![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Montag on November 6, 2009, at 3:15:42
Hi, Bleauberry, I read your posts and took great interest in your experience with mercury detox and DMSA. I don't know whether you're still reading this post, but if you are -- and assuming you have time for this sort of thing, of course -- do you think I could ask you a few questions?
Im fairly certain I have mercury toxicity. Ive had brain fog for years, Ive eaten a ton of seafood, and a recent hair analysis showed somewhat elevated levels of the metal. Plus I managed recently to aggravate the brain fog in two abortive attemps at chelation. In the first, I took a mere ten drops of cilantro tincture (one time) along with large doses of chlorella. In the second, I took about 30 mg. of DMSA three times a day for two days (with no regard for the 4-hour rule). In each case the brain fog spiked so alarmingly that I lost my nerve and quit the process. My reaction to these substances tells me that I must be carrying excessive mercury.
The recommendations in your posting make good sense, and Im going to try the DMSA again in the way that you outline. Here are my questions:
1. My DMSA experiment was only a few days ago, and the brain-fog spike has not yet completely subsided. Do you think I should wait until I feel normal before starting in again? In general, how long did you wait after becoming ill on a too-large dose before starting again on a smaller one?
2. You say that once the right DMSA dose has been hit upon, the length of the rounds and the time between rounds should vary according to how one feels. What sorts of reactions should I be looking for? If the dose is appropriately small, and if one is taking steps (as I will) to prevent candida growth, will the metals still accumulate and start making me feel terrible, and is this the sign to take a break? And then is it just a matter of waiting until the symptoms clear before starting up again? (I notice that some doctors recommend a three-days-on, eleven-days-off approach, but then theyre always assuming much higher doses of DMSA.)
3. How many rounds had you done before you finally started noticing an improvement in your longstanding symptoms? (And was brain fog ever a part of your picture?)
4. I'm going to be taking garlic, MSM, chlorella, minerals, milk thistle, vitamin C, psyllium husk, apple pectin, and N-acetyl cysteine, and an anti-fungal formula as my support protocol. Was there anything else that you found to be indispensable?
5. You mentioned Dr. Cutlers book, and Im aware of his claim that DMSA cannot chelate mercury from the brain. Does your experience support this? If DMSA really cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, its hard to see how it could alleviate depression or aggravate brain-fog symptoms. (Surely those results indicate that it's doing SOMETHING inside the brain.) Anyway, if it doesnt cross the BBB, does that mean I should expect no relief from brain fog on DMSA alone?
6. What approach did you take with cilantro, and what kind of experience did you have?
I dont know how much of all that you can answer, but Id appreciate anything you can tell me. I live in Japan, so unfortunately I have to do this on my own without the help of a physician. Reading posts like yours makes me feel its possible to pull it off, but of course the whole thing makes a little nervous. Id love to get Cutlers book, but my god, that thing is expensive. Anyway, Im sorry for the length of this posting; I really didnt mean to go on that long. Thanks very much for your time.
-- Montag.
> Followup to both of your previous posts...
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> I'm glad your amalgams are gone! Good move.
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> Your doctor's idea of getting acclimated to DMSA is a good one. But actually, it is kind of misleading the way that is stated. DMSA in a healthy person is neutral. It doesn't feel like anything. Sugar pill. It is only when it is moving metals through the body that you feel it. So, you are not getting acclimated to DMSA itself, you are removing metals. And the more your remove, the less bad you feel from DMSA, so it seems like you are getting acclimated to DMSA. In reality, metals are coming down.
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> As your doctor hinted at, ALA too soon is actually a bad idea. It crosses the brain barrier. Which is good. But if the body's burden of metals is high, it is bad that ALA crosses the barrier, because it will take those high levels into the brain. The strategy is to first get the body levels very low, and then introduce ALA to get the brain mercury.
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> Cilantro is another option. I tried it this last round and liked it a lot better than ALA. Do not ever take Cilantro without taking DMSA at the same time though. Cilantro can stir up a lot of metals, more than it can hold onto.
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> If the dose of DMSA is too high, or if the doses are spread too far apart, redistribution will happen. And that doesn't feel good. Your description of how you felt bad is common. For me, I had heavy fatigue, significantly worsened depression for a few days, pounding headache, and bad sleep. Unwell was a good way to describe it.
