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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 25. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
I have kept the Fish Oil (EPA) at arms length because every time I take it I get a type of rebound Anxiety the next morning. I took it yesterday and felt pretty good but didn't sleep well last night and this morning I felt very anxious/nervous and like crying. I believe I am very sensitive to Serotonin, that's the only thing I can figure out.
Posted by teejay on March 5, 2007, at 19:00:39
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
Yep, fish oil makes me anxious as hell too.
Have you tried something resembling the regimen I posted above?
I feel lots less anxious than I did. Not a cure all, but certainly seems so far to have made a difference.
TJ
Posted by johnnyj on March 6, 2007, at 15:40:54
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
Gave me anxiety too after about a week. I don't touch it anymore.
Posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 10:34:55
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
Thanks Teelady, I'll check for your regimen. I usually have a low grade anxiety. I'm still suffering three days after the Fish Oil. Powerful whatever it did to me. I had a similar, but not as bad rebound anxiety, with Mucuna Pruriens.
I still which I could know why Fish Oil does this as it seems to be a piece of my puzzle.
Posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 10:53:21
In reply to Re: Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying? » sregan, posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 10:34:55
>I had a similar, but not as bad rebound anxiety, with Mucuna Pruriens.
I may have just found a possible solution. I searched the Dr-Bob archives and found a suggestion that Fish Oil increases dopamine. The Mucuna Pruriens is 15% L-Dopa.
When I've taken both I had a feeling of well being immediately after taking and for the next 4-6 hours. Both have made me crash the next day with high anxiety and poor sleep. Am I deficient? Why would I have this rebound. Would I do better to stay on it. I'm tempted to try an weeklong test but if it doesn't work I'll have the worst week in a long time.
Posted by sregan on March 7, 2007, at 12:22:40
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
Interesting text from a site selling supplements. Makes sense. I have benefited from GABA enhancing drugs and supplements this far.
FROM:
http://www.adhd-becalmd.com/dopamine.php?id=8664"Any type of Stress causes the OPIOID levels to diminish. This creates a sense of urgency in an individual. A person also becomes irritable, easily angered, easily losing their temper. Many people find relief from these feelings from an artificial opioid that is released by Alcohol or other drugs.
"Low OPIOID levels automatically causes an increase in DOPAMINE release. This causes a feeling of alertness and anxiety. Continued Dopamine release causes emotional fatigue.
"This increase in dopamine levels and a decrease in GABA levels produces a combination of alertness and anxiety. The so called adrenaline rush is in large part the feeling of exhilaration caused by the dopamine release.
"When Dopamine is released, it is exactly the same chemical response as that following a small cocaine use. (The greatest natural Dopamine release happens at the moment of sexual climax.)
"The lowering of the opioids causes an increase in dopamine levels and a decrease in GABA levels. This produces a combination of alertness and anxiety. [The so called adrenaline rush is in large part the feeling of exhilaration caused by the dopamine release.
"Continual extra dopamine release causes emotional fatigue which can become debilitating. It can also lead to anhedonia, in which case, he or she can no longer enjoy beauty, music, or even love, in the extreme case.
"Continuous anxiety from GABA reduction can lead to depression and feelings of inadequacy.
"When this occurs, feelings of anxiety, insecurity and unexplained panic are felt. The most obvious feeling is deep Depression. "
Posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 10:44:11
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
I've got to start checking the archives before I post.
Linkadge the below post is from May 2005 do you remember what "AP's" were that you mention below?
Thanks,
ShawnIn this message: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050414/msgs/495119.html
Linkadge says:
"Fish oil can significanltly increase dopamine levels. Some people's anxiety is dopamine sensitive."Fish oil never increased my physical anxiety, but had the capacity to increase my mental anxiety when taken in large doses. I think this is an indication of dopaminergic involvement.
"AP's eliminated the anxiety produced by too much fish oil, but beta blockers (which helped my physical anxiety) never changed fish oil's effect.
