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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by former poster on February 4, 2011, at 0:25:17
It's not a cure but I can't get by without eating my dried Goji berries every morning. Seems to give me a boost of energy and I sleep better.
Posted by sigismund on February 4, 2011, at 13:29:17
In reply to Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by former poster on February 4, 2011, at 0:25:17
How many do you eat?
I wondered if they gave me insomnia, but that is probably just me.
Posted by Hombre on February 4, 2011, at 20:57:03
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by sigismund on February 4, 2011, at 13:29:17
Goji berries are good for supplementing the Yin of the liver and kidneys. It's like adding a little oil to your lamp, so your metabolic flame doesn't burn you out. They are also indicated for the eyes, as they contain large amounts of lutein (I think that's it), a pigment important for the functioning of the eyes. According to TCM, the liver is connected to the eyes. Dry, red eyes may indicate a deficiency of liver Yin. Liver fire may lead to frustration, anger, yelling, agiation, etc.
A small handfull each day is OK. You can also add them to soups, rice, trail mix, whatever you like. More is not necessarily better.
Posted by former poster on February 5, 2011, at 11:03:31
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by sigismund on February 4, 2011, at 13:29:17
I eat a dried clump of about 1 ounce or less in the morning every day. If I take it in the afternoon or evening I will have a problem sleeping.
Posted by sigismund on February 5, 2011, at 13:13:53
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » sigismund, posted by former poster on February 5, 2011, at 11:03:31
I don't know if I have the enzyme right, but does it increase SOD?
Posted by former poster on February 5, 2011, at 23:37:02
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by Hombre on February 4, 2011, at 20:57:03
>>Liver fire may lead to frustration, anger, yelling, agiation, etc.<<
I think I have liver fire. Can you tell me more about this?
Posted by sigismund on February 6, 2011, at 1:43:51
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » Hombre, posted by former poster on February 5, 2011, at 23:37:02
>I think I have liver fire
Is that where the liver whatever fails to quench the heart thingo?
I think I have that, but the herbs for it were not liver herbs as I understand them (Bupleurum, Schizandra), but rather Zizypus and Polygala, but then they called it a Shen disturbance.
My main symptom was difficulty with sleep maintenance.
Posted by Hombre on February 6, 2011, at 3:56:59
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » Hombre, posted by former poster on February 5, 2011, at 23:37:02
> >>Liver fire may lead to frustration, anger, yelling, agiation, etc.<<
>
> I think I have liver fire. Can you tell me more about this?Liver fire describes a certain pattern of disharmony or imbalance in the whole body, as the organs in TCM represent functional groupings rather than strict anatomical structures and functions. In short, for those who can't grok the TCM lingo, don't worry about it. They are just descriptors.
OK, with that out of the way, here are some interesting quotes from people much better educated than I:
http://www.itmonline.org/5organs/liver.htm
"LIVER YIN DEFICIENCY (gan yin xu): primary symptoms are dizziness; blurry vision; dry eyes; dull intercostal pain; dry mouth and throat; heat sensations in palms and soles. Secondary symptoms include numbness in extremities; limited tendon flexibility; lusterless nails; impatient disposition and temper outbreaks; flushed cheeks; dark urination; constipation; low grade fever; restlessness and insomnia; tidal heat sensations; night sweats. The tongue typically presents with redness and little or no coating; the pulse tends to be wiry and fine, or wiry, fine, and rapid."
"LIVER FIRE BLAZING (gan huo shang yan): primary symptoms are pain and distention in the head; dizziness; ringing in the ears or sudden deafness; red face; red, swollen, or painful eyes; dry and bitter sensation in the mouth; marked impatience and tendency to throw fits of anger. Secondary symptoms include insomnia; vivid dreaming; throbbing or burning pain along sides of chest; dark urination; constipation. The tongue typically presents with a red body and a yellow coating; the pulse tends to be wiry and rapid."
"REBELLIOUS UPFLARING OF LIVER YANG (gan yang shang kang): primary symptoms are dizziness; distention and pain in the head; ringing in the ears; redness and heat sensation in the face and upper part of the body. Secondary symptoms include insomnia; vivid dreaming; impatience; angry disposition; heavy head and "light feet" (easily stumbles); weak and sore lower back and knees; dry mouth and throat. The tongue is typically red; the pulse tends to be wiry and forceful, or wiry, fine, and rapid."
