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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 19 of 19. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
(from http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20061011/msgs/693849.html)
Thanks, Meri. Lots of info. :-)
> I think the problem isn't with fish oil per se, its with fish oil from fish livers, ie/eg cod liver oil - I think that carries labels saying it contains vitamin A
Googling & Wikiing a bit just now, I think you're right about that. But a few hours ago in the store, I saw a bottle of generic Vitamin A and it said it was 8,000 IU (180% RDA, I think) and made from sardines. Then I looked at the Spring Valley fish oil capsules and they're made from mackerel & sardines. Since I take 4.5 times the recommended dose in order to get 2 grams of EPA, I'm still wondering a little. I think I'll look into a little more, even as I keep taking my 9 fish oil capsules / day.
Thanks for the links. And very interesting about vegetable vitamin A. Flaxseed, I guess?
Incidentally, I'm just finishing my second week of 2 g/day EPA and I have been completely non-depressed for longer & longer stretches. But I still obsess that everyone hates my guts, so I guess nothing's perfek. ;-)
Posted by Declan on October 11, 2006, at 17:26:25
In reply to fish oil vitamin A, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
Some fishermen eat the liver of a halibut. Their skin peeled off and they were poisoned for a bit by the Vit A.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 17:55:14
In reply to fish oil vitamin A, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
I agree that the melatonin might be the problem. It can definitely worsen or cause depression.
I found melotonin 2mg increased my anergic depression--helped me sleep, but made it very hard to get through the day.
I have also read that it is associated with strange dreams and various other nasty sounding side-effects. At one point, I read an interview with a man who had written a book on the subject, who complained that the 1-3mg doses that melatonin supplements were sold under, were overloading the system and desensitizing the receptors--and probably causing various unknown nastiness. I took it with a grain of salt, but...I'd be wary of the stuff if I were you. I never touch it anymore, even though it clearly helped me sleep.
Some say .3mg is a much more appropriate dose, and you can find it sold that way on amazon.
But I'd be wary of the fish oil too (as you already seem to be). I just started taking it, and I'm not exactly sure what it's doing to me. Not helping my sleep, I know that.
Switching to a fish-oil brand that's either mostly DHA or mostly EPA might help you. They seem to have differing effects in the brain.
Posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 21:15:15
In reply to Re: melatonin, fish oil, posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 17:55:14
Hi, p-bot.
> But I'd be wary of the fish oil too (as you already seem to be).
Because of vitamin A toxicity, you mean?
> Switching to a fish-oil brand that's either mostly DHA or mostly EPA might help you. They seem to have differing effects in the brain.
In Servan-Schreiber's book "Instinct to Heal" (which I seem to mention no matter what the thread is about, lol), he says DHA supplement has been found to NOT help depression, whereas EPA or a less-DHA/more-EPA mix does. I had tried veggie DHA before without success.
I could try flaxseed EPA, but it has some drawback, too. Too sleepy to think what it is.
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 11, 2006, at 22:09:51
In reply to DHA vs EPA » psychobot5000, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 21:15:15
Hi, thanks for the info--ironically, your helpful info from Servan Schrieber aided me with a question I was just in the middle of writing.
What I thought about fish oil was that the EPA might be causing insomnia, and the DHA -just might- be causing the worsened mood and motivation-less depression.
> In Servan-Schreiber's book "Instinct to Heal" (which I seem to mention no matter what the thread is about, lol), he says DHA supplement has been found to NOT help depression, whereas EPA or a less-DHA/more-EPA mix does. I had tried veggie DHA before without success.
>If I remember right, it sounded like AdamCanada was facing an increase in anergic depression, so I thought -just maybe- the DHA could be related. ...It seems to be making me feel like crap, now that I've started on a 250mg DHA, 36mg EPA diet. The more EPA-heavy diet was definitely giving me insomnia.
Of course there's also Adamcanada's melatonin to worry about.
Anyway, just my 2 cents. I'd stay away from both the fish-oil and the melatonin, for the time-being.
Posted by Meri-Tuuli on October 12, 2006, at 1:22:33
In reply to fish oil vitamin A, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
Hey...
Just to clarify....there are two types of fish oil, the oil that comes from the liver (eg cod liver oil) and the oil that comes from elsewhere in the fish.... you know, like the flesh etc.
Its the fish oil from the liver thats problematic - or at least, in large quantities.
It'd be fine taking the ultrahigh fish oil, as long as it doesn't say it contains vitamin A on the label...which it should do, I think there are laws on it and stuff.....I would expect that the fish oil you're using comes from the non-liver parts of the fish, as is most 'omega 3 oil' these days.
beta carotine is the vegetable form of vit A and is found in carrots, mangoes, peaches etc - fruit which is orange.... whats what makes it orange! Its also found in some fruits/veggies that are dark green and leafy....