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> Basically, if you feel bad on DMSA or after the round, the dose has to be smaller. You are moving too many metals too fast. There will always be some distribution at the end of a round, but it can be kept to a minimum by matching the size of the dose to the size of the overall toxicity. That means real small doses to start with, and months later you will be on much larger doses comfortably, because a lot of metals are gone.
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> Am important thing to know is that higher doses of DMSA do not work in linear fashion. In other words, 50mg does not remove twice as much as 25mg. With each larger dose, you only remove a little bit more metal.
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> When I started, it was 25mg every 4 hours. Way too much. I felt like I got hit by a dumptruck. Like someone threw me out of a car going down the highway. I found in the next rounds that the highest dose I could tolerate comfortably was 3mg. Then after several of those I got up to 6mg. After several of those, 12.5mg.
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> Last week I finished another round of 12.5mg. It felt like a sugar pill, except that I felt good while on it. I had no bad after-effects. That tells me I have removed a lot of metals, and that very little redistribution is happening. It also tells me I am ready for a larger dose.
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> Mercury and lead moving through our bodies does indeed feel bad. How could it not? I mean, the second most toxic substance on the planet flowing through us? The bad stuff you feel afterwards is whatever metals didn't make it to excretion before that last dose wore off. Redistribution.
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> Keeping a steady blood level is extremely important. Most doctors are not aware of this strategy. The halflife of DMSA is about 4 hours. It is important for a new dose to take over when the previous dose is wearing off. That prevents redistribution.
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> The strategy includes waking up in the middle of the night to take the 4 hour dose. I did that maybe half of my rounds, and on others I skipped that dose. What I discovered was that in the first 8 rounds or so, I could not skip that night dose. It did indeed cause some bad feelings. But now I can skip that dose and not suffer from it. As the metals come down, redistribution is less of a problem. But in the early going it has to be taken very seriously. I had an alarm clock next to my bed, a glass of water right there, and the pill. I would open my eyes just long enough to shut off the alarm clock, swallow the pill, and and then immediately continue my sleep.
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> You should get good at customizing your doses. I did it by emptying out a capsule onto a plate and dividing the powder into equal size piles. For example, a 25mg capsule I cut into 2 piles, and then cut each of those into 2 piles, for 4 6.25mg doses. Then I could scoop each pile with the help of a razor blade onto a knife and slide it into a size AA large empty capsule. I believe you can also mix the powder in water, stir it well, and drink custom doses. A glass with measuring lines on it would be needed for accuracy. But it doesn't store well, so you'll need to make a new batch each day. And you want the water to be pure so the DMSA is not wasted by binding to impurities in the water.
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> When I spent a lot of time browsing through chelation forums, it was interesting to see how people were feeling so bad in the early days with doses as low as 6mg, but then months later they are doing 50mg and feeling good.
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> Nowadays I feel good on rounds. The first day feels a bit weirdish. Not bad, just kind of mildly drugged almost like a tiny dose SSRI. But day 2 and day 3 are really pretty good. Better than I have felt in a long time. I look forward to rounds just to feel that. It is an almost cured feeling. No depression, no anxiety, and I actually have interest and motivation to want to do things. It is great. Really great.
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> But as the round goes longer, I have gone as much as 10 days at a time, I start feeling bad again. From what I understand, that is most likely yeast. Yeast love DMSA and mercury. So as those things are moving through us, they are having a feast and they quickly multiply. That causes brain fog, fatigue, depression. So it is important to keep yeast under control. Which means during rounds, avoid sugars, and add to your daily supplements anti-yeast things such as Nystatin, Grapefruit Seed Extract, Caprylic Acid, and high dose garlic. The anti-parasite herbs with combos of Black Walnut Hull, Wormwood, and Cloves are also very handy. With some experimentation as to which herbs are best for you, they will keep you feeling good on a round without allowing the yeast to sabotage your efforts.
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> Many naturopaths or physicians suggest protocols such as 50mg DMSA twice a day, 3 times a day, for a few days. Or maybe 100mg once a day every other day. Stuff like that. All bad. Bigtime redistribution. Granted, if someone were to keep on those schedules for a long time, they would eventually get the metals out. But in the meantime during the journey, they caused a lot of damage that could have been avoided. They got repoisoned many times when they should not have.
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> The best rules to guide you are:
> 1) Lower the dose as much as you need to in order to tolerate the round with minimum bad effects. You will still remove a lot of metal even at tiny dose.
