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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Hombre on August 30, 2010, at 0:41:41
I've switched my general herb tonic back to Ginseng & Astragalus Combination (Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan) and I have to say that it has a strong antidepressant enhancing effect. I say AD enhancing because I take effexor and remeron and don't know how the herbs would act alone. I wish I could clone myself and have the clone get off the drugs and just play with herbs, supplements and exercise. As for the original me, it'll be a while before I try reducing med dosages if I ever deem that important in the long run.
What it feels like when I take Ginseng and Astragalus Combination (GAC):
I feel warm inside and my blood feels like it is circulating well. This may be hard to believe, but I feel like I am more able to keep my back straight and hold my head up properly. I've done a lot of postural work (somewhat akin to Alexander technique) and am very aware of how posture, energy and mood are intertwined. This does jive with the formula's traditional purported action of strengthening the "upright qi", or preventing "collapse". I've noticed this several times upon starting taking this formula. I've always tended towards a slouch with the chin jutting out. Keeping the back of my neck straight feels like it looks: confident and strong.
Anyway, more than just my posture improving I feel like the blood flow to my brain is improved - my mind feels bright and clear. As I write this I can concentrate pretty well. I feel like I could study from a book. I feel like I'd actually remember most of it, too.
For a good rundown on this famous formula, the following is pretty good. There are some studies cited, but who knows if they are good enough for the scientists:
Posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 19:35:42
In reply to Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on August 30, 2010, at 0:41:41
Welcome back Hombre, sounds like your doing alright.
So what kind of ginseng are you using?
I've used quite a bit of Astragalus and didn't notice an antidepressant effect. I take it mostly for health and longevity.
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on August 31, 2010, at 1:36:44
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by morgan miller on August 30, 2010, at 19:35:42
Hi Morgan,
Hope you're hanging in there alright.
In fact, most modern formulas use Codonopsis as a cheaper and milder substitute for Ginseng. It has the same properties and serves the same function in many formulas. They say Ginseng is best for people over 40. I've taken Korean ginseng extract by itself and a little American ginseng, but it doesn't compare to the synergy that seems to happen with formulas. A strong herb by itself tends to be unbalancing and over time can stop working or cause other problems. Once one gets a feel for his/her constitutional tendencies, there are usually several formulas that can be tried to help balance things out.
Cheers.
Posted by bleauberry on August 31, 2010, at 15:20:35
In reply to Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on August 30, 2010, at 0:41:41
There are several kinds of ginsengs and they are all different...which one are you taking?
Posted by morgan miller on August 31, 2010, at 22:23:14
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by bleauberry on August 31, 2010, at 15:20:35
> There are several kinds of ginsengs and they are all different...which one are you taking?
That's what I was interested in.
Posted by morgan miller on August 31, 2010, at 22:24:47
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on August 31, 2010, at 1:36:44
Hmm, Codonopsis..may have to try it. I need a form of ginseng that is smooth and mild. Thanks for this!
Morgan
Posted by Hombre on September 1, 2010, at 2:58:00
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by morgan miller on August 31, 2010, at 22:23:14
At this point, what I gather is that the "regular" ginseng used in Chinese medicine is Panax ginseng/ren shen ("ren" meaning man, an allusion to the fact that the root looks like a man). It's not steamed and therefore is not as warm as most Korean red ginseng.
Eleuthero/siberian ginseng is not in the ginseng family according to Chinese medicine, although it probably has some similarities in action. I've taken some extract pills and have noticed some buffering from stress. Ginseng and Astragalus Combination/Bu Zhong Yi Qi Wan also has some herbs that course the liver qi (i.e. bupleurum) which they say gets stuck easily due to stress and emotional frustration. I find this formula to help digestion and really help circulation in the upper part of the body from the solar plexus on up to the top of the head. I take something else for the weakening of the kidneys caused by the antidepressants. That one clearly works because I don't have the urinary hesitancy and have some relief from the sexual side effects as well.
As I mentioned, it seems these days you'll tend to find codonopsis/dang shen used in place of real ginseng. It tonifies the Spleen and Lung (Spleen tonification => builds blood; Lung tonification => build "qi"/functional energy) and enhances the immune system. It can be added to soups and rice porridges and can be eaten afterwards. There is nothing special about ginseng and by itself it will not be as effective as a formula.
Posted by Hombre on September 1, 2010, at 3:02:03
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on September 1, 2010, at 2:58:00
Here's a list of the herbs in the formula and their actions. It's also discussed in the article I linked to in the first post.