"Note. Low doses of fish oil undoubtedly decreased my anxiety. INcreased anxiety only happened at 2+ grams of DHA.
"Also note, the DHA rich oils seemed to produce more anxiety, and the EPA oils produced little."
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 8, 2007, at 11:49:45
In reply to Got some answers. Question for Linkadge, posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 10:44:11
AP = antipsychotics if I have got my babble-speak correct.
So AT AP are atypical antipsychotics.
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 12:20:30
In reply to Re: Got some answers. Question for Linkadge, posted by Meri-Tuuli on March 8, 2007, at 11:49:45
> AP = antipsychotics if I have got my babble-speak correct.
>
> So AT AP are atypical antipsychotics.
Meri,Thank you for the info. Clozapine is an ATAP that I'm familiar with.
I've been reading about Fish Oil and found a great site fattyacidtrip.com.
Most of the texts say that the EPA is what is helping with depression. Linkadge mentioned that he thought the DHA might have been causing anxiety. I was helped by my EPA/DHA fish oil but also got bad anxiety.
I'm hopeful that if I get pure EPA oil that might give me the benefit without the anxiety.
Posted by linkadge on March 9, 2007, at 7:31:19
In reply to Question for Linkadge, EPA but not DHA, posted by sregan on March 8, 2007, at 12:20:30
I would certainly play around with different mixtures. I purchased both pure EPA and pure DHA to experiement.
Different people have different reactions to the two.
I wouldn't say can DHA, since it has been a godsent for concentration issues.
Linkadge
Posted by sregan on March 9, 2007, at 9:59:06
In reply to Re: Question for Linkadge, EPA but not DHA, posted by linkadge on March 9, 2007, at 7:31:19
> I would certainly play around with different mixtures. I purchased both pure EPA and pure DHA to experiement.
>
> Different people have different reactions to the two.
>
> I wouldn't say can DHA, since it has been a godsent for concentration issues.Link,
Thanks for the reply. I just ordered some pure EPA from IHerb.com. What I've been taking is 180 mg EPA and 120 DHA. I don't understand the delayed negative effect. I took at breakfast, felt good all day but poor sleep and very anxious the next AM. Mag/Cal seems to help take the edge off my mornings. The rest of the day isn't bad.
Posted by linkadge on March 9, 2007, at 13:43:26
In reply to Re: Question for Linkadge, EPA but not DHA » linkadge, posted by sregan on March 9, 2007, at 9:59:06
It can take a while to alter the brain's lipid ballance.
Linkadge
Posted by sregan on March 14, 2007, at 20:41:01
In reply to Re: Question for Linkadge, EPA but not DHA, posted by linkadge on March 9, 2007, at 13:43:26
I bought some EPA fish oil that ended up being 500 mg EPA and 90 DHA...Dooohhhh! I should have checked the ingredients before I purchased. Anyway I started taking my regular EPA180/DHA120 until my EPA500/DHA90 arrived. I kept taking it and didn't stop. I immediately felt better for the next few days although at first I felt a little strange/loopy. I could tell some brain chemistry was adjusting. Anyway I've relapsed again but I don't thing it's the fault of the oil. It's been a week and a half.
Posted by cindy lou on March 16, 2007, at 11:21:16
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
Hello,
I just started posting on this site, so forgive me for any repetitious questions. I was wondering if flax seed oil is the same as the fish oils? OR, if there are any other DHA/EPA products other than fish oils/flax seed oil. I seem to get nauseous on the fish oil, and allergic reaction to the flax seed.Also, any ideas for alternative ADD treatment?
I have depression, anxiety, and ADD, and it seems as if treatment for one affects the others ...
I am currently taking Klonapin and Prozac. Was taking Adderall but I am recovering from surgery so I'm not concerned with focus right now. I feel very tired and foggy headed (and I felt that way BEFORE surgery so I can't blame the anesthesia too much!).