> 2) Give a great deal of respect to the halflife rule...every 4 hours.
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> I hope this helps! You're awesome. Keep at it.
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Posted by nolvas on November 6, 2009, at 3:33:16
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by Montag on November 6, 2009, at 3:15:42
Sorry to butt in but I noticed that you don't have Selenium on your list, this is a very important chelator of heavy metals such as Mercury, cadmium and lead. For any Mercury detox I would definitely add this to your detox regimen. Also and importantly certainly of Mercury toxicity can be confirmed by a blood test. Doctors don't seem to be interested in my experience as they go n the evidence presented and to them mercury amalgam poisoning doesn't exist.
My advice is to get a test for Mercury to be absolutely certain there are good labs such as Genova Diagnostics. Although you will need the advice and help of a nutritional practitioner/functional medicine practitioner for many tests at a lab.
You can also have a look at this regarding Mercury Toxicity.
http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C586629.html
A suggested Mercury detox protocol :
http://www.mgoldmandds.com/detox1.htm
A video regarding Mercury toxicity and fillings :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA&feature=player_embedded#
I have at least 10 amalgam fillings and it's certainly true that very small amounts of Mercury vapour are emitted from the fillings every day. I wonder whose clever idea it was to put one of the most toxic metals second only after Plutonium in peoples mouths! Dentistry has taken the opinion that Mercury amalgam is not dangerous and doesn't appreciably affect health, of course if they admitted it then they'd have some explaining to do, and it would be costly. The official stance is that it doesn't affect health so it's doubtful that a doctor will test you for Mercury toxicity.
Posted by bleauberry on November 7, 2009, at 5:54:59
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by Montag on November 6, 2009, at 3:15:42
> Im fairly certain I have mercury toxicity. Ive had brain fog for years, Ive eaten a ton of seafood, and a recent hair analysis showed somewhat elevated levels of the metal. Plus I managed recently to aggravate the brain fog in two abortive attemps at chelation. In the first, I took a mere ten drops of cilantro tincture (one time) along with large doses of chlorella. In the second, I took about 30 mg. of DMSA three times a day for two days (with no regard for the 4-hour rule). In each case the brain fog spiked so alarmingly that I lost my nerve and quit the process. My reaction to these substances tells me that I must be carrying excessive mercury.
I think you have done some amazing detective work. Your experience is 100% accurate with anyone else who has been mercury toxic and/or lead toxic.
The fact that it is in your hair is actually a plus...it means the toxicity has not advanced so badly that it is no longer in your hair...long story...with chronic high level longterm toxicity, mercury displaces even itself from getting into the hair...and thus accidental negative lab results...and many other good metals in the hair are either nonexistent or widely skewed in strange abnormal patterns. Your toxicity does not appear to have advanced that far, but regardless, appears serious based on your DMSA challenge.
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> The recommendations in your posting make good sense, and Im going to try the DMSA again in the way that you outline. Here are my questions:Recommendations come from the excellent book Amalgam Illness by Phd Andrew Cutler. Archives of his writings can also be found in google searches, autism forums, and omnibasu files.
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> 1. My DMSA experiment was only a few days ago, and the brain-fog spike has not yet completely subsided. Do you think I should wait until I feel normal before starting in again? In general, how long did you wait after becoming ill on a too-large dose before starting again on a smaller one?My own experience is that I had to wait until I knew I had returned to my baseline again. If I jumped in too soon, it just got bad again real fast.
People find their own schedule. Some 3 days on, 11 days off; 4 days on, 3 days off; 7 days on, 7 days off; one guy just went everyday for 3 months straight. My pattern goes like this...I feel a little worse the first day, not much change from that on the second day, third day I feel better than I have felt in a long time, 4th day also good but not as good as the 3rd, 5th starting to feel I'm slipping, and by day 6 I am ready to call it quits. Then I wait...maybe a week, maybe 2 weeks, maybe a month, and then do it again. Everyone will find their own comfort zone schedule.
