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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by teejay on May 1, 2007, at 21:17:57
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 1, 2007, at 21:53:14
In reply to More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by teejay on May 1, 2007, at 21:17:57
Hi,
I firmly believe that the schizophrenia of someone I hold very dear began when he smoked pot on a semi-regular basis. Of course, some other stressor in the future might have triggered it had he not smoked pot, but we'll never know now.
Liz
P.S. I found it a little disturbing that they would include test subjects whi had already had a psychotic experience!
Posted by Declan on May 2, 2007, at 0:21:47
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by LizinManhattan on May 1, 2007, at 21:53:14
Yeah Hi
Do youse think that the kinds of insights/innapropriate thoughts you have on cannbis are real or not?
Are they insights? Or are they innapropriate?
I never know what's appropriate.My feeling is they are insights, but my head tells me they are pretty extreme.
Not that anyone is going to resolve this one.
Posted by linkadge on May 2, 2007, at 10:41:33
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by Declan on May 2, 2007, at 0:21:47
Its all "hand in glove" research. If somebody wants to a particular finding they can find it.
I don't believe marajuanna causes schizohprenia. It can induce psychotic episodes, but thats different from permanant psychosis.
A quote from the article.
"A separate study has shown that one of these ingredients - cannabidiol (CBD) - has the potential to dampen down psychotic symptoms, and could form the basis of new treatments."
Other views theorize that those with schizophrenia develop a particualry special bond with marajuanna due to its propensity to combat certain negative (and positive symtpoms). So, to the untrained eye, it appears marajuanna caused psychosis. Just as one time nicotine was probably implicated in the developement of psychosis.
I know just as many people who have probably staved off the need for psychiatric drugs (ie tranquilizer, antidepressants, sleeping pills, and mood stabilizers) throught the judicious use of marajuanna.
Low doses of marajuanna kept me mentally well for 6 months. When I went to school and had to stop, thats when I got messed up on prescription drugs.
There is probably just as much evidence that tryclic antidepressants can cause psychosis, or bipolar disorder, for that matter.
Linkadge
Posted by LizinManhattan on May 3, 2007, at 10:52:02
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by linkadge on May 2, 2007, at 10:41:33
Hi Linkadge,
You make a lot of good points. Maybe the pot my friend was smoking was "bad pot?" He got it from pretty much the same source each time.
Liz> Its all "hand in glove" research. If somebody wants to a particular finding they can find it.
>
> I don't believe marajuanna causes schizohprenia. It can induce psychotic episodes, but thats different from permanant psychosis.
>
> A quote from the article.
>
> "A separate study has shown that one of these ingredients - cannabidiol (CBD) - has the potential to dampen down psychotic symptoms, and could form the basis of new treatments."
>
> Other views theorize that those with schizophrenia develop a particualry special bond with marajuanna due to its propensity to combat certain negative (and positive symtpoms). So, to the untrained eye, it appears marajuanna caused psychosis. Just as one time nicotine was probably implicated in the developement of psychosis.
>
> I know just as many people who have probably staved off the need for psychiatric drugs (ie tranquilizer, antidepressants, sleeping pills, and mood stabilizers) throught the judicious use of marajuanna.
>
> Low doses of marajuanna kept me mentally well for 6 months. When I went to school and had to stop, thats when I got messed up on prescription drugs.
>
> There is probably just as much evidence that tryclic antidepressants can cause psychosis, or bipolar disorder, for that matter.
>
> Linkadge
>
>
Posted by Vale on May 3, 2007, at 16:36:01
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis..... » linkadge, posted by LizinManhattan on May 3, 2007, at 10:52:02
It is now a widely held belief amongst the medical community that the use of cannabis can induce pychosis ( essentially the "schizophrenia"
delusional type) in succeptable individuals. Scientists rely on statistics, and this is what the statistics are indicating. It's irrelevant if individuals affected by pychosis find the subsequent use of cannabis somehow therapeutic.
Just as there now appears to be a higher incidence of schz. in cannabis users, it has also been known since R.D. Laing, wrote "The Divided Self" ( way back in the late sixties) that there is substantially less incidence of schz. in herion/opiate users. The medical community has of course been less enthusiastic about promoting Herion use as a negative risk factor in schz.
