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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 19, 2010, at 19:34:06
Tried Bacopa for about a week lately, Planetary Herbals Brand, 225-450mg per dose, 1-2 doses per day, for anhedonic depression with inattentive ADD-like symptoms. Am stopping because it has flattened my affect. Observations:
1) Feels like a stimulant, and is bad for sleep when taken in evening (thus, most of my experience with it has been one dose in the morning, or two doses, the second taken in the early afternoon or so)
2) Possibly buoys mood when taken
3) Possibly leads to lousy mood or irritability when the dose wears off late in the day
4) Flattened affect by 3-5 days of use.
I do not intend to use this herb again, because of the aforementioned flattening of affect. Who wants that?
Posted by janejane on April 20, 2010, at 11:58:46
In reply to Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by psychobot5000 on April 19, 2010, at 19:34:06
Thanks for the report. I remember reading some very positive accounts about it (and even thought about trying it) so it's interesting to see a different opinion. Just goes to show how individual we all are.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 20, 2010, at 15:21:45
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI » psychobot5000, posted by janejane on April 20, 2010, at 11:58:46
Something I forgot to mention:
I take tiny doses of ziprasidone as an A/D. Its main action in this respect is thought to be antagonism on 5ht(2a) and 5ht(2c) receptors (mostly the 2a). From what little I've read, it seems possible that the Bacopa was interfering with those mechanisms somehow.
Posted by ramstone on April 22, 2010, at 10:35:44
In reply to Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by psychobot5000 on April 19, 2010, at 19:34:06
Curious. My therapist just recommended it because I present the same symptoms which you indicate as side effect: on 40mg/day fluoxetine my mood improves on some axes (for instance no self-hatred) but not others (flattened affect/anhedonic). And I'm spacey now, my focus was better depressed, if only because activity was a distraction from psychic pain.
I'll report back after a few weeks.
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 19:28:40
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by ramstone on April 22, 2010, at 10:35:44
> Curious. My therapist just recommended it because I present the same symptoms which you indicate as side effect: on 40mg/day fluoxetine my mood improves on some axes (for instance no self-hatred) but not others (flattened affect/anhedonic). And I'm spacey now, my focus was better depressed, if only because activity was a distraction from psychic pain.
>
> I'll report back after a few weeks.
>It may take a good month before you realize the full effects of Bacopa.
Have you considered adding Rhodiola to the mix? Others that may also be helpful are Acetyl L Carnitine, Ginkgo Biloba(the Nature's Made brand), and Fish Oil.
Also, Memantine may be something to consider. I'm going to talk to my p doc about it this week. I've heard a lot of good things about it.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 22, 2010, at 20:00:55
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 19:28:40
Hi Ramstone, Morganator,
I don't think I could tolerate Bacopa for a month, with what it was doing to me after five days. But then, I've always been a fast responder.
Agreed that Fish Oil is a good one to try--at the very least, it definitely has an effect.
As for Memantine, just FYI, it was a very disappointing experience for me--initial improvement (increased energy and mental efficiency) followed after a few days by a slow slide into drug-induced dementia and depression. I know one other person, at least, who's had similar results, and I don't know of any data that shows sustained improvement with that drug; the current crop of NMDA-affecting drugs don't seem to work, IMO. However, I haven't kept up with research for the last two or three years, so it's possible more favorable data is available now. Anyway, just wanted to suggest that you temper your expectations for memantine, and beware the potential negative S/Es.
> > Curious. My therapist just recommended it because I present the same symptoms which you indicate as side effect: on 40mg/day fluoxetine my mood improves on some axes (for instance no self-hatred) but not others (flattened affect/anhedonic). And I'm spacey now, my focus was better depressed, if only because activity was a distraction from psychic pain.
> >
> > I'll report back after a few weeks.
> >
>
> It may take a good month before you realize the full effects of Bacopa.
>
> Have you considered adding Rhodiola to the mix? Others that may also be helpful are Acetyl L Carnitine, Ginkgo Biloba(the Nature's Made brand), and Fish Oil.
>
> Also, Memantine may be something to consider. I'm going to talk to my p doc about it this week. I've heard a lot of good things about it.
Posted by Deneb on April 22, 2010, at 20:07:30
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by ramstone on April 22, 2010, at 10:35:44
Hello ramstone!
Welcome to Psycho-Babble! I hope Bacopa works for you! Let us know how it works okay?
Deneb
Posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 22:13:17
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI » morganator, posted by psychobot5000 on April 22, 2010, at 20:00:55
Thanks for sharing your experience with Memantine. I've read of both good and bad experiences with it. So far you, Scott, and BB have shared bad experiences while 3 others have shared very positive experiences. The way I see it, I have a 50/50 shot of it being good or bad for me.
It appears that it is possible that us suffering from major depression and anxiety may be the ones that are less likely to respond well to Memantine. We will see if this trend continues with me-if I try it that is.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 22, 2010, at 22:50:11
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI » psychobot5000, posted by morganator on April 22, 2010, at 22:13:17
> Thanks for sharing your experience with Memantine. I've read of both good and bad experiences with it. So far you, Scott, and BB have shared bad experiences while 3 others have shared very positive experiences. The way I see it, I have a 50/50 shot of it being good or bad for me.
>
> It appears that it is possible that us suffering from major depression and anxiety may be the ones that are less likely to respond well to Memantine. We will see if this trend continues with me-if I try it that is.Well, best of luck, whatever you choose to do!