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> 2. You say that once the right DMSA dose has been hit upon, the length of the rounds and the time between rounds should vary according to how one feels. What sorts of reactions should I be looking for? If the dose is appropriately small, and if one is taking steps (as I will) to prevent candida growth, will the metals still accumulate and start making me feel terrible, and is this the sign to take a break? And then is it just a matter of waiting until the symptoms clear before starting up again? (I notice that some doctors recommend a three-days-on, eleven-days-off approach, but then theyre always assuming much higher doses of DMSA.)The lower the dose, the longer you can tolerate rounds. It is not unusual in chelation forums for people to be at 3mg, 6mg, or 12.5mg for starters. Any more is just too hard and they can feel it. As the toxic burden gently comes down with the low doses, higher doses can be tolerated. Me, I started at 25mg. Way too much. 12.5mg, still too much but do-able. 6mg, better. 3mg, not enough. I think my best results came with 12.5mg.
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> 3. How many rounds had you done before you finally started noticing an improvement in your longstanding symptoms? (And was brain fog ever a part of your picture?)I've done only 12 rounds. I never did experience improvement, except during the middle of rounds when I had dramatic stunning improvement. I loved DMSA in the middle of a round. What I didn't know is that I was dealing with Lyme disease and Candida...both major brain fog causers. Removing metals was only part of what needed to be done. A very important crucial part, but by itself was not going to do the job. Most people experience improvement somewhere in the round 20 to round 60 area.
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> 4. I'm going to be taking garlic, MSM, chlorella, minerals, milk thistle, vitamin C, psyllium husk, apple pectin, and N-acetyl cysteine, and an anti-fungal formula as my support protocol. Was there anything else that you found to be indispensable?I think you might find Olive Leaf extract helpful. Though I haven't tried it yet, HuperzineA is supposed to be good for brain fog according to my Lyme MD.
It would be wise to start each supplement one at a time so you know what is doing what. Too much sulfur (garlic, NAC) could be either a good thing or a bad thing...everyone responds differently to sulfur.
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> 5. You mentioned Dr. Cutlers book, and Im aware of his claim that DMSA cannot chelate mercury from the brain. Does your experience support this? If DMSA really cannot cross the blood-brain barrier, its hard to see how it could alleviate depression or aggravate brain-fog symptoms. (Surely those results indicate that it's doing SOMETHING inside the brain.) Anyway, if it doesnt cross the BBB, does that mean I should expect no relief from brain fog on DMSA alone?My experience tells me that DMSA definitely without any doubt does something in the brain. It "feels" like it takes mercury/lead out of the brain, if you ask me. I can't describe it. I disagree with Cutler on that issue. Also, he is assuming that the blood brain barrier is healthy and intact...which in the case of Lyme disease and/or mercury damage, it may not be healthy or intact. Maybe DMSA cannot get through a healthy BBB, but can get through a compromised one? That's my feeling.
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> 6. What approach did you take with cilantro, and what kind of experience did you have?I ate it raw by a mouthful once a day, while on DMSA. I was fearful of stirring up too much. I really didn't feel anything from it. I did like Chlorella and DMSA combination. It felt better than DMSA alone.
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> I dont know how much of all that you can answer, but Id appreciate anything you can tell me. I live in Japan, so unfortunately I have to do this on my own without the help of a physician. Reading posts like yours makes me feel its possible to pull it off, but of course the whole thing makes a little nervous. Id love to get Cutlers book, but my god, that thing is expensive. Anyway, Im sorry for the length of this posting; I really didnt mean to go on that long. Thanks very much for your time.Most people are like you...they have to do it alone. Not by choice, but forced into. The medical profession can only do so much. What they know is only a sliver of what needs to be known. Things that actually work are being discovered by real people like you and me, and mothers of Autistic children. They are the ones making the groundbreaking discoveries, not the researchers. In actuality, it is us giving the researchers the right stuff to research. And it's not just mercury. It's Lyme disease, Irritable Bowel Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Alzheimers, Cancer...many of the most profound discoveries and cures are coming not from the labs, but from the people.
When you are backed into a corner with disease, and there is no one that can help you, there is no other choice. That actually is a good thing...it makes us stronger, smarter, wiser, and years from now will advance the entire medical profession as these things trickle into researcher's offices and medical journals.
As a final note, I would bet yeast/Candida is a bigger problem for you right now than you are aware. I would tackle that with the same aggressiveness you do mercury.
I mentioned Olive Leaf. It is broadly microbial. A good thing, but not the reason I mentioned it. Some of the "side" benefits people commonly experience are decrease in brain fog, more energy, less pain, and less depression. It is doing a good job for many people with Fibromyalgia or Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, both of which have brain fog and depression as co-symptoms. It is not a stimulant or an upper, but somehow has a way of uplifting and clearing. Starting dose would be standardized capsules 500mg one three times per day.
