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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by yesac on December 12, 2006, at 14:26:31
I saw this article about caffeine in National Geographic.... I haven't read the article yet, but I looked it over. For the most part, I've always tried to keep my caffeine intake at low to moderate doses, especially after about 4pm because it messes with my sleep. But the article got me thinking about maybe using medium to high doses of caffeine to help with psychiatric problems.
I probably wouldn't be thinking about this if prescription stimulants had helped me, but they haven't. They screw me up emotionally and don't seem to help with attention.
Does anyone drink or take caffeine pills (Vivarin, etc) for psychiatric problems such as ADD or depression? I'm really thinking of giving it a try. I'm pretty desperate.
Posted by dessbee on December 12, 2006, at 15:05:12
In reply to Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by yesac on December 12, 2006, at 14:26:31
Would not recommend it. Caffeine is addictive so it will require higher and higher doses.
It also increases stress level (cortisol levels) which is a bad thing for your brain.Try fish oil indstead.
Posted by mixed_state on December 12, 2006, at 21:12:01
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy » yesac, posted by dessbee on December 12, 2006, at 15:05:12
I drink about 150-250 mgs of caffeine, staggered across the day in 3-4 doses (in teas or espresso). I recommend remaining below 300mgs. For me, it the most addictive substance I've tried. I cannot go without it. It definitely positively helps. But beware, too much consumption can lead to nervousness, and anxiety (I even get the paradoxical effect of fatique if I take caffeine after consuming too much for a few months). From my experience, the keys are to limit intake and stagger intake across the day. I also find drip-coffee to be less effective than black tea or espresso over the long term.
Posted by JLx on December 15, 2006, at 12:43:50
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by mixed_state on December 12, 2006, at 21:12:01
>(I even get the paradoxical effect of fatique if I take caffeine after consuming too much for a few months).
"Caffeine raises adrenaline levels and heavy coffee consumption can lead to a state of adrenal gland exhaustion, where the adrenal glands are no longer able to adequately respond to stress by releasing enough adrenaline." http://www.diagnose-me.com/treat/T136795.html (A naturopathic website)
JL
Posted by mixed_state on December 15, 2006, at 13:11:33
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by JLx on December 15, 2006, at 12:43:50
Definitely, everything in moderation:"Caffeine. Studies have found an association between moderate consumption of caffeinated beverages and a lower incidence of suicide, indicating that coffee or tea might help reduce depression. One study supported the findings for a lower risk for suicide with moderate coffee intake but reported a higher risk for suicide with high coffee consumption. In such cases, coffee may not be the cause of the higher risk; women who drink such large amounts of coffee may be self medicating their depression. Heavy coffee use may also coincide with a higher risk for abuse of other substances, such as alcohol or cigarettes, which may increase the risk for suicide."
http://adam.about.com/reports/000008_9.htm
Posted by dessbee on December 15, 2006, at 15:13:26
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by mixed_state on December 15, 2006, at 13:11:33
Coffee may be good, but that does not mean caffeine is.
Studies have shown that decaf coffee protects even more against diabetes compared to regular coffee. It really shows how caffeine actually lowers the protective effect of coffee.
Posted by mixed_state on December 16, 2006, at 21:16:37
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy » mixed_state, posted by dessbee on December 15, 2006, at 15:13:26
> Coffee may be good, but that does not mean caffeine is.
Okay, but the information in my prior posting is a review of a test on caffeinated beverages, with regular coffee as the caffeinated beverage used in the study. The findings of the study, based on caffeinated coffee, make no mention of decaf.
> Studies have shown that decaf coffee protects even more against diabetes compared to regular coffee. It really shows how caffeine actually lowers the protective effect of coffee.
Studies also show that decaf coffee, and not regular coffee, raises LDL levels.
http://www.americanheart.org/presenter.jhtml?identifier=3035336
Posted by dreamboat_annie on December 16, 2006, at 23:42:11
In reply to Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by yesac on December 12, 2006, at 14:26:31
Although I haven't tried it yet, I had done a bit of reading on Yerba Mate, which provides the same or better stimulant effects as coffee/caffeine without the jitters, anxiety and nervousness. I bought some Yerba Mate tea and capsules and a natural food place. I will try it one of these days.