The Adderall gave me energy, but also made me stressed and anxious. It is like a viscious circle.
Thanks for your help!
cindy
Posted by MM on March 16, 2007, at 19:16:35
In reply to EPA Update, posted by sregan on March 14, 2007, at 20:41:01
Source Naturals high EPA (Arctic Pure?) was the only fish oil I can remember being able to tolerate without crazy crying jags/anxiety (so that's why I'm ordering more as I just tried another brand with a regular ratio and it wasn't good). It's the only high EPA brand I tried though so I'm sure others work well too, but the high EPA seemed to be calming/stabilizing.
Posted by Joe Bloe on March 17, 2007, at 17:27:06
In reply to Re: EPA Update, posted by MM on March 16, 2007, at 19:16:35
I too switched to a high EPA to DHA ratio fish oil and I take it with food in the afternoon after taking a omega 3-6-9 blend in the morning. It's 500 something EPA and 100 something DHA, Vitamin Shoppe brand. I picked it up in store but I think they do mail order too.
Definitely feels to be an improvement as described: calming/stabilizing.
Posted by sregan on March 18, 2007, at 18:18:33
In reply to EPA Update, posted by sregan on March 14, 2007, at 20:41:01
I'm off the oil, I felt initially better but was sleeping worse and after a week I was a wreck. Hard to understand why something that is supposed to be so good for you is causing me grief.
Posted by Joe Bloe on March 18, 2007, at 20:50:04
In reply to EPA Update, had to stop, posted by sregan on March 18, 2007, at 18:18:33
> I'm off the oil, I felt initially better but was sleeping worse and after a week I was a wreck. Hard to understand why something that is supposed to be so good for you is causing me grief.
I've heard this before from other people on this site, anyone have an idea why?
Posted by Joe Bloe on March 18, 2007, at 20:59:17
In reply to Re: EPA Update, had to stop, posted by Joe Bloe on March 18, 2007, at 20:50:04
Posted by sregan on March 18, 2007, at 21:04:04
In reply to Re: EPA Update, had to stop, posted by Joe Bloe on March 18, 2007, at 20:50:04
>Hard to understand why something that is supposed to be so good for you is causing me grief.
>
> I've heard this before from other people on this site, anyone have an idea why?I was surprised to find that EPA boosted dopamine and serotonin:
"Over the last decade, neuroscientists have been examining the consequences of omega-3 deficiencies in the central nervous system. Alterations in serotonin and dopamine levels, as well as the functioning of these two important neurotransmitters is evident in an omega-3 deficiency."
Posted by sregan on March 19, 2007, at 12:05:17
In reply to Fish Oil Reaction - Anxious, crying?, posted by sregan on March 5, 2007, at 11:09:53
I would like to add while I was on the Fish Oil my appetite wasn't so ravenous. I was much less hungry when meal time came around. I assume it did some type of blood sugar regulation?
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 21, 2007, at 13:46:23
In reply to Re: EPA Update, had to stop » Joe Bloe, posted by sregan on March 18, 2007, at 21:04:04
> >Hard to understand why something that is supposed to be so good for you is causing me grief.
> >
> > I've heard this before from other people on this site, anyone have an idea why?
>
> I was surprised to find that EPA boosted dopamine and serotonin:
>
> "Over the last decade, neuroscientists have been examining the consequences of omega-3 deficiencies in the central nervous system. Alterations in serotonin and dopamine levels, as well as the functioning of these two important neurotransmitters is evident in an omega-3 deficiency."
>
> From: http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:aPAxRhlKkgcJ:pages.prodigy.net/unohu/efa_d.htm+epa+dopamine&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=20&gl=usIt's also possible that omega-3 deficiency during development can cause permanent changes in neurobiological performance. Is the current epidemic of depression the result of the industrialization of the food supply decades ago?
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2006 Oct-Nov;75(4-5):259-69. Epub 2006 Sep 11.