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> -- Montag.
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Posted by bleauberry on November 7, 2009, at 6:06:36
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by nolvas on November 6, 2009, at 3:33:16
Selenium is a good supplement for mercury issues. It is not a good chelator, but it does help to bind up existing free mercury. And it is crucial for many biochemical processes in the body that have probably been comprised by disease or mercury.
If you wanted a real good test, though I don't think you need one, you would need to see a Naturopath or an Integrative MD. They have access to the lab tests. What you would do is take a urine sample, then take 1200mg of DMSA in a single dose and collect urine for the next 6 hours. The two urine samples are compared to each other and compared to general population averages. The test you do not want is a blood mercury test...there won't be any mercury in your blood. It already found a home in your fat tissues, nervous system, brain, and glands, where it will stay forever unless forced out by chelation. A blood test will only confirm recent mercury exposure within the last 72 hours.
There is no better or safer chelation method I am aware of than low dose frequent dose DMSA. All the others are helpful at restoring a damaged body or keeping a healthy one healthy, but will not pull the large amounts of deeply stored mercury, and what they do pull will not be done safely...a lot of redistribution on the way to excretion. DMSA is the only one that will hang onto it all the way to the toilet. Cutler agrees that Chlorella and Cilantro probably work, but should be reserved for DMSA failures/intolerances since we don't know how those herbs work or what their halflives are...too many unknowns. But they do work.
> Sorry to butt in but I noticed that you don't have Selenium on your list, this is a very important chelator of heavy metals such as Mercury, cadmium and lead. For any Mercury detox I would definitely add this to your detox regimen. Also and importantly certainly of Mercury toxicity can be confirmed by a blood test. Doctors don't seem to be interested in my experience as they go n the evidence presented and to them mercury amalgam poisoning doesn't exist.
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> My advice is to get a test for Mercury to be absolutely certain there are good labs such as Genova Diagnostics. Although you will need the advice and help of a nutritional practitioner/functional medicine practitioner for many tests at a lab.
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> You can also have a look at this regarding Mercury Toxicity.
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> http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C586629.html
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> A suggested Mercury detox protocol :
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> http://www.mgoldmandds.com/detox1.htm
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> A video regarding Mercury toxicity and fillings :
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> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA&feature=player_embedded#
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> I have at least 10 amalgam fillings and it's certainly true that very small amounts of Mercury vapour are emitted from the fillings every day. I wonder whose clever idea it was to put one of the most toxic metals second only after Plutonium in peoples mouths! Dentistry has taken the opinion that Mercury amalgam is not dangerous and doesn't appreciably affect health, of course if they admitted it then they'd have some explaining to do, and it would be costly. The official stance is that it doesn't affect health so it's doubtful that a doctor will test you for Mercury toxicity.
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Posted by Montag on November 10, 2009, at 3:06:59
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by bleauberry on November 7, 2009, at 5:54:59
Bleauberry, thanks so much for the detailed reply. Ive just entered day four of my new DMSA round (6.25 mg at 4-hour intervals), and I thought Id give a quick report and ask a few more questions, if thats all right.
My experience so far has been rather similar to yours. I was a little shaky for the first couple of days, but by now Im mostly feeling good and noticing some alleviation of the brain fog, particularly compared to the days following the first DMSA attempt. (That was horrible; like something was biting my brain.) At times I begin to feel somewhat achy toward the end of a 4-hour interval (I guess thats the redistribution starting), but taking the next dose seems to clear it up.
For me this kills any final doubts about my being mercury-toxic, and makes me inclined to agree with you that DMSA is in fact able to act directly upon the brain.
Here are a few more things I wanted to ask. Again, I have to apologize for the length of this. Once I get the hang of it Im certain I wont be asking so many questions.
1. Knowing that Im bound to feel worse again whenever I stop the round, Im really not that eager to do so. I may well start to deteriorate pretty soon as you said you do toward the sixth day, but in case I do continue to feel okay, do you know of any reason I cant continue the round, even though its my first one?
2. Would it be wise to continue at 6.25 mg for a couple of rounds, or would you suggest bumping it up if I still feel good after this one? (Maybe that depends on what kind of redistribution symptoms I get after stopping.)