Huang qi (Astragalus membranaceus root) - abates weakness and fatigue; excessive sweating
Gan cao (Glycyrrhiza uralensis/licorice root) - stimulates the immune system, aids digestion
Dang shen (Codonopsis pilosula root) - enhances qi, tonifies blood
Bai zhu (Atractylodes macrocephala rhizome) - stimulates immune system, aids digestion
Dang gui (Angelica sinensis root) - enriches blood and promotes circulation
Sheng ma (Cimicifuga foetida/bugbane rhizome) - clears heat, relieves toxicity, raises yang
Chai hu (Bupleurum chinense root) - relieves qi stagnation, alleviates chest disharmony
Chen pi (Citrus reticulata/citrus peel) - lubricates intestines, prevents stagnation
Da zao (Ziziphus jujube/Chinese date fruit) - tonifies spleen, nourishes blood, calms spirit
Sheng jiang (Zingiber officinale rhizome/ginger root) - aids circulation
Posted by sigismund on September 7, 2010, at 18:12:31
In reply to Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on August 30, 2010, at 0:41:41
In that linked site, if you go to the bottom of the insomnia search, you get.........
>Experiential Prescription
>A. Radix Salviae Miltiorrhizae (60 g) and brown >sugar; prepared as decoction over low fire; one >dose every night.
>B. Semen Ziziphi Spinosae (30 g, fried), Fructus >Schisandrae (6 g) and Caulis Polygoni Multiflori >(15 g); prepared as decoction; taken daily in two >divided doses; applicable to cases of insomnia >due to blood deficiency.
>C. Poria (15 g) prepared as decoction and mixed >with one fresh egg yolk; taken orally before bedtime; applicable to the cases of insomnia with >asthenia-syndrome.
I'd give B a go. Lots of zizyphus. I've been interested in blood tonics.....I've wondered if they were right for me.
When I was in Vietnam I bought polygonum in the market..........I wondered if it made insomnia worse, but that was so chronic it was impossible to be sure.
Posted by Hombre on September 9, 2010, at 9:38:10
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by sigismund on September 7, 2010, at 18:12:31
Ugh, I read some good things at the library...trying to remember...
- spleen function relates to thyroid and pancreas
- liver stagnation is bad because the liver breaks down hormones - compromised liver function will make it harder to break down stress hormones, that's one reason why depression may involve the liver
OK. Blood tonics. I'm working with Emperor's Teapills (Tian Wang Bu Xin Wan), which acts to tonify blood and Yin, calm and sedate. In fact, I think it was sedating me a little too much. Not bad, but lacking a bit of initiative. I this definitely has to do with taking it with Seroquel...it provides a higher baseline of calmness upon which the Seroquel acts. I believe all the herbs act "underneath" the meds. I have to straddle the fine balance between having enough kidney Yang/drive and burning out the kidney yin/reserves of energy. I do better with a bit of fire in my belly.
The Emperor's Teapills contain zizyphus, salvia, schisandra, but mostly raw rehmannia--either raw or cooked, rehmannia is excellent for kidney issues.
Posted by sigismund on September 9, 2010, at 17:30:32
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by Hombre on September 9, 2010, at 9:38:10
> I have to straddle the fine balance between having enough kidney Yang/drive and burning out the kidney yin/reserves of energy.
That reminds me of 'Empty yin with flaring fire', although I imagine it's something different.
Cooked rehmannia is so delicious I have difficulty controlling myself around it.
I have no idea what rehmannia does. Can you put it in simple terms?
Posted by Hombre on September 10, 2010, at 21:41:01
In reply to Re: Ginseng + Astragalus Combination, posted by sigismund on September 9, 2010, at 17:30:32
Rehmannia is considered to be "the kidney's own food". Going through some lengthy TCM articles on rehmannia, it seems to support the production and preservation of the adrenal-cortical hormones. They say people who take rehmannia don't need to take as much cortisone.
In CM terms it nourishes the kidney, liver and blood. I think it tends more towards nourishing yin and blood; the cooler, calmer, moist aspect of the body. Raw rehmannia ("Sheng Di Huang") is cooler than cooked ("Shu Di Huang"). It is used to reduce fevers and even helps build muscle and bone. This may have to do with its ability to stimulate the production of hormones.
I've used it in several formulas and I think it is a must for me. Although I need more kidney yang, warmth, stimulation, without the raw materials of kidney yin, I'd be burnt out.
I hope that helps.
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