Any sort of Yin (moisture, coolness) deficiency will be similar to a heat/fire pattern, with symptoms of dryness, heat, redness, dark urine, constipation, insomnia, agitation, vivid dreaming. Most people are somewhat Yin deficient due to too much work/stress and not enough rest. Also, too much time staring at a monitor will tire out your eyes. Staying up too late is supposedly bad for the liver, as the early part of a "normal" sleep schedule is for the liver to detoxify the blood and break down various hormones, including glucocorticoids a.k.a. stress hormones. As a long time insomniac, I can vouch for the value of getting to bed before 11pm. I need meds to do it for now, but it's worth it to get restful sleep. I definitely feel worse if I stay up too late, even if I get 8 hours.
Also, liver stagnation can lead to liver yin deficiency or liver fire. Liver stagnation is sort of a "stuck" feeling usually caused my anger or frustration. The liver represents your ability to spread, grow, flow. If someone or something blocks this, you feel angry or frustrated. Too much of this will lead to liver stagnation, and over time stagnation can lead to heat, much as in physics and chemistry, pressure and heat are related. It's a bit hokey, and yet easy to grasp this analogy.
So according to TCM, it's really important to deal with your anger and frustration in a proactive way. Just suppressing your emotions will eventually do harm. If possible, try to channel or transform that initial angry energy into action or communication. If you develop personal strategies for how to do this, you can use anger, which is a vital and natural emotion, to fuel positive change. That's common sense perhaps, but to link emotion to disease is one of the things about TCM that makes it fascinating to someone like me who has suffered emotional/mental illness for many years.
Some background on the liver in TCM and its connection to emotions and mental function:
"Emotional aspect: the ancient Chinese observed that human emotions are largely governed by the heart network. However, they also concluded that mental well-being or various shades of depression have an association with the coursing and draining function of the liver. Only if the liver carries this task out properly can the body's qi and blood flow unobstructed, and thus facilitate a feeling of ease, harmony, and peace. If for some reason the liver fails to maintain this state, depression (of liver qi) or pathological rising (of liver yang) may result."
"The liver is in charge of planning and strategy, the gallbladder is in charge of decision making.
Just as trees (wood) tend to unrelentingly pursue their upward quest for the light, the liver represents the innate will of the body/mind to spread outward. Just like qi and blood have to spread within the body to ensure physical survival, human shen needs to spread freely through the social environment to guarantee an uninhibited passage through life. Individuals with strong liver qi and blood are usually excellent strategic planners and decision makers: they know how to spread themselves into the world. Due to these qualities, they often make outstanding business managers. If, however, this tough and determined spreading nature of the liver is not in a state of harmonious balance with the softer side of liver wood-ease, smoothness, flexibility-the wood-endangering state of rigidity arises."
"he Liver Loses Its Ability to Course and Drain: if qi gets stuck, the inhibited coursing action of liver qi immediately manifests in the form of mental and emotional symptoms; depression, sensation of emotional pain, or crying are typical examples. If liver qi flares up and upsets the harmonious interplay between body and mind, outbursts of anger, or pain and distention in the sides of the chest may result.
This condition has also immediate consequences to the functioning of the spleen/stomach, specifically the actions of absorbing, transforming, and transporting grain qi (postnatal essence). Typical signs of a liver qi disorder implicating the neighboring spleen/stomach system are belching, regurgitation of stomach acid, vomiting, and diarrhea."
"Liver Disharmony Reflecting on the Emotions and Mental Activities: a deficiency of liver qi typically causes a person to be indecisive and adrift, with a marked inability to plan ahead effectively. If gallbladder qi is deficient, the person will be fearful, have a panicky disposition, and have difficulty making decisions.
Certain emotional states can result from, or cause, liver qi disorders. For example, a state of depression brought on by an unexpected event can eventually cause physical symptoms attributed to liver qi stagnation; liver qi stagnation, in turn, can cause mental depression. An intense outbreak of anger can induce sudden headaches, dizziness, chest pain, and other signs of liver-qi flare up (as the Neijing points out: "When a person is angry, the qi moves up); liver qi flaring up can cause one to feel anger. Sometimes a person will suffer a stroke ("qi and blood rushing to the brain") during or shortly after an outburst of anger. Anger is a physiologically normal emotion and will usually not cause disease. The constant suppression of anger or putting oneself always in a situation that generates anger, on the other hand, can be the cause of long ranging problems, since it promotes a chronic state of internal qi stagnation."
"If liver qi is depressed, the liver needs to be treated with substances that restore its coursing function, such as bupleurum (chaihu) or cyperus (xiangfuzi). If prolonged qi stagnation has affected the blood by causing blood stasis, the liver blood needs to moved and the stasis expelled by using substances like persica (taoren) and carthamus (honghua).