3. When you start a new round at a higher dose and it proves to be too much, do you think its best to drop down to a smaller dose for the rest of the round, or try to finish it out at the higher level?
4. I gather that both DMSA and ALA are meant to be taken on an empty stomach, but even though I make a point of eating after each dose, I often still feel partially full when its time for the next one. And I know it will be even harder on the 3-hour ALA cycle. Any idea how critical this really is?
5. Another thing thats proving tough is falling asleep again after the 3:00 am dose. (I tend toward insomnia to begin with.) This is looking ahead a bit, but I think getting up TWICE for the three-hour ALA dose could well wreck my sleep pattern and my sanity. Im wondering if you or anyone you know has tried separating the nighttime ALA doses by 4 hours, while sticking to the 3-hour schedule during the day, and whether such a compromise would be enough to taint the whole endeavor. (It would be a nice bonus if the mercury removal itself enabled me to fall asleep more readily. Everyone says mercury disrupts nearly everything, so who knows.)
6. From what Ive seen on the web, ALA seems to be the real core of Cutlers program, with DMSA playing more of a supporting role, at least for brain mercury. Yet you seem to have gotten your main results with DMSA, and you indicated that you werent crazy about ALA. I was just wondering: are you making a conscious departure from Cutler on that point, or are you going to add ALA back in later on? Do you know of anyone who has recovered using DMSA alone?
7. After making that earlier posting I saw on the web that Cutler really comes down on things like chlorella, MSM or high-sulfur foods, and any form of cysteine, including NAC, and it looks like his adherents follow this fairly religiously. Ive been (or at least I was) taking all of these for quite awhile without negative effects; in fact if anything they seem to help me. And of course every other source I check insists that these are a must to a chelation protocol. You referred to a couple of these in your last two posts, but Im wondering which if any you have used and what your view is regarding their "dangerousness."
(By the way, in your reply to my question about cilantro, you said that you liked the DMSA-chlorella combination. Did you mean DMSA-cilantro?)
8. Last one: Do you know of any good supplements to help heal the brain tissue as the mercury comes out?
Many thanks in advance, and again, I wont hit you with another list this long. But its such an enormous help to have the advice, especially at the beginning. I appreciate the Olive leaf recommendation and will probably try it soon. And I think youre right about candida -- Ive always suspected it in myself, and recently Ive managed to get partial relief from brain fog by taking pantethine, which detoxifies acetaldehyde, a yeast by-product. Not the same as getting rid of candida itself, but certainly a help. And I have started taking anti-fungals along with the DMSA.
(Thanks also to Nolvas for the selenium tip; I am taking that but forgot to mention it.)
-- Montag
Posted by Montag on November 10, 2009, at 4:31:24
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by bleauberry on November 7, 2009, at 5:54:59
Well that's a surprise.... I just did a little checking on ALA and found as many sources saying to take it with meals as those saying to do so on an empty stomach. It would be wonderful to think I have freedom of choice on this point -- with only three hours between doses, the empty-stomach thing sounds nearly impossible.
-- Montag
Posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 4:35:03
In reply to Re: Mercury, posted by bleauberry on November 7, 2009, at 6:06:36
Thanks for the reminder of chlorella. I bought some then forgot. I've used it before a few years ago..and cilantro I grew for a while*but HATe the taste of the stuff..apparently its one of those things where you hate or love it?
BTW I know selenium binds mercury(irreversibly?) in a seleno mercury compound. Wondered though if this compound is chelated..I doubt it?
I suppose it means your body may test as higher but apparently "safe" mercury if the selenium level is high?
SEe Intuit selenium and mercury in diet in google on here
I too have many amalgam filling sbut a LOT of trouble and dsiasters removing them , so only partly(perhaps half removed).. probably had about 3 times your level at a guess.. and yes, my teeth broke in half too:)
Posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 23:52:58
In reply to Re: Mercury » bleauberry, posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 4:35:03
like I assumed
Tried to say above that I assumed the bound mercury to selenium would not chelate as well or the same (assumed the binding would hold and prevent or change at least the binding to the chelating agent...if that's how it works). I'm also assuming that the bound selenium-mercury compound is not excreted ..or not much but remains in tissues/organs etc?. I haven't looked into this, but to me, if I EVER (dountful due to the years of numerous problems I am still going thru from the removals) get rid of all my amalgams, I think I'd try to find out about the selnium-mercury binding more and maybe stop the selnium if it cut out the chelating effect?
