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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Green Willow on December 10, 2006, at 21:06:51
First question: is malic acid a form of magnesium? I thought maybe it was magnesium malate but I am not sure.
Second question: I took malic acid (only a quarter of their recommended daily dose) and it really dogged me. Any explanations? What I really wanted to do was find some kind of magnesium that I could take without getting wired and heart arrythmias, which is what magnesium glycinate does to me, and I thought malic acid was a form of mag. Now I am not sure about any of this.
Posted by JLx on December 11, 2006, at 19:46:19
In reply to malic acid magnesium questions, posted by Green Willow on December 10, 2006, at 21:06:51
A chemist I'm not, but my understanding is that malic acid itself is separate from magnesium. Magnesium malate is magnesium and malic acid chelated. I have magnesium malate, for instance, and of 1000 mg it says it is 15% magnesum, in a quarter teaspoon. So I take that to mean that there's 150 mg of magnesium, and the rest is malic acid.
Magnesium giving you heart arrhythmias is a puzzler. I can't see why it would. Magnesium itself can be energizing for some people, but glycinate is more likely sedating.
Magnesium orotate is supposed to be especially GOOD for the heart.
I would suggest a smaller dose of magnesium, or perphaps you don't need any supplemented at all? Why are you taking magnesium? Perhaps eating magnesium rich foods would suffice.
You might also try some calcium with the magesium, either equal or 2:1 calcium to magnesium. Again, I would try only a small amount. Or do you already take calcium? Or do you eat a lot of calcium rich foods?
My understanding is that magnesium and calcium have a complex relationship. Too much calcium without enough magnesium, for instance, may result in very little calcium actually being used, because it needs SOME magnesium to do its job. So then it makes sense to me that suddenly taking magnesium could actually result in a calcium rush, as the calcium is now being utilized. And that may cause arrythymia. Or perhaps it's the other way around, too much magnesium, not enough calcium. Just speculating.
Since everyone's different, you may just need to do more experimentation.
JL
> First question: is malic acid a form of magnesium? I thought maybe it was magnesium malate but I am not sure.
>
> Second question: I took malic acid (only a quarter of their recommended daily dose) and it really dogged me. Any explanations? What I really wanted to do was find some kind of magnesium that I could take without getting wired and heart arrythmias, which is what magnesium glycinate does to me, and I thought malic acid was a form of mag. Now I am not sure about any of this.
Posted by Green Willow on December 12, 2006, at 19:38:20
In reply to Re: malic acid magnesium questions » Green Willow, posted by JLx on December 11, 2006, at 19:46:19
It's all a bit of a puzzle. I have osteoporosis that is caused by calcium malabsorption. The doctor was treating it with hydrochlorathiazide which helps the kidneys absorb calcium better + actonel. I did fine on that, but recently they did a vitamin D test and found that I am very low on Vit. D, 25-OH,D2 (only 4), so the doctor put me on low dose calcium + D. That made my heart pound, just like Magnesium does. Anyway, I was thinking I should try adding magnesium to the calcium and D, but nothing is working right now. I only tried adding mag. glycinate for 2 days, then tried malic acid for 2 days, without good results. Now I am having roaring tinnitis, bad facial and head sensations, extreme sensitivity to lights, and fullness in the head. Would welcome any ideas. Will doctor for appointment tomorrow. Thanks, GW
> A chemist I'm not, but my understanding is that malic acid itself is separate from magnesium. Magnesium malate is magnesium and malic acid chelated. I have magnesium malate, for instance, and of 1000 mg it says it is 15% magnesum, in a quarter teaspoon. So I take that to mean that there's 150 mg of magnesium, and the rest is malic acid.
>
> Magnesium giving you heart arrhythmias is a puzzler. I can't see why it would. Magnesium itself can be energizing for some people, but glycinate is more likely sedating.
>
> Magnesium orotate is supposed to be especially GOOD for the heart.
>
> I would suggest a smaller dose of magnesium, or perphaps you don't need any supplemented at all? Why are you taking magnesium? Perhaps eating magnesium rich foods would suffice.
>
> You might also try some calcium with the magesium, either equal or 2:1 calcium to magnesium. Again, I would try only a small amount. Or do you already take calcium? Or do you eat a lot of calcium rich foods?
>
> My understanding is that magnesium and calcium have a complex relationship. Too much calcium without enough magnesium, for instance, may result in very little calcium actually being used, because it needs SOME magnesium to do its job. So then it makes sense to me that suddenly taking magnesium could actually result in a calcium rush, as the calcium is now being utilized. And that may cause arrythymia. Or perhaps it's the other way around, too much magnesium, not enough calcium. Just speculating.
>
> Since everyone's different, you may just need to do more experimentation.
>
> JL
>
> > First question: is malic acid a form of magnesium? I thought maybe it was magnesium malate but I am not sure.
