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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Green Willow on November 30, 2009, at 21:18:05
Wondering if any of you have tried the Dr. Hinz protocol for depression? It is based on the theory of replenishing neurotransmitters, theorizing that they become depleted in such illnesses as depression and that that is why sometimes anti-depressants stop working after awhile. The practitioners use a blend of high doses of Vit. C, Calcium, B6, folic acid, L-Lysine, 5Htp, and L-Tyrosine, sold in a product they call Replete. Information can be found at http://www.neuroassist.com
I am seriously thinking about trying this after the first of the year, as Cymbalta is only mildly helping me. Just wondered if any of you have any experience with this protocol or any feedback. Thanks, Green Willow
Posted by senfar on January 29, 2010, at 23:47:25
In reply to Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by Green Willow on November 30, 2009, at 21:18:05
I came across the following answer by Dr.Ray Sahelian in reply to Dr. Marty Hinz's post on Dr.Sahelian's website (www.raysahelian.com). Since it includes a comment about some ingredients in the Neuroassist protocol you may find it useful.
"Q. My name is Marty L. Hinz, MD, President Clinical Research, NeuroResearch Clinics, Inc. Cape Coral, Florida USA. There is a recently published peer reviewed literature relating to neurotransmitters and neurotransmitter testing. I attached a chapter from a new medical text book edited by Ingrid Kohlstadt, MD of Johns Hopkins Medical School and a writing by the University of Minnesota Medical School that is in the May 2009 Journal of NeuroPsychiatry. Of concern is laboratory companies out there that are promoting neurotransmitter testing trying to test basic neurotransmitter science that is not supported by the literature and these peer reviewed articles.
A. A review of the chapter written by D. Marty L. Hinz, M.D. that was attached in the email leads to a section that says,
TABLE 29.1
The Generic Amino Acid Dosing Protocol (milligrams of 5-HTP / milligrams tyrosine) If relief of symptoms is not obtained with level 3 dosing, obtain urinary neurotransmitter testing. Use of proper levels of cofactors and sulfur amino acids is required for optimal results
LEVEL AM NOON 4 PM 7 PM
1 150/1500 150/1500
2 150/1500 150/1500 300/1500
3 150/1500 150/1500 300/1500 300/1500The generic protocol developed for treatment of neurotransmitter dysfunction disease relating to the catecholamine system and/or serotonin system involves the use of tyrosine, 5-HTP, and cofactors. Results do not appear to be dependent on taking the amino acids with or without food. The following cofactors need to be used along with the amino acid precursors:
Vitamin C 1000 mg/day
Vitamin B6 75 mg/day
Calcium 500 mg 500 mg/day
In addition
Cysteine 4500 mg/day in equally divided doses
Selenium 400 mcg/day
Folic acid 2000 to 3000 mcg/dayDr. Sahelian comments: I am concerned that many people on this protocol will have heart rhythm disturbances and insomnia. Tyrosine can cause heart rhythm problems in as a low a dosage as 250 mg. I also do not believe that urinary neurotransmitter testing is necessary, it is just an additional expense. I have not seen any peer reviewed published research that demonstrates that repeatedly testing urinary neurotransmitter levels leads to a better outcome for patients who are depressed.
Many people with mild to moderate depression may find mood elevation with using 50 to 100 mg of 5-HTP supplements bought online or in a health food store without incurring the expense of doctor visits and neurotransmitter testing. Others benefit from SAM-e and St. John's wort. Some people who promote these kinds of tests are likely to monetarily profit from the testing. There have been countless people who have recovered from their depression without incurring the costs of such urinary neurotransmitter testing.
I am also concerned about the high dosages of selenium. Studies have shown that high amounts, usually over 100 mcg a day, can reduce longevity.
Posted by Green Willow on January 31, 2010, at 21:20:43
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on January 29, 2010, at 23:47:25
Senfar, thanks much for passing along this info. I was going to begin the protocal a few weeks ago but decided to hold off awhile longer. I have a difficult time tolerating B6 (get severe insomnia and somewhat hyper) and it seems like everything puts my heart into arrhythmia, so I am thinking you may have saved me alot of trouble. I see Dr. Sehelian's website has alot of info. I will look at it closely. Thanks again, Green Willow
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 20, 2010, at 22:20:24
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on January 29, 2010, at 23:47:25
Now I have seen it all quack and quackier on one blog. At present we have 4 peer-reviwed scientific publications on the topic you are babbling about. One of the authors of these articles is George Trachte Chairman of the University of Minnesota Medical School. This is a serious research project yet both of you proclaimed your self king of knowledge even though you have never really studied the topic of organic cation transporter functional status interpretation. Shedlian is an ultra-egotist, know it all, who proclaims the amino acids we are working with can cause heart problems. He is full of s**t. Our biggest research data base has over 1.5 million patient-days of treatment from over 650 clinics and no heart related problems have been document. Yet Dr. know it all claims he has seen many??? You two alleged doctors give medicine a black eye. Please at least go to pubmed or DovePress.com and read some of the scientific articles this research project has generated before you make further fools out of yourselves commonenting on things you really know nothing about.
