Owen with all of that irrationality. If he really believed all along that Owen was truly an instrument of God, he shouldn't have been shocked or upset at that revelation.
The politics in the book are very important (but not my favorite part-because I find politics ugly aesthetically). Some quotes that I found a little interesting were: "THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN GET AMERICANS TO *NOTICE* ANYTHING IS TO TAX THEM OR DRAFT THEM OR KILL THEM."...."IF YOU ABOLISH THE DRAFT, MOST AMERICANS WILL SIMPLY STOP CARING ABOUT WHAT WE'RE DOING IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD." I think that is fairly accurate. If droves of the upper-middle class were being drafted right now-I think our current policies would be scrutinized a lot more!
Mitch
Posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 7:17:08
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » mair, posted by Ritch on June 12, 2002, at 23:28:41
Mitch
That's a good take on Pastor Merrill - I bet he was trying to convert Owen to a more intellectual faith.
The other piece of it is something I struggle with. My theory is that while Owen's parents' revelation to him is what informed Owen's earliest beliefs, over a long period of time, fueled by other events, Owen comes to believe that he is the instrument of god. His is a more mature belief by the end, not a child's belief. And let's face it, Owen is certainly bright enough to discount what his parents say, particularly his very nutty mother.
And yes, Johnny and Dan are furious with his parents BUT Johnny tries to convince Dan that Owen was predestined or part of God's plan and he's very disgusted with Pastor Merrill for not seeing this also. Somewhere in the book he says that he believes in God because of Owen Meany. This doesn't happen until he sees the way in which the whole dream plays out.
This is why I asked in an earlier post what difference it might have made if Owen had not been told of the supposed virgin birth by his parents.
Mair
Posted by Ritch on June 13, 2002, at 13:56:43
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting..., posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 7:17:08
> Mitch
>
> That's a good take on Pastor Merrill - I bet he was trying to convert Owen to a more intellectual faith.
>
> The other piece of it is something I struggle with. My theory is that while Owen's parents' revelation to him is what informed Owen's earliest beliefs, over a long period of time, fueled by other events, Owen comes to believe that he is the instrument of god. His is a more mature belief by the end, not a child's belief. And let's face it, Owen is certainly bright enough to discount what his parents say, particularly his very nutty mother.
>
> And yes, Johnny and Dan are furious with his parents BUT Johnny tries to convince Dan that Owen was predestined or part of God's plan and he's very disgusted with Pastor Merrill for not seeing this also. Somewhere in the book he says that he believes in God because of Owen Meany. This doesn't happen until he sees the way in which the whole dream plays out.
>
> This is why I asked in an earlier post what difference it might have made if Owen had not been told of the supposed virgin birth by his parents.
>
> Mair
Yes, that is a very important point. So, I did some research on it and Owen was eleven in xmas of '53 and he had already been told by his parents. I think that Johnny mentions later on that he was told when he was eleven. Well, Johnny's mother gets married in July of '52. Also, Owen has the first *precognitive* dream about the angel *before* Tabitha gets married. So, it would seem that he was having dreams, visions, whatever, before he was told by his parents.Mitch
Posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 16:59:52
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » mair, posted by Ritch on June 13, 2002, at 13:56:43
Mitch
Where is that first precognition dream discussed? I thought he didn't get those until he takes the armless dress dummy home after Tabitha dies - or was it when he was over at their house and the dummy was in the same room where he was sleeping?
I really appreciate your willingness to track some of this down. I just don't have the time to do much of anything right now, but talking with you about this book has been a wonderful distraction. I'm not a person who spots symbolism very well, so your take is great for me.
Mair
Posted by susan C on June 13, 2002, at 19:07:12
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » Ritch, posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 16:59:52
this is facinating, i still dont have the book, so i cant quote chapter and verse...but the two owen quotes, you posted, mair, jumped out at me too. I was going through some family history files and found the telegram our family sent when my son was 8 months old protesting registration for the draft...vietnam and cambodia had been just too close...and I agree, the usa activities would be very different, if middle and UPPER class were required to be in the military right now.
One part of all this, that seemed to be a little bit subtile for me, was the meetings with Merril. They were almost "off stage" if you will. Johnny was certainly kept in the dark. I wondered why? when reading that part. At first I thought it was because Owen was having the dreams and it was counselling, then I thought, maybe Owen had discovered the pastor was Johnny's father. After all, Owen never really spent a lot of time (at least protrayed in the book) talking with or "to" any one, except perhaps Johnny and even then, he was so often "talking AT" him. Was it during these conversations that he discovered the ball in the drawer? Am I remembering this right? I really need to get the book again. I apologize for being vague. I really have no excuse for not having the book.
mouse looking for her library card
Posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 20:51:29
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting..., posted by susan C on June 13, 2002, at 19:07:12
Susan
owen discovers the ball after he has stolen the catholic church statute and moved it to Gravesend. He's been expelled and he disappears for awhile and Dan and Johnny are looking for him and they find him in Merrill's office waiting for him Owen is fidgeting - touching drawers and stuff and talking to Dan and johnny when Merrill walks in. At that stage he had already been meeting with Merrill pretty regularly.
Mair
Posted by Ritch on June 13, 2002, at 23:06:35
In reply to Re: What I found really interesting... » Ritch, posted by mair on June 13, 2002, at 16:59:52
> Mitch
>
> Where is that first precognition dream discussed? I thought he didn't get those until he takes the armless dress dummy home after Tabitha dies - or was it when he was over at their house and the dummy was in the same room where he was sleeping?
>
> I really appreciate your willingness to track some of this down. I just don't have the time to do much of anything right now, but talking with you about this book has been a wonderful distraction. I'm not a person who spots symbolism very well, so your take is great for me.
>
> Mair
Mair,Owen saw the "angel" hovering over Johnny's Mom (Tabitha) at the house on "80 Front Street" (Johnny's grandmother's), while she was still alive and sleeping. Owen says after seeing the angel the first time:
"THAT'S THE DUMMY, YOU IDIOT!..THE ANGEL WAS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE BED....I'M GOING TO STAY HERE..IN CASE IT COMES BACK...I DON'T KNOW WHAT KIND OF ANGEL IT WAS"."It made him furious when I suggested that *anything* was an "accident"-especially anything that had happened to him; on the subject of predestination, Owen Meany would accuse Calvin of bad faith. There were *no* accidents; there was a reason for that baseball-just as there was a reason for Owen being small, and a *reason* for his voice. In Owen's opinion, he had INTERRUPTED AN ANGEL, he had DISTURBED AN ANGEL AT WORK, he had UPSET THE SCHEME OF THINGS."
"I realize now that he never thought he saw a guardian angel; he was quite convinced, especialy after THAT FATED BASEBALL, that he had interrupted the Angel of Death. Although he did not(at the time) delineate the plot of this Divine Narrative to me, I know that's what he believed: he, Owen Meany, had interrupted the Angel of Death at her holy work; she had reassigned the task--she gave it to *him*. How could these fantasies become so monstrous, and so convincing to him?"Interesting.. that means that Owen *saved* Tabitha from an earlier death (by interrupting the Angel of Death) that she would have suffered otherwise. So, that means that Pastor Merrill's thinking that he had caused Tabitha's death by his thinking "I wish she would drop dead", was erroneous. He was just picking up the precognition of her death-not the *prime mover* of her death (cause of her death). Perhaps an illustration the author wants to show us is that the "doubter" only believes (has faith) whenever the doubter *appears* to have "proof" of omnipotent powers (is "playing God").
Mitch
This is the end of the thread.
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