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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by linkadge on February 18, 2007, at 14:19:04
I am noticing a synergy between caffine and choline in terms of cognition. 500mg of choline with 2-3 cups of coffee per day.
Linkadge
Posted by Joe Bloe on February 24, 2007, at 12:37:41
In reply to Caffine + choline, posted by linkadge on February 18, 2007, at 14:19:04
are you still finding benefit from this combo? Are you taking it with any Rx drugs?I am going to pick up some choline supplements in the near future and will try them with my current regimen - mostly to limit the (possible) anticholinergic properties of Lamictal, which is really helping my depression.
Posted by MoparFan91 on February 24, 2007, at 14:24:48
In reply to Re: Caffine + choline, posted by Joe Bloe on February 24, 2007, at 12:37:41
Be careful with Choline.
I've taken some before, and it has increased my OCD and pitched me into severe depressions. Lecithin, B5 (Pantothenic Acid), and DMAE all did the same thing. It didn't seem to take much for any of them to do it.
I take Lamictal as one of my medications, and it helps a bit with my depression. I wonder if its anti-cholinergic effects is one of its mechanisms for its benefits with depression. I have essentially no side effects from the drug as far as I can tell. I take 400mg per day in two divided doses.
One of the times I had a bad reaction with Choline/Lecithin was in the summer of '05. I had been stable for a while on 200mg of Lamictal and some supplements I was on.
When I implemented Choline/Lecithin into my supplement regimen, I started to get really low and depressed. It got so bad that I had to miss a week of work. I became suicidal. Because of this mess, we ended up making prescription changes:
-First, he added some Seroquel at night. this made things even worse. increased obsessive thoughts 10-fold, was suicidal, and I woke up few hours later. took more of it, and same thing. Didn't sleep more than 7 hours that night.
-Then, Lamictal was increased to 300mg, and we started Luvox and low-dose of Abilify. This helped initially, but then started having separate problems from Abilify.
-Then I got off both of those, and then we added Topamax to replace them.Looking back now, I believe that if I would have never taken those acetylcholine-boosting supplements in the first place, the Lamictal would have never needed to be increased in the first place, and I would have never needed those other prescription changes as well. The Topamax I'm on now does have various benefits, though. I just didn't know that the acetylcholine-boosting agents were the problem at the time like I do now.
B5, a precursor to acetylcholine, messed with me back in September as well. DMAE has at various times, too.
Posted by Joe Bloe on February 24, 2007, at 22:58:40
In reply to Re: Caffine + choline, posted by MoparFan91 on February 24, 2007, at 14:24:48
Wow. Thanks for the information MoparFan91. I suppose the key here is to understand the extent to which Lamictal's antidepressant action is derived from its anticholinergic properties. It sounds like it could be a great extent.
Since I've started Lamictal, I've basically started to smoke, which is obviously terrible (I used to smoke in the past too). I just looked and saw reference to nicotine's cholinergic effects. I wonder if my body has not been craving nicotine for the acetylcholine boost. When I do smoke, I am not feeling any increased depression, but then again, I am only taking 12.5 mgs of Lamictal and its only been 8 days.
Have you tried tobacco or other nicotine product since you started the Lamictal?
I will definitely try the choline supplement with great caution. If it doesn't work, I might have to eventually give up Lamictal because of the cognitive SE's.
Did you have trouble speaking clearly, concentrating etc. when you first started Lamictal?
Posted by circusboy on February 27, 2007, at 21:03:41
In reply to Re: choline + Lamictal, posted by Joe Bloe on February 24, 2007, at 22:58:40
At the risk of a redirect, I'll chime in to say that all of the cognitive effects I was experiencing while on Lamictal have vanished since I (essentially) convinced my pdoc that I should "take a break" from it.
Also, that I too was experiencing cigarette cravings for the first time in nearly a year once I reached the 50mg plateau. I used to smoke 2-4 cigarettes a day to clear my head and help me concentrate... a methylphenidate prescription largely cured me of that habit, though (and gave me a new one? :)).
The only effect that remains is the blurry vision. I don't want to read too much into this -- I'm probably about due for a lens prescription adjustment anyway -- but Lamictal does collect in the eyes:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/lamotrigine_cp.htm (scroll down to "Melanin Binding")Anyway. I do think my pdoc was on to something with the Lamictal, though. I'm trying to substitute with the much gentler Gotu Kola (see the Gotu Kola as MAOI thread on this page). I also find vinpocetine a very powerful mind-calming and clarifying substance; it just has tended to make me feel down after a few days of dosing (5-10 mg). It's cheap and definitely worth trying, though. I'm giving it another go this week.
-cb
Posted by metalblade on December 25, 2007, at 22:25:09
In reply to Re: Caffine + choline, posted by MoparFan91 on February 24, 2007, at 14:24:48
From my experience with Choline, I would say that if used by people with bipolar disorder in small amounts, it could be useful.
I read about some study that was done on the net about it being used at 50mg for treating mania. Well, I thought I would give it a try. I'm bipolar 2 with a social phobia and an anger problem so bad that I can just fly off the wall at any moment it seems. The choline at just 50mg controls my anger. I was previously taking paxil for this, can't stand sleeping 14 hours a day.
When I took it for the first time at 300mg in a capsule, it made me hypomanic. About two days later I was VERY depressed. This stuff could probably be used in the higher doses for mania, but for bipolar 2, it’s a good idea not to go over 50mg a day even if it means breaking the capsules open. The stuff tastes very sour.
This is the end of the thread.
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