Marty Hinz, MD
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 21, 2010, at 2:49:28
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 20, 2010, at 22:20:24
> both of you proclaimed your self king of knowledge You two alleged doctors give medicine a black eye. Please at least go to pubmed or DovePress.com ... before you make further fools out of yourselves commonenting on things you really know nothing about.
Please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
But please don't take this personally, either, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people, and I'm sorry if this hurts you.
More information about posting policies and tips on alternative ways to express yourself, including a link to a nice post by Dinah on I-statements, are in the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#enforceGreen Willow and senfar, I'm also sorry if you felt hurt.
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Thanks,
Bob
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 21, 2010, at 11:22:35
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on January 29, 2010, at 23:47:25
I guess I got a yellow card on the previous response. The point is the man who claims to be an expert in every thing needs to be cautious when he steps in the arena with the man who has dedicated research to just one area. In reading Shehelian's postings on the internet it is clear that he is claiming to be the leading expert of everything yet he has no peer reviewed scientific literature to his credit
Marty Hinz, MD
Posted by marty hinz, MD on August 21, 2010, at 11:25:45
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on January 29, 2010, at 23:47:25
I meant Shahelian has not peer reviewed literature published in the comments he is making on this blog.
Posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 5:31:50
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by marty hinz, MD on August 21, 2010, at 11:22:35
Dr.Hinz, I am not sure how you arrived at the conclusion that Dr.Sahelian is claiming to be an expert on everything. Could you kindly tell me where you read this claim? Based on what I have read he often mentions in answers to many questions that there is insufficient research or testing for him to make an informed comment.
In any case, the context of his comment about your protocol makes it clear that it was you who sent him an email thereby eliciting his reply. If you think so poorly of him a legitimate question would be why you bothered to e-mail him and to post information about your protocol?
You also state that he has not "peer reviewed literature published in the comments he is making on this blog." Could you specify how this disqualifies him from making an informed comment based on what he has gleaned from peer reviewed and/or other literature about the inimical effects of tyrosine and other supplements used in your protocol?
What I have observed regarding Dr.Sahelian's comments on various products is that he cites conclusions and/or observations from a number of peer reviewed journals. He then makes observations based on the extracts from the cited journals. This seems to me to be a reasonable approach.
I am not sure how you can be so certain that he has not published any peer reviewed articles. However, even if this is correct, it would not necessarily invalidate observations made by him about your or any other protocols and/or supplements. It seems to me to be quite reasonable for him to arrive at an opinion based on what he has gleaned from peer reviewed journals about the dangers of the supplements used in your protocol.
Many General Practitioners and specialists have not published peer reviewed material about medicines they prescribe or provide information on for their patients. Does this mean, ipso facto, that they cannot make informed comments about the inimical or beneficial effects of a substance based on their reading of the PDR, peer reviewed literature and other literature?
Finally, I had a consultation with one of the physicians who 'prescribes' your protocol. I was puzzled as to why that particular physician insisted that I needed to take it indefinitely. This raised a red flag for me especially considering the monthly cost. I have subsequently found a number of references on the internet which indicate that this indefinite supplementation requirement is an essential aspect of your protocol. Could you kindly explain why this is so? It seems to me to be unwise. I would have thought that it should be possible to stop supplementation once the damage has been repaired.
One example is in a post here by "ross": http://neurobio.tribe.net/m/thread/69f8fd71-166f-4033-a9ed-36781b8c693c. " I was trained by Marty Hinz,MD and now conduct a practice almost entirely devoted to NeuroReplete...If you work with a health practiononer who has been trained by Dr. Hinz, they can regulate your neurotransmitter levels in about five weeks. Then ask that person to help you regulate the lithium levels to the correct theraputic dose. You will have to remain on this program indefinitely but you will be symptom free."
Posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 5:52:47
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 5:31:50
In all fairness, I should have included the fact that I consulted the physician (a psychiatrist recommended by a member of your staff) I mentioned who prescribes your protocol for help with gradual tapering of diazepam to which I have become addicted after having been given them by my GP for panic attacks caused by severe work-related stress.