Sorry I could not when I looked years ago find out much about this
Posted by janejane on January 17, 2010, at 6:22:16
In reply to Re: Mercury(cont)- for blueberry, posted by tea on January 16, 2010, at 23:52:58
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCR-4DK68V3-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1169090026&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=461aa2e7a27e2b13363ec7062bdbdf00
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> like I assumed
> Tried to say above that I assumed the bound mercury to selenium would not chelate as well or the same (assumed the binding would hold and prevent or change at least the binding to the chelating agent...if that's how it works). I'm also assuming that the bound selenium-mercury compound is not excreted ..or not much but remains in tissues/organs etc?. I haven't looked into this, but to me, if I EVER (dountful due to the years of numerous problems I am still going thru from the removals) get rid of all my amalgams, I think I'd try to find out about the selnium-mercury binding more and maybe stop the selnium if it cut out the chelating effect?
> Sorry I could not when I looked years ago find out much about thisTea, this is something I've been wondering about too. I'm not very good at understanding the science stuff, so I find it very confusing. My take is that selenium is probably a good thing to take regularly to neutralize mercury, but should maybe be stopped temporarily during chelation rounds (the last part is what I'm getting from the study you cited). I don't really like the idea of the bound mercury staying in my body (since the chelators don't appear to pull it out), but it's presumably not harmful. In some ways it seems like a selenium only strategy might be prudent because it wouldn't stir up the stored mercury like chelators seem to. (I get the sense sense that if you're not very careful, some of the stuff that's stirred up could get redistributed rather than excreted.) I'm not sure how effective it would be compared to using chelators, though. I suppose it could be tried as a first strategy, and the progress measured.
Posted by tea on January 25, 2010, at 23:44:08
In reply to Re: Mercury(cont)- for blueberry » tea, posted by janejane on January 17, 2010, at 6:22:16
> > http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TCR-4DK68V3-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1169090026&_rerunOrigin=google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=461aa2e7a27e2b13363ec7062bdbdf00
> >
> > like I assumed
> > Tried to say above that I assumed the bound mercury to selenium would not chelate as well or the same (assumed the binding would hold and prevent or change at least the binding to the chelating agent...if that's how it works). I'm also assuming that the bound selenium-mercury compound is not excreted ..or not much but remains in tissues/organs etc?. I haven't looked into this, but to me, if I EVER (dountful due to the years of numerous problems I am still going thru from the removals) get rid of all my amalgams, I think I'd try to find out about the selnium-mercury binding more and maybe stop the selnium if it cut out the chelating effect?
> > Sorry I could not when I looked years ago find out much about this
>
> Tea, this is something I've been wondering about too. I'm not very good at understanding the science stuff, so I find it very confusing. My take is that selenium is probably a good thing to take regularly to neutralize mercury, but should maybe be stopped temporarily during chelation rounds (the last part is what I'm getting from the study you cited). I don't really like the idea of the bound mercury staying in my body (since the chelators don't appear to pull it out), but it's presumably not harmful. In some ways it seems like a selenium only strategy might be prudent because it wouldn't stir up the stored mercury like chelators seem to. (I get the sense sense that if you're not very careful, some of the stuff that's stirred up could get redistributed rather than excreted.) I'm not sure how effective it would be compared to using chelators, though. I suppose it could be tried as a first strategy, and the progress measured.Scientists find it very confusing too :-)
I looked at selenium back in 2004 , pulled a few studies from the library and came up with a half life of about 6 mths on average. I wrote it up , then lost it!!! sigh
anyway, if true that means you can stop selenium at least 3 mths before and still be high enough in it, and 6 mths before you will still have about half the level you had, so if it were me I'd be stopping at least 3 mths before and not taking any during any chelation. How it interacts with the chelation, I don't think it;s known? that was the only study I could find with a quick look. I wish more was known but it looks like it hasn't been looked at in detail? I have not spent time researching this though.I was only trying to point out exactly what you picked up about perhaps there being some compromise to the chelation from the selenium.
Back in 2003/2204 the selenium "push" was on. Many people on forums especially females seemed to take took too large a dose. Selenium can be toxic.