> >
> > Second question: I took malic acid (only a quarter of their recommended daily dose) and it really dogged me. Any explanations? What I really wanted to do was find some kind of magnesium that I could take without getting wired and heart arrythmias, which is what magnesium glycinate does to me, and I thought malic acid was a form of mag. Now I am not sure about any of this.
>
>
Posted by Green Willow on December 12, 2006, at 19:42:59
In reply to Re: malic acid magnesium questions » Green Willow, posted by JLx on December 11, 2006, at 19:46:19
It's all a bit of a puzzle. I have osteoporosis that is caused by calcium malabsorption. The doctor was treating it with hydrochlorathiazide which helps the kidneys absorb calcium better + actonel. I did fine on that, but recently they did a vitamin D test and found that I am very low on Vit. D, 25-OH,D2 (only 4), so the doctor put me on low dose calcium + D. That made my heart pound, just like Magnesium does. Anyway, I was thinking I should try adding magnesium to the calcium and D, but nothing is working right now. I only tried adding mag. glycinate for 2 days, then tried malic acid for 2 days, without good results. Now I am having roaring tinnitis, bad facial and head sensations, extreme sensitivity to lights, and fullness in the head. Would welcome any ideas. Will doctor for appointment tomorrow. Thanks, GW
> A chemist I'm not, but my understanding is that malic acid itself is separate from magnesium. Magnesium malate is magnesium and malic acid chelated. I have magnesium malate, for instance, and of 1000 mg it says it is 15% magnesum, in a quarter teaspoon. So I take that to mean that there's 150 mg of magnesium, and the rest is malic acid.
>
> Magnesium giving you heart arrhythmias is a puzzler. I can't see why it would. Magnesium itself can be energizing for some people, but glycinate is more likely sedating.
>
> Magnesium orotate is supposed to be especially GOOD for the heart.
>
> I would suggest a smaller dose of magnesium, or perphaps you don't need any supplemented at all? Why are you taking magnesium? Perhaps eating magnesium rich foods would suffice.
>
> You might also try some calcium with the magesium, either equal or 2:1 calcium to magnesium. Again, I would try only a small amount. Or do you already take calcium? Or do you eat a lot of calcium rich foods?
>
> My understanding is that magnesium and calcium have a complex relationship. Too much calcium without enough magnesium, for instance, may result in very little calcium actually being used, because it needs SOME magnesium to do its job. So then it makes sense to me that suddenly taking magnesium could actually result in a calcium rush, as the calcium is now being utilized. And that may cause arrythymia. Or perhaps it's the other way around, too much magnesium, not enough calcium. Just speculating.
>
> Since everyone's different, you may just need to do more experimentation.
>
> JL
>
> > First question: is malic acid a form of magnesium? I thought maybe it was magnesium malate but I am not sure.
> >
> > Second question: I took malic acid (only a quarter of their recommended daily dose) and it really dogged me. Any explanations? What I really wanted to do was find some kind of magnesium that I could take without getting wired and heart arrythmias, which is what magnesium glycinate does to me, and I thought malic acid was a form of mag. Now I am not sure about any of this.
>
>
Posted by JLx on December 12, 2006, at 21:12:09
In reply to Help!! Re: malic acid magnesium questions, posted by Green Willow on December 12, 2006, at 19:42:59
> It's all a bit of a puzzle. I have osteoporosis that is caused by calcium malabsorption. The doctor was treating it with hydrochlorathiazide which helps the kidneys absorb calcium better + actonel. I did fine on that, but recently they did a vitamin D test and found that I am very low on Vit. D, 25-OH,D2 (only 4), so the doctor put me on low dose calcium + D. That made my heart pound, just like Magnesium does. Anyway, I was thinking I should try adding magnesium to the calcium and D, but nothing is working right now. I only tried adding mag. glycinate for 2 days, then tried malic acid for 2 days, without good results. Now I am having roaring tinnitis, bad facial and head sensations, extreme sensitivity to lights, and fullness in the head. Would welcome any ideas. Will doctor for appointment tomorrow. Thanks, GW
It is a puzzle, but that latter stuff sure sounds like magnesium deficiency symptoms.
Something I have observed as well as read of, is that supplementing with Vit D depletes magnesium. I have been experimenting with Vit D and when I take 2-4000 mg a day, I start getting cramps in my feet again and irritable like I do when I'm low on magnesium.
How much Vit D are you taking and how much calcium? I think if I were you I might try something like the magnesium chloride that comes in liquid form -- then you could just put some drops in a quantity of water and sip throughout the day. I just ordered some myself from Amazon so I can do that. Perhaps that would be more helpful than a certain amount all at one time. Perhaps it is the sudden influx that causes the heart pounding. The other thing I might suggest is to take an Epsom Salt bath, which is magnesium sulfate. Absorption through the skin may also be different.