Omega-3 fatty acids and monoamine neurotransmission.
Chalon S.
Inserm U619, Tours, France. sylvie.chalon@univ-tours.frWe proposed several years ago that the behavioral effects of n-3 PUFA deficiency observed in animal models might be mediated through the dopaminergic and serotonergic systems that are very involved in the modulation of attention, motivation and emotion. We evaluated this hypothesis in an extended series of experiments on rats chronically diet-deficient in alpha-linolenic acid, the precursor of long-chain n-3 PUFA, in which we studied several parameters of these neurotransmission systems. The present paper synthesizes the main data we obtained on interactions between n-3 PUFA status and neurotransmission in animal models. We demonstrated that several parameters of neurotransmission were affected, such as the vesicular pool of dopamine and serotonin, thus inducing several regulatory processes such as modification of cerebral receptors in specific brain areas. We also demonstrated that (i) a reversal diet with adequate n-6 and n-3 PUFA given during the lactating period to rats originating from alpha-linolenic acid-deficient dams was able to restore both the fatty acid composition of brain membranes and several parameters of the dopaminergic and serotonergic neurotransmission, and (ii) when given from weaning, this reversal diet allowed partial recovery of biochemical parameters, but no recovery of neurochemical factors. The occurrence of profound n-3 PUFA deficiency during the lactating period could therefore be an environmental insult leading to irreversible damage to specific brain functions. Strong evidence is now showing that a profound n-3 PUFA experimental deficiency is able to alter several neurotransmission systems, at least the dopaminergic and serotonergic. Whether these experimental findings can be transposed to human pathophysiology must be taken cautiously, but reinforces the hypothesis that strong links exist between the PUFA status, aspects of brain function such as neurotransmission processes and behavior.
Posted by cindy lou on April 6, 2007, at 20:15:10
In reply to Re: EPA Update, posted by MM on March 16, 2007, at 19:16:35
Hi again,
I noticed your post here, and since we seem to be similar in our sensitivities, I wanted to see if you are still using the EPA? Does it still have a calming/stabilizing affect for you?I just saw an ad for an EPA formula by Vita Logic. Don't know anything about it, but I am considering giving it a try.
Fish oil in the past has made me very nauseated, but I have never tried just the EPA.
Thanks ...
cindy> Source Naturals high EPA (Arctic Pure?) was the only fish oil I can remember being able to tolerate without crazy crying jags/anxiety (so that's why I'm ordering more as I just tried another brand with a regular ratio and it wasn't good). It's the only high EPA brand I tried though so I'm sure others work well too, but the high EPA seemed to be calming/stabilizing.
Posted by MM on April 20, 2007, at 1:52:03
In reply to Re: EPA Update » MM, posted by cindy lou on April 6, 2007, at 20:15:10
Hi cindy lou (sorry I just saw this message),
I ordered the high EPA and used it a few times....It's not as calming as I remember but I also took some other supplements and I got destabilized from something...whether that was the high EPA or not, I can't say. I'm still taking it but I'm trying a kind of tapering up approach. I'm only taking it once a week now and then I'm going to try twice a week, etc. It's weird because I think it helps but maybe it is also destabilizing. Maybe it's because of the small amount of DHA in it. I'm really not sure. Sorry I don't have a clear answer but I'll keep experimenting and post back. I do notice that it is not as anxiety provoking as the regular EPA/DHA ratio fish oils though. Sorry I can't be of much help.
-Meg
Posted by MM on May 6, 2007, at 23:35:42
In reply to Re: EPA Update » cindy lou, posted by MM on April 20, 2007, at 1:52:03
Well I've been trying to continue taking the high EPA and I keep getting this weird reaction. I don't know why I didn't get it before. I also have some 3-6-9 stuff I'm trying...I don't seem to get quite as irritable but I still get sort of wound up on it. This reaction seems so "counterintuitive" to what should happen...I'm really curious about why so many people are getting it.
This is the end of the thread.
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