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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
I really need something to ease my anger and rage. I'm so irritated all the time! I have tried almost every SSRI: Celexa, Lexapro, Paxil, Seronil, Aurorix, Stablon, Elavil. Alternatives also: SJW, L-Tryptophan, B-vitamins, Multi-vitamins, Rhodiola, Fish Oil, GLA.... just name it. I really don't have a clue what is wrong with me. I'm not bipo, but depressed since childhood, maybe anxiety too, but I don't recognize my feelings very well - because of the anger. I don't know to who or what I'm angry to....
I'm now 43 years old. I really can't take this anymore. Does anybody have this kind of problem? What might be helpfull?
Posted by TenMan on September 23, 2007, at 8:10:07
In reply to Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
Ashwagandha works well for anxiety and tension. It can be sedating for some and that is the case for me so I take it at bedtime.
Posted by toduar on September 23, 2007, at 15:57:36
In reply to Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
you may want to check out Dilantin. years ago I read a book on it by Dreyfus, and subsequently tried it for depresion. it didn't work for me for that, but a very clear side effect was an instant emotional detachment. I think they use it for rage etc. check out this link:
Posted by Netch on September 23, 2007, at 19:37:11
In reply to Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
It sounds like mixed state/agitated depression. You should try lamictal and/or abilify
Posted by circusboy on September 24, 2007, at 15:45:38
In reply to Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
Perhaps you could try some of the herbs with anticonvulsant properties, like gotu kola and skullcap. I *strongly* recommend an alcohol tincture preparation for both of them. Of the 3-4 brands I've tried, I like Gaia Herbs and Eclectic Institute the best.
I tend to use the skullcap more often: it calms me down and makes me feel much less itchy-brained, irritable and scattered. You'll of course have to experiment with the dose. I find that ~10 drops is the most I can take during the day without starting to feel a little woozy, but you might need more.
I'm somewhat surprised that the l-tryptophan didn't help, though I suppose that makes sense in light of your failed SSRI trials. If the anger is so distressing that you want to try drugs again, perhaps you should consult a different psychiatrist. It sounds like s/he might not be on the right track with you.
Please let me know if you'd like any more info about the herbs I've mentioned, and good luck.
-cb
Posted by circusboy on September 24, 2007, at 16:02:06
In reply to Re: Aggressiveness and hostility! » Mary-Lisa, posted by Netch on September 23, 2007, at 19:37:11
> It sounds like mixed state/agitated depression. You should try lamictal and/or abilify
I second that.
Lamictal made me a little stupid -- enough that it interfered with my job -- but I was funny, relaxed and really liked the people around me. I was dealing with some significant irritability that disappeared while I was taking the drug. (Now it seems to be controlled by my supp cocktail, chiefly l-tryptophan + inositol).
Posted by bleauberry on September 24, 2007, at 18:58:59
In reply to Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 23, 2007, at 0:34:01
I agree with all the ideas in the previous posts, except for the lamictal and abilify ones. NO, you do not want to go that route. There is a biological cause for what you are feeling and it will be easily fixed once you stumble onto the right target, which hasn't yet happened. But the target is still there waiting for a bullseye.
Top pics in my opinion would be:
Passion Flower tincture, let it sit under the tongue a couple minutes before swallowing.Skullcap, same procedure.
Ashwaghanda, same procedure.
Valerian root, capsules.
Gaba. 500mg to 1500mg a day. Theory says it won't cross the brain barrier. But for many people it actually works. I tried it a few times when I felt like I was coming unglued and it had me melting in the chair within 30 minutes. Forget theories. Do what works. Definitely worth a try.
Taurine. 500mg to 1500mg a day. Not only is it an inhibitory neurotransmitter, but it also regulates many important things in the body such as the flow of magnesium, calcium and sodium in brain cells. We all know how important magnesium is. Actually, that should be on this list also. Taurine is in foods and the body can produce some, but some people just can't produce enough of it.
Glycine. Another inhibitory neuro. Actually, some people get the best results by mixing gaba, taurine, glycine, and magnesium, and maybe 5htp, all in low doses. There is good synergism with them so you do not need anywhere near therapeutic doses of any of them, just tiny doses of each all at the same time.
Inositol, though probably not by itself. A good add on to something else, but try it by itself first to know what it feels like. High doses are usually needed, like 1 to 15 grams.
5htp. I know you tried l-trytophan. And I know about the SSRIs. They all failed. That makes sense. Maybe something is wrong so that serotonin just simply isn't being produced enough from tryptophan. Levels might be so low that there is not even enough for SSRI to help much. Anyway, conversion of tryptophan to serotonin does get messed up by lots of things, such as genetics or toxic exposure of some kind. You have not yet tried truly increasing serotonin levels until you try 5htp. It goes straight to serotonin, unlike tryptophan which has to jump many hurdles along the way and may in fact make very little serotonin when all is said and done, depending on the person's biology.
