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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 1, 2007, at 7:40:18
Is it true that TMG gets converted into SAMe, and if so, what is the conversion rate? I see that there are TMG supplements which claim to be better than SAMe on the basis that (i) TMG gets converted into SAMe, and (ii) TMG has greater molecular stability than SAMe. TMG supplements also seem cheaper.
Jamal
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 2, 2007, at 11:21:11
In reply to TMG - SAMe, posted by Jamal Spelling on September 1, 2007, at 7:40:18
> Is it true that TMG gets converted into SAMe, and if so, what is the conversion rate? I see that there are TMG supplements which claim to be better than SAMe on the basis that (i) TMG gets converted into SAMe, and (ii) TMG has greater molecular stability than SAMe. TMG supplements also seem cheaper.
>
> JamalTMG does not get converted into SAMe. It is the methyl donor in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine, but only via the enzyme betaine-homocysteine methyltransferase (betaine is another name for TMG). This process is usually thought to be secondary to the folate-dependant process, but that one can stall in depressives. That leads to a build-up of homocysteine (the downstream product of SAMe utilization), and a shortage of methionine for recycling back to SAMe. It may be the causative factor for increased incidence of atherosclerotic disease seen in depressives.
The betaine enzyme is inducible, so taking TMG should result in two beneficial outcomes: depletion of homocysteine, and increase in available methionine. Free methionine is thereafter reacted with adenosine in the liver, to form SAMe. I'm making the point explicitly because taking SAMe could exacerbate an already unhealthy situation. If the normal homocysteine recycling process has stalled, leading to a functional deficiency in SAMe, then taking an exogenous SAMe supp would increase the homocysteine levels even further. I suppose you might take a SAMe supp and TMG, but I've never heard any reports of that, so I couldn't vouch for it.
TMG is very much cheaper than SAMe. I think I last paid $8 for a half a pound of TMG. Moreover, some SAMe supps are of an unusual form, as the tosylate salt. Tosylate is a short form for toluene-sulphonate, the salt of toluene-sulphonic acid. I haven't ever found any good toxicological data to form firm conclusions, but many derivatives of toluene have unwelcome health consequences on chronic exposure. I have unanswered questions about tosylates, not explicit concerns of safety.
Lar
Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 2, 2007, at 12:21:50
In reply to Re: TMG - SAMe » Jamal Spelling, posted by Larry Hoover on September 2, 2007, at 11:21:11
Wow, thanks Larry. You're like a medical encyclopedia. As usual, your information is extremely helpful.
Jamal
Posted by circusboy on September 4, 2007, at 15:04:53
In reply to TMG - SAMe, posted by Jamal Spelling on September 1, 2007, at 7:40:18
On Larry's (indirect -- found by searching through old threads) advice, I tried TMG after a very long (4-5 months) and moderately successful trial of SAMe.
My experience: it works as well as SAM-e, but takes much longer. After 500mg/day for a month (it only took about 7 days with SAM-e), I started to feel more motivated, had more mental energy, etc. Unfortunately, I also felt the downsides: blunted sense of humor, diminished creativity, and increased blood pressure.
I find that 400mcg/day of folic acid does nearly as well, but without the downsides (though I still have to quit the folic acid for a couple of days a week to keep my heart rate/blood pressure down). I should also point out that SAM-e helped pull me out of an awful anergic depression. I'm very glad it was available when I needed it, but it turned out not to be the best long-term solution.
If I feel "undermethylated" (in quotes not because I don't think such a condition exists, but because I don't know enough to say for sure it's the cause of my anergia) in the future, however, it's the bottle of TMG I'll reach for, not the blister pack of SAM-e.
-cb
P.S. - I do plan to post about my current regimen soon... hopefully it will be helpful.
Posted by Jamal Spelling on September 4, 2007, at 15:24:19
In reply to Re: TMG - SAMe » Jamal Spelling, posted by circusboy on September 4, 2007, at 15:04:53
Posted by circusboy on September 4, 2007, at 15:28:38
In reply to Re: TMG - SAMe » Jamal Spelling, posted by Larry Hoover on September 2, 2007, at 11:21:11
Larry,
Very glad to see you posting again. I'm not sure we've ever exchanged messages (even when I was posting under "pellmell"), but the stuff you've contributed in old threads has been immensely helpful to me. I'm doubly glad to see you willing to err... review... stuff like this that you've gone over a bunch of times in the past. The babble archives can be hard to navigate, and new post-ers need fresh advice!
So now that I've buttered you up, maybe you can answer my question. Is there any sort of physiological reason that you're aware of why chronic dosing of folic acid, SAM-e, or TMG increases my blood pressure? The SAM-e is by far the worst of the three, but the other two do it as well.
I only have a clue about why SAM-e might do this -- maybe something to do with epinephrine -- but I'm clueless about the other two.
I suppose it's possible my creaky powers of empiricism have failed me, and that it's something unrelated causing the increased blood pressure... but at least in the case of SAM-e I don't think so.
-cb
This is the end of the thread.
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