> I saw this article about caffeine in National Geographic.... I haven't read the article yet, but I looked it over. For the most part, I've always tried to keep my caffeine intake at low to moderate doses, especially after about 4pm because it messes with my sleep. But the article got me thinking about maybe using medium to high doses of caffeine to help with psychiatric problems.
>
> I probably wouldn't be thinking about this if prescription stimulants had helped me, but they haven't. They screw me up emotionally and don't seem to help with attention.
>
> Does anyone drink or take caffeine pills (Vivarin, etc) for psychiatric problems such as ADD or depression? I'm really thinking of giving it a try. I'm pretty desperate.
Posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 14:53:37
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy, posted by mixed_state on December 16, 2006, at 21:16:37
I think the study you are referring to compared regular coffee from Aribica bean with caffeine-free coffee made from Robusta, a type of bean with a higher fat content.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8328
Decaf coffee can be made from any coffee bean washed with the Liquid Carbon Dioxide method.
Posted by linkadge on December 19, 2006, at 9:47:28
In reply to Re: Caffeine for ADD, depression, low energy » mixed_state, posted by dessbee on December 18, 2006, at 14:53:37
I am an advocate of coffee *and* caffiene.
For starters, it is caffiene *not* coffee which protects against parkinsons. Caffiene is hightly neuroprotective in models of toxin induced dopaminergic neurodestruction, wherase other compounds are not.
Caffiene is also the substance which brightens mood. I read a study that each dose of caffiene molecule was responsable for an extension of growth cones, and posessed other neurotrophic capabilities.
In addition, studies have shown that you do not grow completely tollerant to caffiene. Ie, even long term users show increased activity of the frontal cortex, an area often hypometabolic in depression.
This would lead me to believe that caffiene plays an integral role in the antisuicide effect.There are ways to prevent caffiene induced adrenal exhaustion.
The addictivness of caffiene varies from person to person. It does not light up the exact same parts of the brain as drugs like nicotine, heroin, cocain etc. Animals to *not* self inject caffine like they do heroin, cocaine, meth, etc.
Coffee can really calm some people down too. If I have a cup of coffee, I take a deep breath out. I'd tend to think that it doesn't increase cortisol in those who find it relaxing.
All in all, I think its a safe substance that has been used for a very long time.
Linkadge
Posted by Mistermindmasta on December 20, 2006, at 11:21:17
In reply to Re: A difft view, posted by linkadge on December 19, 2006, at 9:47:28
> Coffee can really calm some people down too. If I have a cup of coffee, I take a deep breath out. I'd tend to think that it doesn't increase cortisol in those who find it relaxing.
I think the relaxing effect is directly due to increased dopamine in the nucleus accumbens and the striatal region of the brain. It can still simultaneously and, as far as the studies I've read, constistantly raise cortisol levels dose dependently.
Cortisol does not necessarily need to lead to immediate feelings of depression and stress... I believe it's the secondary effects of cortisol such as lower DHEA, increased serotonin reuptake, lowered DA output that lead to the negative connotations associated with caffeine.
Thus, too much caffeine can provide more downsides than benefits as a result of, among other things, excessively raised cortisol levels. However, lower doses can indeed provide benefits and be relaxing.
Posted by linkadge on December 20, 2006, at 20:41:53
In reply to Re: A difft view, posted by Mistermindmasta on December 20, 2006, at 11:21:17
Interesting that caffiene a stimulant increases cortsiol while nicotine another stimulant decreases cortisol.
The studies that say cortisol increases serotonin uptake, they all just seem a little to convienent. I mean there is no evidence that increased serotonin uptake is related to depression. I guess it just seems to complete the depression / SSRI picture.
I think it is also a sterotype that all depressed people hive high cortisol levels. A number of studies have failed to show that. Infact some antidepressants increase cortisol. Long term administration of the TCA clomipramine, for instance increases cortisol levels. Another study showed that long term sertraline increased cortisol in women.
You need to know how it affects you. In my final year of highschool, I was under very little stress. I drank coffee like water 24-7 for the whole year. It was one of the best years of my life.
My father drinks about 6 cups of coffee a day, and is in very good mental health. It depends on the situation, but you're right, everything in moderation.
Linkadge
This is the end of the thread.
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