-Psychbot
Posted by g_g_g_unit on April 23, 2010, at 2:08:12
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI » morganator, posted by psychobot5000 on April 22, 2010, at 22:50:11
i think i recall reading that part of Bacopa's mechanism involved normalizing serotonergic activity, so maybe it's working at cross-purposes to your Geodon?
i, like you, experimented with the herb briefly - three days if i recall correctly; what i noticed was an increase in 'lucidity', i.e. my thoughts were much clearer, but no greater in depth. i also found it much harder to focus because i was so caught up in my own thinking.
what was the final memantine dose you ended up on psychobot? i think part of the problem is that people are dosing too high. when i tried a low dose (5mg), the stimulation was almost too much to handle, though i noticed a definite increase in mental stamina and ability to think freely. 10mg was a little depersonalizing, though perfect for focus. after that, it was all downhill. my expectations for treatment are a little more, um, modest these days, so i've spoken to my new psychiatrist about retrialling memantine, with the intentions of possibly remaining on 10mg this time.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 23, 2010, at 9:35:40
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by g_g_g_unit on April 23, 2010, at 2:08:12
Depersonalizing, yes.
Don't remember for certain the dosage I tried on Memantine, but I believe I started high, then rapidly scaled back, to around 10.
As for Bacopa and Geodon, I also read something about Bacopa affecting various SE receptors, and so that's why I thought to post that I take Geodon. Still, I'm a little skeptical about the relationship between the two, because I don't particularly recall Geodon improving my affect--though that would be in comparison to other ADs, not in comparison to nothing. So maybe, yes.
Best,
Psychbot> i think i recall reading that part of Bacopa's mechanism involved normalizing serotonergic activity, so maybe it's working at cross-purposes to your Geodon?
>
> i, like you, experimented with the herb briefly - three days if i recall correctly; what i noticed was an increase in 'lucidity', i.e. my thoughts were much clearer, but no greater in depth. i also found it much harder to focus because i was so caught up in my own thinking.
>
> what was the final memantine dose you ended up on psychobot? i think part of the problem is that people are dosing too high. when i tried a low dose (5mg), the stimulation was almost too much to handle, though i noticed a definite increase in mental stamina and ability to think freely. 10mg was a little depersonalizing, though perfect for focus. after that, it was all downhill. my expectations for treatment are a little more, um, modest these days, so i've spoken to my new psychiatrist about retrialling memantine, with the intentions of possibly remaining on 10mg this time.
>
>
Posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 12:34:30
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by g_g_g_unit on April 23, 2010, at 2:08:12
As far as Memantine and other drugs are concerned, I think dosing is crucial. There are many that believe that drugs are often dosed too high. There are also some that believe that with many drugs it is just a matter of finding the right dose over a period of time in order to find therapeutic success.
Posted by psychobot5000 on April 23, 2010, at 12:52:43
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI » g_g_g_unit, posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 12:34:30
> As far as Memantine and other drugs are concerned, I think dosing is crucial. There are many that believe that drugs are often dosed too high. There are also some that believe that with many drugs it is just a matter of finding the right dose over a period of time in order to find therapeutic success.
Fair, but if the mechanism of action itself is faulty, as may be the case with the primitive NMDA antagonists we currently have to work with, then it doesn't matter what dose you use--the drug will still not succeeed.
Posted by morganator on April 23, 2010, at 13:31:04
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by psychobot5000 on April 23, 2010, at 12:52:43
> > As far as Memantine and other drugs are concerned, I think dosing is crucial. There are many that believe that drugs are often dosed too high. There are also some that believe that with many drugs it is just a matter of finding the right dose over a period of time in order to find therapeutic success.
>
> Fair, but if the mechanism of action itself is faulty, as may be the case with the primitive NMDA antagonists we currently have to work with, then it doesn't matter what dose you use--the drug will still not succeed.I agree. I guess we could make this argument for all of today's primitive psychotropic medications(meaning they are all primitive and archaic at this stage in the game).
Fortunately, all of the psychotropic medications available today end up have a fair amount of therapeutic success in treating many-as is the case with Memantine.
Posted by Lao Tzu on May 2, 2010, at 11:34:31
In reply to Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by psychobot5000 on April 19, 2010, at 19:34:06
Tried it. Don't like it.
Posted by ramstone on May 4, 2010, at 15:55:32
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by ramstone on April 22, 2010, at 10:35:44
> Curious. My therapist just recommended it because I present the same symptoms which you indicate as side effect: on 40mg/day fluoxetine my mood improves on some axes (for instance no self-hatred) but not others (flattened affect/anhedonic). And I'm spacey now, my focus was better depressed, if only because activity was a distraction from psychic pain.
>
> I'll report back after a few weeks.Two weeks into adding bacopa to the cocktail (40 mg fluoxetine, 450mg buprprion, 1 bacopa capsule daily). I have to say I was a little bubbly this past weekend. Whether or not it's bacopa I can't say of course.
However, I'm still on the spacey side. And right now cognition seems to be the worst problem. I do have methylphenidate that I can add but I really don't like taking it, certainly not every day. But it seems to be a potentiate for some.
More in 2 more weeks.
Posted by ramstone on May 20, 2010, at 11:46:16
In reply to Re: Bacopa Experience FYI, posted by ramstone on May 4, 2010, at 15:55:32
Well I'll make this one last report, since the thread seems to have petered out. Taking 2 Bacopa capsules/day, 40mg fluoxetine, 450mg buproprion). And I have to say I feel pretty loose. Not apathetic, but still a little spacey. Although I have them, I'm not sure any taking an amphetamine would be would it cost/benefit-wise.
That's always a rub with these cocktails, you never know which is doing what, potentiating another, etc. But right not I'm basically in a it-aont-broke-not-fixing-it state.
This is the end of the thread.
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