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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by former poster on March 16, 2011, at 0:36:58
I started N-Acetylcysteine at 600mg a day 2 weeks ago. I have been getting brief moments of stability and calmness in the last week. Surely it can't be taking effect already? Maybe I'm feeling the effects of spring is in the air? It's been a hell of a winter here.
Posted by morgan miller on March 16, 2011, at 3:35:18
In reply to Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by former poster on March 16, 2011, at 0:36:58
I don't think it's too early. Hope you keep feeling better brotha!
Posted by bleauberry on March 16, 2011, at 16:50:18
In reply to Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by former poster on March 16, 2011, at 0:36:58
What does NAC do?
Well, among many other mechanisms, it helps to increase glutathione levels. That has implications in all kinds of causes of mood disorders....immune dysfunction, low grade chronic systemic infections, toxin accumulation of metals, plastics, etc. Basically NAC is a necessary ingredient to help the clean-up crew get junk out of the cells. So a mood improvement is not a surprise. Takes time though. Months or longer. The damage took a long time to happen and isn't easily reversed in short order.
ALA is another one and goes well with NAC. I take ALA at 12.5mg every four hours (in respect of its half life for a steady blood level so I don't redeposit the toxins).
My doctor who has an additional license in psychiatry and naturopathy suggests NAC frequently. I have some but haven't added it yet. When I do it is likely to be far lower than your dose and probably more frequent.
Some people try NAC and get a bad reaction. That is probably one of two things:
1) The dose was too much.
2) Something similar to a Herxheimer reaction....too many toxins being released all at one time and causing a traffic jam.Some people have tried it but after a month or two gave up on it, thinking that maybe t should work in the same time frame as a clinical trial of pharmaceuticals. Natural approaches take longer generally, but in contrast to meds can offer a permanent fix that stays.
My best mood improvements have come from detox. That's one of the things NAC helps to do. Just a pure guess, since it is one of those substances that does so many different jobs. It isn't as potent or specific at detox as are ALA or DMSA, but it's in the clean-up family.
I don't think it is placebo. If you experience hills and valleys, troughs in your improvement, relapses, whatever, I wouldn't be too quick to throw in the towel. Roller coaster rides where you have random intermittent moments of improvement surrounded by other moments that aren't so good....common pattern in healing deeply at the cellular level.
With all natural approaches, combinations often work better and more wide spectrum than single substance approaches. There are excellent companions for NAC.
Posted by morgan miller on March 16, 2011, at 17:02:32
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by bleauberry on March 16, 2011, at 16:50:18
NAC also modulates NMDA receptors and glutamate which is likely the main reason why it is beneficial for OCD.
I unlike BB do not believe nearly every single case of mental illness is cause somewhat by pathogens. I think this idea is completely absurd and just another way for people to not deal with their own dark reality. The biopsychosocial theory of mental illness is likely to fit most cases.
Posted by former poster on March 16, 2011, at 20:39:56
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by morgan miller on March 16, 2011, at 17:02:32
Great news brotha!! But should I be concerned with toxicity? It's hard to find dosage information on NAC. Need2beatOCD is taking 2400mg.
Quote from wikipedia: >"could potentially cause damage to the heart and lungs.[48] They found that acetylcysteine was metabolized to S-nitroso-N-acetylcysteine"<
Posted by sigismund on March 17, 2011, at 14:22:45
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by morgan miller on March 16, 2011, at 17:02:32
>I unlike BB do not believe nearly every single case of mental illness is cause somewhat by pathogens. I think this idea is completely absurd and just another way for people to not deal with their own dark reality. The biopsychosocial theory of mental illness is likely to fit most cases.
I don't know how you are meant to have any idea. I'm not sure about 'dark reality'. Do you mean something like an unvarnished assessment of one's shortcomings? At this stage of my life I am beyond being shocked or surprised or even feeling the need to take stock, which is to say I accept being somewhat strange, and would certainly not go to the psychiatric profession in search of guidance. I think the safest thing to say is that almost nothing works and once you are f*ck*d you're f*ck*d (thank God for automatic asterisking), though that isn't very positive, is it?
One of the good things about reading history books is that you can say to yourself 'Well, at least I haven't murdered any small nations'.
Aren't you supposed to take heaps of vit C with NAC?
I found 300 or so mg of ALA made me feel great but caused insomnia.
Posted by morgan miller on March 17, 2011, at 22:39:33
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by sigismund on March 17, 2011, at 14:22:45
Sigismund, you and I certainly see things much differently in regards to certain aspects of what contributes to mental illness and how to deal with it. I just happen to come from a position in which I feel we can't ignore what happens in our environment and how this has a lasting impact that stays within us. Sadness, anger, rage, low self esteem, lack of trust, and the causes of all these are what I'm talking about when I say "dark reality". There's a reason why people don't like going to therapy and prefer to stay in a certain amount of denial, it's easier in a big way. The only problem is, there never is any true progress made in the long run and the cycle continues.
I'm fine with everyone having their own way of dealing with and interpreting what is happening within and around them. I'm really not here to try to convince everyone that my beliefs are the right ones. I'm just expressing my beliefs and explaining why I said what I said.
Peace,
Morgan
Posted by morgan miller on March 18, 2011, at 0:16:01
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » morgan miller, posted by former poster on March 16, 2011, at 20:39:56
Hey man, I would just stick with 600 mg and see how things go. Maybe go as high as 1200 mg in split doses twice a day, but you should just do the minimum of what works for you. If you get some relief from 600 mg a day, you may want to just stick with that and build on it doing other things like yoga, meditaion, exercise, and stretching to take you further. I personally would not take 2400 mg of NAC a day. I take 600 mg at night 4 to 5 times a week, mostly for liver health/protection and neuroprotection.