Personally I rate cannabis as an extremely dangerous drug for those with a propensity to suffer from any disorder or even personality trait of the paranoid- delusional type. Even if it didn't precipitate full blown poor prognosis schz. the tragedy of an otherwise healthy individual being subjected to the anguish of a protracted pychosis with all the subsequent risks of the currently prescribed anti-pyschotics, just seems too big a price to pay.
Posted by linkadge on May 3, 2007, at 18:04:03
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by Vale on May 3, 2007, at 16:36:01
>Scientists rely on statistics, and this is what >the statistics are indicating. It's irrelevant >if individuals affected by pychosis find the >subsequent use of cannabis somehow therapeutic.
But thats the thing. I don't think this is what the statistics are indicating. There are a *lot* of studies on the topic. Many (I don't know what portion) show absolutely no association between marajuanna use and onset time of psychiatric illness.
>Just as there now appears to be a higher >incidence of schz. in cannabis users,
This doesn't mean anything. There is a higher incidence of shizophrenics within the tobacco smoking population, although tobacco does not cause shizohprenia.
>it has
>also been known since R.D. Laing, wrote "The >Divided Self" ( way back in the late sixties) >that there is substantially less incidence of >schz. in herion/opiate users.This again doesn't conclude anything. I would think that shizohprenics are drawn to marajuanna for the same reason they are drawn to tobacco, and that is an improvement of negative symptoms via increased release of dopamine in the prefrontal cortex. Scizohprenics are also drawn to caffiene for the same reason. That is the one thing that caffine, nicotine, and marajuanna hve in common. Opaites do not have any significant effect in this regard. Some researchers even want to call schizophrenia a dopamine deficiancy disorder, since it is beleived that the relative absense of dopamine in the frontal cortex, is what is failing to provide restraint of overactive limbic circury.
>Personally I rate cannabis as an extremely >dangerous drug for those with a propensity to >suffer from any disorder or even personality >trait of the paranoid- delusional type. Even if >it didn't precipitate full blown poor prognosis >schz. the tragedy of an otherwise healthy >individual being subjected to the anguish of a >protracted pychosis with all the subsequentThe proportion of people who smoke marajuanna *without* such negative consequences is very high. Comparitively, there is a risk of inducing psychosis with ritalin, althougth there is no movement set in motion to avoid ritalin on these grounds.
>risks of the currently prescribed anti->pyschotics, just seems too big a price to pay.
Well, for me, the use of sleeping pills, antidepressants, and antianxiety agents was a too high price to pay. Low dose marajuanna did the same, with much less collateral damamge on my schoolwork, cognition, and social interaction.
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on May 3, 2007, at 22:22:49
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by Vale on May 3, 2007, at 16:36:01
>Personally I rate cannabis as an extremely dangerous drug for those with a propensity to suffer from any disorder or even personality trait of the paranoid- delusional type.
I think you are right.
There are people who have managed some seriously weird mental states with opiates.
Posted by linkadge on May 4, 2007, at 15:06:30
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis..... » Vale, posted by Declan on May 3, 2007, at 22:22:49
>I think you are right.
>There are people who have managed some seriously >weird mental states with opiates.What do you mean. Marajuanna isn't an opiate (?)
Linkadge
Posted by Vale on May 4, 2007, at 17:43:35
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by linkadge on May 3, 2007, at 18:04:03
Good for you Linkadge, if cannabis helps you out with any issues you might be dealing with. There are plenty of areas where its use can be justified, ( for those that can tolerate it) Multiple Sclerosis, Neuropathic pain, anti-emetics in conjunction with chemotherapy, and other uses.
I remain steadfast however that it's use be discouraged amongst the general population, on the grounds that others and myself on this thread and elsewhere,have already outlined.
Peace
Vale
Posted by Declan on May 5, 2007, at 2:46:52
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis..... » Declan, posted by linkadge on May 4, 2007, at 15:06:30
I was responding to this.
>Just as there now appears to be a higher incidence of schz. in cannabis users, it has also been known since R.D. Laing, wrote "The Divided Self" ( way back in the late sixties) that there is substantially less incidence of schz. in herion/opiate users.