In a situation where an outbreak of rage has triggered a rampant and, usually, upwardly mobile qi flow, the liver needs to be calmed with gently descending substances such as peony (baishao) or uncaria (gouteng). If liver qi surges upwards and draws blood along with it, calming and descending substances need to be combined with herbs that cool liver blood, such as moutan (mudanpi); achyranthes (niuxi) will also guide blood downward. If a fit of anger sets liver fire ablaze, liver heat needs to be cleared with herbs like scute (huangqin), or in more serious situations also be addressed with materials that strongly purge liver heat such as gentiana (longdancao).
If wood fails to course and drain earth, the symptoms of stuckness, fullness, and distress in the middle burner need to be alleviated by coursing the liver (e.g., with bupleurum; chaihu) and harmonizing the spleen/stomach (e.g., with white atractylodes; baizhu)."
The link I posted at the top has lots of suggestions for herbs, although you'd probably want to try a pre-made formula or better yet see an herbalist.
I hope that helps.
Posted by former poster on February 6, 2011, at 23:17:01
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by Hombre on February 6, 2011, at 3:56:59
Astonishing how many of those symptoms I have. Thanks for all the info!
My friend is trying to get me an appointment to see TCM Dr. Hembing in Jakarta. Maybe you have heard of him?
Posted by Hombre on February 8, 2011, at 3:39:16
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » Hombre, posted by former poster on February 6, 2011, at 23:17:01
Never been to Indoniasia, but you should have access to Chinese herbs if there is a large Chinese population. It's worth it to dedicate yourself to an herbal regimen and the discipline of taking the herbs regularly. That in an of itself helps a lot with depression, being actively involved in the healing process by consciously using herbs to improve your energy. They will help you to eat better, digest better, and do a little exercise. Your energy will slowly build up if you avoid taxing yourself needlessly and be hopeful. Use that energy to take further steps toward healing yourself with whatever means work for you.
Posted by Tomatheus on February 22, 2011, at 23:38:46
In reply to Goji berries help chronic fatigue, posted by former poster on February 4, 2011, at 0:25:17
Former poster,
I just wanted to thank you for your post about goji berries. After reading your post, I went to iherb and read some reviews from customers who had taken goji berry extract, and because quite a few people said that they had noticed increased energy levels, I decided to give the extract a try for my anergic depression. I've been taking just 300 mg of goji berry extract for a little more than two weeks now, and I've noticed mostly positive results. My energy levels are noticeably higher than they were before I tried the goji berry extract, and my psychomotor retardation (perhaps my worst depressive symptom) is pretty close to being in remission. Surprisingly, I've also noticed some improvements in my cognitive functioning since I've been taking the goji berry extract. Before I took the supplement, I was having extreme difficulty reading anything longer than a short news article (thanks to cognitive impairment that began when I took the medication aminoguanidine some four years ago), but now I'm able to read books again. I noticed a similar improvement in my cognition for about a month after I started taking an herb called kanna, but unfortunately the effectiveness of that herb seems to have worn off. Time will tell, of course, whether or not the goji berry extract that I'm taking will continue to work for me, but it is rare for me to experience benefits that last for as long as two weeks from a supplement or medication.
I should probably add that I've also noticed a few side effects from the goji berry extract that I'm taking: the first being a slightly detectable increase in my ideas of reference, and the second being a little more difficulty with socializing. Neither side effect is very strong, but of course, neither is desirable, and I just thought that I'd report these side effects so anyone interested in trying goji berry extract can know the pros and cons of taking it -- at least based on my experience.
Thanks again, and I hope that you're still doing well with your regimen of goji berries.
Tomatheus
Posted by former poster on February 24, 2011, at 2:29:07
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » former poster, posted by Tomatheus on February 22, 2011, at 23:38:46
Tomatheus: I have been getting a lot of help from P.B. and seems I'm giving nothing in return so its really great to hear someone benefited from my post. I don't do very well without goji. I ran out 2 weeks ago and I really feel the difference. I'm waiting for pay day so I can order more. I'm not sure if I noticed the same side effects that you have. I hope Goji continues working well for you.
Steve
Posted by g_g_g_unit on March 22, 2011, at 22:59:21
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » former poster, posted by Tomatheus on February 22, 2011, at 23:38:46
Hey Tomatheus,
I was really inspired by your reaction to goji berry extract, given that I too suffer from anergia and cognitive impairment secondary to depression and anxiety.
Would you mind revealing the brand of extract you've been using? Also, do you notice any activation/anxiety alongside the improvements in energy and cognitive functioning?