Try 12.5mg a couple nights, go up to 25mg, and keep going higher as you tolerate it. If no prob, go higher faster. Give it about a week or two. Don't do too much all at once early on or you may actually feel your symptoms worse. Your symptoms do sound like low serotonin, but if that is true, the receptors are adjusted to low serotonin and will freik out when all of a sudden correct amounts are there. Gently introduce the 5htp to them. SSRIs kept what little serotonin there was, and l-tryptophan might not have done anything at all for serotonin, but you have not tried anything yet that truly and immediately increases serotonin production without any roadblocks. As a sidenote, SSRIs can actually cause your brain to make LESS serotonin than you already had. As the receptors sense the increased serotonin, genes can kick in instructions to back off of serotonin production. Genetics always seem to try to get back to the default setting, even if they are wrong. You can over ride all this stuff with pure 5htp.And if it is a mixed bipolar state (I hate these names that put you in a category because it just aint that simple), lithium orotate 5mg to 15mg per day. Actually, these doses of lithium are healthy and protective to the brain regardless of whether they calm things down or not.
Avoid MSG in foods. Look at the labels. Avoid aspartame. Look at the labels. Silver fillings in your teeth? Get them out pronto with a sense of urgency. Drink tons of purified water. You need an excellent diet of balanced protein, carbs, and fiber at every meal and snack, with emphasis on raw veggies and fruits, cut down bigtime on sugar and caffeine.
There are a lot of ideas here to try. There are more. These are the top ones I could think of on the spur of the moment. In your shoes, I would probably go straight to the 5htp first, and then start at the top of the list and work your way down. I would be very very surprised if you went through this list and did not find something or some combo extremely helpful or completely curative.
If you get a little bit of benefit from one, and a little bit from another, but not enough from either one alone, don't be shy about making your own combination of both. Just take lower doses of each together.
Posted by Mary-Lisa on September 25, 2007, at 0:32:23
In reply to Re: Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by bleauberry on September 24, 2007, at 18:58:59
Thank you for your replies, special thanks for Blueberry! I printed out your comments, because it made perfectly sense. ---> The SSRI:s don’t work because there is no serotonin to “reuptake”!
I have been on aminoacid-analyse and the only thing I was deficient and lack of was L-Tryptophan. The naturopath told me to take L-Tryptophan – which I did, but nothing really happened. So like Blueberry wrote, it’s not easy to make serotonin out of L-Typtophan.
I had removed my 8 amalgam-fillings 4 years ago. After that I did proper chelation by ALA and DMSA (by Andrew Cutler). So, I really have tried number of things to have some happiness in my life...
I have Solgar 5-HTP 100mg at my home, but I haven’t tried it yet. I’m going to open the capsules, split them and start really low dose that I can cope with. I’m going to stick with it for a couple of days without any other supplements to interfere the test.
Sorry my English isn’t perfect – I live in Finland. We have only one brand 5-HTP here (Solgar), which suppose to be quite good quality.
I’m so thankful for your support! I don’t want to be like a monster all the time. This is really ruining my home- and worklife, because I can’t stand anybody around me...
I will send update after few days. Today I’m going to take my first 5-HTP (25mg), wish me luck...
Sincerely,
Mary-Lisa
Posted by bleauberry on September 25, 2007, at 16:34:13
In reply to Re: Aggressiveness and hostility!, posted by Mary-Lisa on September 25, 2007, at 0:32:23
Very cool. I really hope 5htp helps you out. It did me. My doc did a urine test on me. Gaba, norepinephrine, dopamine, PEA, and a few others were all in the middle of the normal range. But serotonin was extremely low. Of course, the tests are not completely accurate and can be misleading, but still, because everything looked so normal except for the dramaticly low serotonin, it really kind of made me take a close look. Since I had not done well with any serotonin medications, I was pretty doubtful.
Anyway, due to mercury, as you know, I am super sensitive to everything. So I started with 12.5 5htp at about 4:00pm for 3 nights. I slept so good it was awesome. Lots of dreaming, but very deep sleep. It perked up my mood during the day for a couple days but then seemed to lose that effect. I eventually went to 50mg and then backed off to 25mg. At first 5htp made me real tired during the day. So I was afraid to try daytime dosing. But I should have, and probably will. Some people find 5htp uplifting during the day, and others sedating.
As you probably know, mercury badly screws up the whole tryptophan conversion thing. It also messes with tyrosine and taurine. So if 5htp isn't everything you are looking for, keep tyrosine and taurine high on your watch list. My doctor says for any mercury patient they should stay on medium to high doses of fish oil, flax oil, and borage oil for years to help repair the damaged cell sheaths from mercury. He says phosphatydl serine and phosphatydyl choline together also do repair jobs.
My first couple days on 5htp did come with a slight increase of nervousness, agitation, teeth clenching. Very mild, quite bearable, but enough to notice. That went away in a couple days. I'm sure it was the receptors freiking out at the new supply of serotonin that they were not accustomed to.
If 25mg feels too much, go down to 12.5mg, then move up slowly.
I'm amazed the Andy Cutler protocol made it all the way to Finland. Wow. I have his book and study it all the time. I have done 2 rounds of 25mg DMSA but am temporarily on hold until my doctor and I go over my most recent lab tests. My fillings came out about 3 months ago.
One more note on 5htp. Almost everybody says to take it with vitamin B6 to convert to serotonin. If you eat decent food, there is plenty of B6 floating around in you to do that. So many foods have vitamins added to them anyway. Too much B6 will just convert that 5htp to serotonin rapdily in your body before it ever gets into the brain. Once it is converted to serotonin, it cannot cross the brain barrier and get in. You want the 5htp to get in before it converts to serotoin. So either do not take B6 supplements, or take your 5htp as far away from your vitamin as possible, like at least 6 hours.
So, contrary to what most people say, do not take extra B vitamins with 5htp unless you know for sure you are highly deficient in them.
This is the end of the thread.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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