Did your doctor have an explanation for the calcium malabsorption?
Have you ever tried another form of magnesium than mg glycinate? Magnesium malate is another one that can be put into water and then drank over a period of time. It has a slightly tart taste. (And I do believe it's different from malic acid).
You may already be familiar with Joseph Mercola's website. If not, he is a conventionally trained D.O. who has turned to alternative medicine. He has a clinic outside Chicago and has tested many of his patients for Vit D, and has written about it quite often. Here's one page about the tests and values: http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/23/vitamin_d_deficiency.htm Your test was only *4*??? Why can't your doctor give you a Vit D shot? My understanding is that they can give shots up to 10,000 units or more, and this is a much more effective way of raising Vit D than orally.
It may also be possible that the meds you're taking are interacting with the supplements in some way.
Also don't forget food to increase magnesium. http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrient&dbid=75
I have been helped by magnesium so much after being so ignorant about all the calcium that I was eating and/or supplementing (with a calcium kidney stone to show for it!) that I'm very leery of the advisability of anyone taking calcium without magnesium. Especially as magnesium is depleted by stress, and who isn't stressed?
The heart pounding may be related to something else entirely too that the magnesium glycinate exacerbated or affected, and that may not have been due to the magnesium itself but to the chelation with glycine. The magnesium/amino acid chelates can be effective IF you want the result of the amino acid as well as magnesium. If not, there's magesium citrate, magnesium chloride, mg orotate, mg malate.
I think the key may be to find a way to take a gradual dose, however.
JL
Posted by Green Willow on December 13, 2006, at 18:16:45
In reply to Re: Help!! Re: malic acid magnesium questions » Green Willow, posted by JLx on December 12, 2006, at 21:12:09
JL,
Thanks for the informatitive response. To answer the questions, the doctor tells me that my kidneys are not working so well and that is some of the reason why I have calcium malabsorption. Now it is also discovered that I have gluten intolerance (they tell me it is not fullblown celiacs), and he has also said I have secondary hyperparathyroidism. I too have had stones in the past, and much muscle disturbance. I see the doctor tomorrow and will ask about a Vit D shot. The calcium-vit D supp that I take is Citrical, 2 tablets contain 400 mg. calcium and 400 IU Vit D3. As far as the magnesium, about a year ago a doctor gave me an injection of mag and I got the same heart pounding thing. I have only tried 100 - 200 mg. of mag glycinate/day (I get serious diarrhea) and also the malic acid suppl. contained 125 mg. magnesium citrate (1/d). I also know that if I take actonel 35 mg. weekly I get problems with the face going numb, etc., but with a reduced dose of 30 mg. weekly I was ok. I took boniva for awhile and it caused me severe back pain. I like your idea about getting the mag liquid and adding tiny amounts, and I will see if I benefit from the epsom baths as well as look over Dr. Mercola's site. I do eat almonds and cashews daily. About 4 years ago, I was totally disabled by the tinnitis, facial numbness, hypersensitivies to lights and noise, and fullness in head that I lost 6 months of work. It finally disappeared when I was taken off the actonel (35) totally and had low Potassium level addressed. I hope the doctor that I see tomorrow will be blessed with helpfulness. Thanks ~ GW
Posted by dreamann on December 14, 2006, at 0:04:50
In reply to malic acid magnesium questions, posted by Green Willow on December 10, 2006, at 21:06:51
Just thought Id share my experience with different magnesiums. I have taken many different forms of magnesium and the glycinate form was the only one that gave me "wired heart" and palpitations, which is what I was trying to get rid of...strange! The oxide form, liquid chloride form, and malate (malic acid) all had good effects. Are you sure the malic acid/malate variety gave you bad effects or did your symptoms just not resolve? Did your mag muscular injection include any other vitamins such as B's?
Posted by Green Willow on December 14, 2006, at 21:51:05
In reply to Re: malic acid magnesium questions, posted by dreamann on December 14, 2006, at 0:04:50
The malic acid formula that I took also had some magnesium citrate in it. I honestly cannot remember if it whacked out my heart, but it totally dogged me out so that I became a total zombee. I am not certain if the injection had any more than Mag or not, if it did the doctor did not tell me about it. Have you ever gotten a medical explanation for the wired heart? I asked my endo today and he said it is paradoxical. I get the same effect from melatonin and rozarem. Have you ever taken them? I may try the other forms of mag that you mentioned. Have you ever tried transdermal mag?
>Just thought Id share my experience with different magnesiums. I have taken many different forms of magnesium and the glycinate form was the only one that gave me "wired heart" and palpitations, which is what I was trying to get rid of...strange! The oxide form, liquid chloride form, and malate (malic acid) all had good effects. Are you sure the malic acid/malate variety gave you bad effects or did your symptoms just not resolve? Did your mag muscular injection include any other vitamins such as B's?
>
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