Thanks
> Former poster,
>
> I just wanted to thank you for your post about goji berries. After reading your post, I went to iherb and read some reviews from customers who had taken goji berry extract, and because quite a few people said that they had noticed increased energy levels, I decided to give the extract a try for my anergic depression. I've been taking just 300 mg of goji berry extract for a little more than two weeks now, and I've noticed mostly positive results. My energy levels are noticeably higher than they were before I tried the goji berry extract, and my psychomotor retardation (perhaps my worst depressive symptom) is pretty close to being in remission. Surprisingly, I've also noticed some improvements in my cognitive functioning since I've been taking the goji berry extract. Before I took the supplement, I was having extreme difficulty reading anything longer than a short news article (thanks to cognitive impairment that began when I took the medication aminoguanidine some four years ago), but now I'm able to read books again. I noticed a similar improvement in my cognition for about a month after I started taking an herb called kanna, but unfortunately the effectiveness of that herb seems to have worn off. Time will tell, of course, whether or not the goji berry extract that I'm taking will continue to work for me, but it is rare for me to experience benefits that last for as long as two weeks from a supplement or medication.
>
> I should probably add that I've also noticed a few side effects from the goji berry extract that I'm taking: the first being a slightly detectable increase in my ideas of reference, and the second being a little more difficulty with socializing. Neither side effect is very strong, but of course, neither is desirable, and I just thought that I'd report these side effects so anyone interested in trying goji berry extract can know the pros and cons of taking it -- at least based on my experience.
>
> Thanks again, and I hope that you're still doing well with your regimen of goji berries.
>
> Tomatheus
Posted by Tomatheus on March 23, 2011, at 1:24:49
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » Tomatheus, posted by g_g_g_unit on March 22, 2011, at 22:59:21
g_g_g_unit,
I took the Doctor's Best brand of goji berry extract. I say "took" instead of "take" because I discontinued the supplement last Thursday due to a loss of efficacy. I was doing pretty well on it in terms of both my anergic depression and my cognition until I decided to stop taking kanna, an herb that I had been taking primarily for my cognition. A few days after I stopped the kanna, my depressive symptoms became worse, as did my cognition. I tried restarting the kanna again only to realize that neither my cognition nor my energy level would reach the level that they were at before I stopped the kanna.
Surprisingly, I noticed little difference between the way I felt just before I discontinued the goji berry extract and the way I felt after I discontinued the supplement. That leads me to suspect that I might not have been benefiting from the goji berry extract as much as I thought I was, especially as far as my anergic depression was concerned. In retrospect, I think that the goji berry extract was best for its cognitive-enhancing properties, but even these properties might have been due to synergy between the goji berry extract and the kanna that I was taking instead of just the goji berry extract itself. So, even though I would still say that the goji berry extract reduced the severity of my anergic depression and enhanced my cognition at one point, I'm not sure how strongly I would recommend the supplement, especially as a stand-alone treatment.
I hope that you have a good experience with goji berry extract if you decide to take it, but also keep in mind that I ultimately discontinued the supplement due to a lack of efficacy and did not feel any worse once I was off of the supplement.
Tomatheus
Posted by g_g_g_unit on March 23, 2011, at 4:58:37
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » g_g_g_unit, posted by Tomatheus on March 23, 2011, at 1:24:49
Hey Tomatheus,
Thanks for responding, and I'm sorry to hear about your relapse following the discontinuation of kanna - and, likewise, your inability to recapture its effect.
I just looked the herb up on Wikipedia - as I would be happy to experiment with any agents that hold the promise of improving cognition - but noticed that one of its alkaloids is claimed to be a potent SRI; as I'm still currently in the midst of exploring psychiatric treatments for depression/anxiety, it probably wouldn't be in my best interest to embark on a trial of the herb right now. I may also pass on the goji berry extract for the time being.
> g_g_g_unit,
>
> I took the Doctor's Best brand of goji berry extract. I say "took" instead of "take" because I discontinued the supplement last Thursday due to a loss of efficacy. I was doing pretty well on it in terms of both my anergic depression and my cognition until I decided to stop taking kanna, an herb that I had been taking primarily for my cognition. A few days after I stopped the kanna, my depressive symptoms became worse, as did my cognition. I tried restarting the kanna again only to realize that neither my cognition nor my energy level would reach the level that they were at before I stopped the kanna.
>
> Surprisingly, I noticed little difference between the way I felt just before I discontinued the goji berry extract and the way I felt after I discontinued the supplement. That leads me to suspect that I might not have been benefiting from the goji berry extract as much as I thought I was, especially as far as my anergic depression was concerned. In retrospect, I think that the goji berry extract was best for its cognitive-enhancing properties, but even these properties might have been due to synergy between the goji berry extract and the kanna that I was taking instead of just the goji berry extract itself. So, even though I would still say that the goji berry extract reduced the severity of my anergic depression and enhanced my cognition at one point, I'm not sure how strongly I would recommend the supplement, especially as a stand-alone treatment.