Did you ever try lithium orotate? I forget. What about just getting 150 mg of extended release lithium from your doc and giving that a shot?
Posted by sigismund on March 18, 2011, at 1:09:21
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » sigismund, posted by morgan miller on March 17, 2011, at 22:39:33
You are speaking to someone who spent 15 years doing 5 hours a week psychodynamic psychotherapy.
(So what? Indeed.)
As I have got older I feel easier knowing I have little idea about anything and am more aware of my ignorance with each year.
Posted by former poster on March 18, 2011, at 2:02:30
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » former poster, posted by morgan miller on March 18, 2011, at 0:16:01
Thanks Morgan for that advice. Ok 600mg it is. You take it at bedtime? Giving you some sedation?
I have some Lithium Orotate. The effect from it feels the same to me as lithium carbonate. I keep trying this stuff over and over. Each time I regret taking it. It gives me relief initially but at the cost of feeling anxious/blunted. Impossible to function even at minuscule doses. I wonder why some people do great on Li? Genetics?
Posted by former poster on March 18, 2011, at 2:08:04
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » morgan miller, posted by sigismund on March 18, 2011, at 1:09:21
>>As I have got older I feel easier knowing I have little idea about anything and am more aware of my ignorance with each year.<<
I can relate to that!!!!
Posted by tea on March 19, 2011, at 2:04:11
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by sigismund on March 17, 2011, at 14:22:45
>At this stage of my life I am beyond being shocked or surprised or even feeling the need to take stock, which is to say I accept being somewhat strange, and would certainly not go to the psychiatric profession in search of guidance. I think the safest thing to say is that almost nothing works and once you are f*ck*d you're f*ck*d (thank God for automatic asterisking), though that isn't very positive, is it?
Well Sig, I unfortunately I guess still got shocked and I would have suspected we were about the same stage in life.
Just been shocked lately by a pay decision by someone I can only describe (with the help of a ex-judge as a friend to find the right word) as Unconscionable - definitely a great description of that person though and her treatment.
I must admit I do finally see why Hitler presumably formed his attituse to the Jews- never could understand how anyone could think like that before, so meeting such a person has given me an understanding of many of atrocitioes in history and how they may have started. So ya always learn something new...even if you would deficitely have preferred to NOt meet such a person...
Now you have consistently come across as NOT Unconscionable, even the opposite actually , so not f*ck*d as you say. I added the stars , just in case...
My new word for the month Unconscionable... I like it:)
Posted by tea on March 19, 2011, at 5:22:15
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » sigismund, posted by former poster on March 18, 2011, at 2:08:04
> >>As I have got older I feel easier knowing I have little idea about anything and am more aware of my ignorance with each year.<<
>
> I can relate to that!!!!the true great mind realises ya know such a tiny part of everything...look at how much trhe science of medicine knows of the human body functioning! (or dare I even contimplate psychiatry??)
Posted by morgan miller on March 20, 2011, at 0:00:28
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » morgan miller, posted by former poster on March 18, 2011, at 2:02:30
> Thanks Morgan for that advice. Ok 600mg it is. You take it at bedtime? Giving you some sedation?
> I have some Lithium Orotate. The effect from it feels the same to me as lithium carbonate. I keep trying this stuff over and over. Each time I regret taking it. It gives me relief initially but at the cost of feeling anxious/blunted. Impossible to function even at minuscule doses. I wonder why some people do great on Li? Genetics?Some people just don't respond well to lithium at any dose. You could try a low dose of depakote if the doctor thinks it could help. I hope NAC along with everything else you are doing will be enough.
I just take NAC at night so it doesn't calm me too much during the day. I'm already on some heavy sh*t to keep me more calm.
Posted by former poster on March 21, 2011, at 0:42:24
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by morgan miller on March 20, 2011, at 0:00:28
Hope you are feeling better my friend. The winter has left me in a state of dysphoria that only summer can cure. I would be much healthier if I could skip winter.
I read Depakote effects GABA. Discovered from Valerian. They isolated it and patented it then named it Valproic acid. Doesn't sound too scary. Maybe it help with social anxiey?
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 21:40:01
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC?, posted by sigismund on March 17, 2011, at 14:22:45
> I don't know how you are meant to have any idea. I'm not sure about 'dark reality'. Do you mean something like an unvarnished assessment of one's shortcomings? At this stage of my life I am beyond being shocked or surprised or even feeling the need to take stock, which is to say I accept being somewhat strange, and would certainly not go to the psychiatric profession in search of
guidance. I think the safest thing to say is that almost nothing works and once you are f*ck*d you're f*ck*d (thank God for automatic asterisking), though that isn't very positive, is it?
>
> One of the good things about reading history books is that you can say to
yourself 'Well, at least I haven't murdered any small nations'.sigi, I haven't even made it through thus thread yet, and I am laughing.
Thank you :P
>
> Aren't you supposed to take heaps of vit C with NAC?
>
> I found 300 or so mg of ALA made me feel great but caused insomnia.
Posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 21:48:24
In reply to Re: Getting placebo effect from NAC? » sigismund, posted by floatingbridge on April 28, 2011, at 21:40:01
No disrespect intended to anyone by my above post. Just the phrasing of *small nations*. No offense Morgan.
Hmmm. I yanked glutatione (sp?) out of my mix. Suspected it of headaches. With symptoms coming and going, it's difficult to tell what's what.
NAC was also recommended by my gp for down the road. Hmmm.
Just reading along.
fb
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