Posted by linkadge on May 5, 2007, at 10:21:18
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis..... » linkadge, posted by Declan on May 5, 2007, at 2:46:52
It is my conention that the proposed link between marajuanna and shizophrenia relies almost entirely on associative evidence (a larger percentage of the shizophrenic population smokes marajuanna than does the general non shizophrenic population).
This is not proof IMHO, it is merely a correlation.
Some people's idea of "proof" is "I have a good friend who smokes all the time, and yeah he's sure got some strange ideas".
Thats not a proof. Correlation does not imply causation.
If you state a correlation long enough, just about anyone can think they see such a connection.
There have been a lot of assumptions that were held as fact for a "long time" untill more recent investigation proved otherwise. Marajuanna was purported to kill brain cells (probably due to the fact that it can impair memory). On the contrary, marajuanna promotes hippocampal neurogenesis like other cannabanoid receptor agonists.
The "marajuanna kills brain cells" was mainly asserted for two reasons. 1) it is believable since marajuanna impairs memory 2) it works as propeganda to keep people from smoking it.
It is unethical to perform the type of research that would be needed to determine the true propensity for marajuanna to cause psychosis. You cannot take healthy vaulnteers and assign them either placebo or marjauuanna for a few years and see which ones become psychotic.
This is the only type of reasearch that would conclude anything.
On the flipside, there is some evidence that levels of the endocannabanoid anandamaide are very low in the brains of schizophrenics. This could very easily be a result of problems with the ballance of fatty acids in the brain. A DHA deficiancy, for instance, will cause an anandamide deficiancy. Some very recent research has proposed that shizophrenics may also be trying to compensate for low levels of anandamide by using cannabis.
In some of the above posts we were outlining the links between fatty acid imballances and mental illness. We already know that marjauanna can prevent some of the myelin loss and inflamation that results in futher deterioration in M.S. We also know that shizohprenics brains may have significant abnormalities in myelenation. Perhaps marjaunna provides a similar protection of myelin in the brain of shizophrenics as it does in those with MS
It is the same thing with nicotine. Nicotine cuts brain inflammation and is neuroprotective in a number of models of neurodegeneration. It is possable that the nicotine consuming shizohprenic is actually halting certain aspects of their disease.
Linkadge
Posted by Edwin Ransom on May 10, 2007, at 9:56:50
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by linkadge on May 5, 2007, at 10:21:18
The simplest explanation for illicit drug use in any mentally ill population: illicit drugs feel good and they're relaxing, mentally ill people feel bad so they use illicit drugs.Even the alleged theraputic effects of narcotics could easily be explained in terms of the benefits of pleasure and relaxation and NOT in terms of a direct process by which narcotics stave off neurodegeneration.
Posted by Sebastian on May 11, 2007, at 17:20:48
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by Edwin Ransom on May 10, 2007, at 9:56:50
I smoked pot long before I went psychotic. I went psychotic shortly after I got PTSD and quit the pot. Then I smoked once and in the next 2 months went very psychotic. I don't remember smoking any during that 2 months but family said I did, or atleast found some.
I remember when I smoked at first, that I reached a point of no return. that I would not be able to stop or something. My thoughts were very crazy and normal at these times. Normal because I was doing what everyone else was doing. Crazy, because I didn't know a real sense of reality, I was using a lot of LSD too. So. But I almost asociated pot with a sense of normal, down to earth.
Link is right when I stoped the pot, my use of meds went way up. And I feel as if they are placibo.
Posted by linkadge on June 4, 2007, at 10:25:02
In reply to Re: More evidence of the dangers of cannabis....., posted by Sebastian on May 11, 2007, at 17:20:48
Just to add. The propensity for marajuanna to cause psychosis may be directly dependant on the ratio of certain constituents.
Apparently cannabidol in cannabis acts as an antipsychotic and anxyolytic. It is capable of counteracting the effects of THC. Cannabis with very high yeilds of cannabidol may even be acting as an antipsychotic.
Cannabidol is under research as an antipsychotic.
A shizophrenic may well be treating their psychosis with cannabis of high cannabidol yeild.
Perhaps the psychosis started when they swiched to some chemically engineered version of low cannabidol/THC ratio.
Blanket dogmatic statements like this are more indicitive of propeganda than they are of a ballanced and comprehensive review of the data on cannabis
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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