>
> I hope that you have a good experience with goji berry extract if you decide to take it, but also keep in mind that I ultimately discontinued the supplement due to a lack of efficacy and did not feel any worse once I was off of the supplement.
>
> Tomatheus
Posted by Tomatheus on March 23, 2011, at 23:11:45
In reply to Re: Goji berries help chronic fatigue » Tomatheus, posted by g_g_g_unit on March 22, 2011, at 22:59:21
g_g_g_unit,
I just realized that I forgot to answer the question you asked about whether I noticed any increase in activation and/or anxiety while I was taking goji berry extract. I wouldn't say that I felt more anxious, agitated, or irritable on goji berry extract, but I would say that I felt slightly more restless than usual on the supplement, basically feeling more of a need to move around.
Tomatheus
Posted by Hombre on March 24, 2011, at 22:44:51
In reply to Forgot to answer one of your questions... » g_g_g_unit, posted by Tomatheus on March 23, 2011, at 23:11:45
Is your main issue fatigue, like burned out, dead tired, no gas, or is it anxiety/restlessness/insomnia? You need different herbs according to your condition.
Posted by Tomatheus on March 24, 2011, at 23:08:18
In reply to Re: Forgot to answer one of your questions..., posted by Hombre on March 24, 2011, at 22:44:51
> Is your main issue fatigue, like burned out, dead tired, no gas, or is it anxiety/restlessness/insomnia? You need different herbs according to your condition.
Hombre,
My main issue was always lack of energy ... until I took lithium and ended up feeling agitated on top of things ... and until I took aminoguanidine and ended up feeling psychotic, cognitively impaired, intellectually impaired, and restless on top of everything else. Pretty much everything that I take has the problem of helping one set of symptoms while making another set of symptoms worse. Although nothing has really made a lasting impact on my anergic depression.
Tomatheus
Posted by Hombre on March 26, 2011, at 22:11:02
In reply to Re: Forgot to answer one of your questions... » Hombre, posted by Tomatheus on March 24, 2011, at 23:08:18
I would suggest something like Planetary Herbals Rehmannia Endurance. It is a modern formulation of something called Liu Wei Di Huang Wan, which is also easily googled and found in tea pills for about $4-5 a bottle. A bottle lasts a week or longer.
This will gradually build up your energy reserves, but it could take some time. Patience is key. If you still feel too tired or depressed, you may move to something a little more warming, such as the other Rehmannia formula from Planetary (forget the name) or something called Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan, which is like the Rehmannia Endurance plus two warming herbs.
depression/fatigue and anxiety/restlessness are yin and yang. You have to have the right balance. Fire and oil. Chinese herb formulas can adjust yin and yang in very subtle but specific ways.
How's your digestion? If your digestion is not optimal, you will not extract as much energy from your diet.
Posted by Hombre on March 26, 2011, at 22:13:43
In reply to Re: Forgot to answer one of your questions... » Tomatheus, posted by Hombre on March 26, 2011, at 22:11:02
chronic fatigue may be a major cause of depression, simply because when our energy dips low enough, we will start to have strong emotional and mental symptoms. Often addressing fatigue will eliminate the "body" feelings of ultra fatigue, nervousness, lethargy, etc.
As long as one's attitude is positive, when there is enough energy you feel you can do what you want (in life). If you don't have enough energy, you'll naturally stop doing as much in order to conserve. Once you stop doing things you enjoy, depression is waiting to suck you into its dark spiral.
Posted by Tomatheus on March 26, 2011, at 23:18:11
In reply to Re: Forgot to answer one of your questions... » Tomatheus, posted by Hombre on March 26, 2011, at 22:11:02
Hombre,
Thank you for your messages. I think you made some good points.
I don't think that I currently have any problems with digestion, although I did have some problems with diarrhea for the first few months after I took aminoguanidine.
I think that I will try the Rehmannia Endurance formula from Planetary Herbals and then consider the Jin Gui Shen Qi Wan if the first formula doesn't help sufficiently. Rehmannia root is not something that I've tried, and I'm curious to see how it would affect me.
Thanks again for your messages and your suggestions.
Tomatheus
Posted by Hombre on March 27, 2011, at 20:57:15
In reply to Thanks... » Hombre, posted by Tomatheus on March 26, 2011, at 23:18:11
Good luck. And be patient. If those herbs don't help completely, there are plenty of other formulas to try. Unlike drugs, you can tailor herbs to your specific symptoms and eventually strengthen your weaknesses.
This is the end of the thread.
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