I can understand the need for supplements for up to a year or so for repairing damage to neurotransmitters and rebalancing them. But indefinite taking of such supplements raised several concerns for me as I know individuals, including a physician, who have used an orthomolecular approach to succcessfully taper benzodiazepines and SSRIs. However, they have not needed to take supplements for tapering beyond six months to a year. It was because of these concerns of mine that I began doing more research and found Dr.Sahelian's comments in reply to your e-mail.
Posted by Hombre on September 2, 2010, at 7:38:40
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 5:52:47
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this protocol claims to repair anything; for whatever reason that the key neurotransmitters are not at the necessary levels they need to be at, the supplements boost production until they reach those levels.
So, has anyone had results using this protocol?
Also, why 4.5g of cysteine a day? Is that related to 'methylation'? Just curious.
Posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 7:54:13
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by Hombre on September 2, 2010, at 7:38:40
Hombre, Thanks for your reply. I should have been more specific. By repair I was referring solely to damage done by benzodiazepines or SSRI medications. My understanding is that they disrupt various neurotransmitter levels and, if taken long enough, can therefore do damage which takes some time to repair. For example, with a benzo, the brain gets tricked into producing a much lower level of GABA and some others so that one handles stress much more poorly after one stops taking the benzo until adequate GABA starts being produced again. Amino acids in various protocols including this one are therefore intended to help in the repair and/or rebalancing process. My understanding about damage may be wrong so any informed comments are welcome.
Posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 11:40:48
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 7:54:13
It just occurred to me that it would be useful to add some information about cost especially since this is an indefinite (or at the very least a long term) program. I just checked my e-mail exchanges with the physician's office this year re the protocol and the following is an excerpt.
"We would schedule a 1 hour new patient consultation. This includes more in depth history and physical and the cost is $320.00. Follow up appointments are weekly until your Serotonin and Dopamine levels are balanced and those are $85.00 each. Amino acid supplements are approximately $250.00 per month and that charge will continue long term.
Occasion urine tests are done to evaluate your levels at a cost of $200.00. Dr......(name deleted by me) also recommends a complete blood test and from those results may recommend further supplementation like Omega CO3 or Vitamin D."So, apart from the new patient consultation of $320 and $200 for occasional blood tests, my cost would have been about $600 per month ($85 weekly telephone appointments plus $250 for supplements) plus possibly more for additional supplements like Omega 3, Vitamin D, etc. I am unsure if the $250 includes shipping.
I think this information is useful for anyone considering trying the protocol as you have to be prepared for an approximately $600 monthly expenditure for a very long time. As far as I am aware, insurance does not cover this (perhaps the consultations and tests are).
Posted by Nancy Lake on September 7, 2010, at 12:25:15
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on September 2, 2010, at 5:31:50
I am supporting Dr. Heinz in all she has said, for instance the comment Dr.Sahelian made about selenium I do not agree with personally. I take about 600 mcg a day and find it a great benefit. Been doing that for years. It is sad that ego's get ruffled because no one knows all the answers and we are all trying to share information on here without too much judgment.
I am new and so far I have enjoyed the many sharings of others.
Nancy
Posted by senfar on September 8, 2010, at 6:12:44
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by Nancy Lake on September 7, 2010, at 12:25:15
Nancy, I agree with you 100% re there being no room for egotism. It's fine with me that you agree 100% with Dr.Heinz. It should therefore be fine with him if some agree with him and some don't.
Dr.Sahelian is as much entitled to his opinion as Dr.Heinz. Unfortunately, Dr.Heinz was the one who posted personal attacks not only against me and another poster here but also against Dr.Sahelian. These attacks required Dr.Bob's intervention asking Dr.Heinz to be more polite and observe the Board's rules.
We are all trying to share information here and your positive experience does not mean Dr.Heinz's protocol is good for everyone anymore than Dr.Sahelian's critique means it is bad for everyone. The human body is very complex and it is only reasonable that people should be made aware of the negatives as well as the positives since, as you admit, we are all trying to share and learn.
Posted by Green Willow on September 14, 2010, at 13:55:34
In reply to Re: Hinz Protocol~aka~NeuroAssist~aka~Replete, posted by senfar on September 8, 2010, at 6:12:44
It is difficult for me to understand how a doctor, namely Heinz, could go into such a major uncivilized rant when I was seriously considering using his protocal and merely posed a query about it. If nothing else, his attitude has caused me to seriously give second thought to the protocal. At least let's say his rant was no selling point of the product to a potential customer. Senfar, your points about cost are worthy of note. Thanks, Green Willow
This is the end of the thread.
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