The "average" female in the US seemed to need no more than 75mcg per day and then have breaks. I need no more than 25mcg maybe once every week or two. Just one 25mcg tablet is enough to give my Mum a lot of the toxicity symptoms!..it depends on where you live and how much selenium is in the soil.
UK is low, Canada is good, Nth Qld has toxic high levels apparently. The change of wheat purchases from Canada to the EU for the UK was enough to get parliament in the UK discussing it in a paper(due to selenium lower in EU, but some countries added it to their soil).
If you add in iodine you should also add selenium (if not already high )in it..they go together..it's pretty confusing and I only know a little.
I never did get around to writing it up. May be something on it here but maybe not. Lar was pro-selenium, It's needed more for men (prostrate etc). Inuit have a trad. diet high in iodine AND selenium.
Studies on that were on here at the time.
Posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 0:00:31
In reply to Re: Mercury(cont)- for blueberry » janejane, posted by tea on January 25, 2010, at 23:44:08
And here Lar says selenium has a half life of only one day
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031023/msgs/275776.html
so I don't know !
If it IS only selenium and not more, like a combo of the omega3's selenium iodine and other unknowns working together, then it looks like selenium can be taken at least up to one week before...beats me. Just wanted to point out there may be some alteration/interference to the chelation if you take selenium.
Posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 0:13:23
In reply to Re: Mercury(cont)- for blueberry » tea, posted by janejane on January 17, 2010, at 6:22:16
http://www.deq.state.id.us/inl_oversight/contamination/fact_sheets/selenium.pdf
says half life is 8hrs, so should be able to stop a few days beforehand. A week would give plenty of leeway.
Posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 2:54:18
In reply to Half life selenium, posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 0:13:23
http://iodine4health.com/research/rooney_2007_thiols_dithiols_mercury.pdf
Posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 4:53:28
In reply to Mercury chelation-selenium, Zn, ALA,garlic(S)..., posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 2:54:18
> http://iodine4health.com/research/rooney_2007_thiols_dithiols_mercury.pdf
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~content=a908486310&db=all
http://www.springerlink.com/content/2cx2uycccaw9behl/
So the conclusions are???
Posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 16:51:24
In reply to Selenium may accumulate mercury in brain, posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 4:53:28
Posted by janejane on January 27, 2010, at 6:26:00
In reply to Mercury chelation-selenium, Zn, ALA,garlic(S)..., posted by tea on January 26, 2010, at 2:54:18
Tea, thanks for sharing all the articles. Much of it is above my head so I'm wondering what you're concluding from all this. It seems to me that there is just a lot that is unknown and some things that are supposed to be helpful might actually be harmful. What to do?
Posted by tea on January 27, 2010, at 14:59:37
In reply to Re: Mercury chelation-selenium, Zn, ALA,garlic(S). » tea, posted by janejane on January 27, 2010, at 6:26:00
> Tea, thanks for sharing all the articles. Much of it is above my head so I'm wondering what you're concluding from all this. It seems to me that there is just a lot that is unknown and some things that are supposed to be helpful might actually be harmful. What to do?
JaneJane, you as always seemed to have grasped the idea. I was just putting out a warning and a suggestion to blueberry as well as to why the chelation may not have worked as effectively as expected. What to do, your guess is probably as good a s mine.
I'm hoping a lot of folk will think about all of this and add their thoughts.My thoughts ONLY...
1.seems to me we maybe should NOT be taking any extra selenium (in supplement form) anywhere near chelation
2. seems to me we don't need to add in extra selenium if we have maybe only one to 3 fillings of amalgam, maybe better to let body excrete it with aids like fibre, perhaps ALA, taurine.. but I'd need to think about this more and would like input from others on thisBTW My selenium blood levels have ALWAYS been above normal..too high, as have my mum's. We both have many amalgam fillings.
I assume, but do not know, this means the selenium in the blood tests is counting that bound with mercury?? And these tests are BEFORE selenium supplementation at all in any supplements.What concerns me is that journalist article Lar said he read about the Intuit in hospital dying when no acces to whale meat.. presumably the argument he was presenting was the lower selenium in the diet led to mercury excess from that stored in organs, That would have to assume the mercury-selenium bond breaks easily, which from my understanding is not true...so either the journalists is using his "poetic" license regarding facts( typical actually and expected), or something else is going on, or the bond does break easily when selenium (or perhaps iodine or omega3 ratio) is lowered...???
tea
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