Anyway...
Well I don't hate you! Good to hear that you're depression free.....
Kind regards
Meri
Posted by pseudoname on October 12, 2006, at 11:09:43
In reply to fish oil vitamin A, posted by pseudoname on October 11, 2006, at 17:16:38
I saw my pdoc this morning and (among other discussions) again she suggested vagal nerve surgery. I said, "I'm not impressed by the numbers"; she admitted she wasn't, either.
Before I left, I mentioned that I just started trying fish oil capsules for EPA (an omega-3). She laughed. I said, "There's research backing it up." She rolled her eyes and chuckled. "Oh yeah," she said, "the government would never lie to you." I said, "It's university research!" She smirked incredulously and said, "Oh, okay, okay." I said, "There's more research backing up EPA than backing up VNS!" She had no snappy comeback for that.
She had EPA confused with taking vitamins to combat free radicals. She said, "If you want to take it, go ahead. But fish oil is a waste."
Arrgh! But she prescribes my bupe and she's sweet enough, so I'll keep her for now. I said to her, "It's a good thing I have some self-confidence in the face of your dismissive attitude." She said, "Oh, I figure you can hold your own intellectually."
I told her, "I've been dealing with pdocs for 20 years. None of them scare me."
Posted by Declan on October 12, 2006, at 12:11:44
In reply to my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by pseudoname on October 12, 2006, at 11:09:43
Posted by Jlx on October 12, 2006, at 19:36:02
In reply to my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by pseudoname on October 12, 2006, at 11:09:43
> I saw my pdoc this morning and (among other discussions) again she suggested vagal nerve surgery. I said, "I'm not impressed by the numbers"; she admitted she wasn't, either.
>
> Before I left, I mentioned that I just started trying fish oil capsules for EPA (an omega-3). She laughed. I said, "There's research backing it up." She rolled her eyes and chuckled. "Oh yeah," she said, "the government would never lie to you." I said, "It's university research!" She smirked incredulously and said, "Oh, okay, okay." I said, "There's more research backing up EPA than backing up VNS!" She had no snappy comeback for that.
>
> She had EPA confused with taking vitamins to combat free radicals. She said, "If you want to take it, go ahead. But fish oil is a waste."
>
> Arrgh! But she prescribes my bupe and she's sweet enough, so I'll keep her for now. I said to her, "It's a good thing I have some self-confidence in the face of your dismissive attitude." She said, "Oh, I figure you can hold your own intellectually."
>
> I told her, "I've been dealing with pdocs for 20 years. None of them scare me."My psychiatrist warned me against the very thing that has helped my depression the most -- magnesium. I haven't seen him since, or taken his drugs. :)
JL
Posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2006, at 23:00:03
In reply to my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by pseudoname on October 12, 2006, at 11:09:43
That seems very odd to me, because I just mentioned fish-oil to a doctor about two days ago, and he nodded and said, 'Oh yeah. Doctors all take it, these days.'
Though in further conversation he said it was mostly for the cardiovascular benefit. Still.
Posted by Declan on October 13, 2006, at 2:58:27
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by psychobot5000 on October 12, 2006, at 23:00:03
It's good for (among other things?)
Depression
Blood pressure
Arthritis
InflammationI have all of them. Since going to equivalent of 1g EPA/d I've felt improvement.
Posted by Declan on October 13, 2006, at 2:59:06
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by Declan on October 13, 2006, at 2:58:27
Allergies, maybe?
Posted by tealady on October 13, 2006, at 3:03:06
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste” » pseudoname, posted by Jlx on October 12, 2006, at 19:36:02
now JL, why would anyone do themselves out of a job? unless demand is unmeetable perhaps? :)
Posted by pseudoname on October 14, 2006, at 10:33:59
In reply to my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by pseudoname on October 12, 2006, at 11:09:43
At the same appointment, my pdoc said people sometimes feel less depressed after getting an MRI of their head! So I mentioned transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS): SHE HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT!!
As I described it, she got the STUPIDEST look on her face, as if I were describing a clown-and-dog show.
What is it with these people?! How could any mental health medical specialist not at least have HEARD of TMS?!
Posted by Jlx on October 14, 2006, at 11:32:43
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste”, posted by tealady on October 13, 2006, at 3:03:06
> now JL, why would anyone do themselves out of a job? unless demand is unmeetable perhaps? :)
>Well, honestly, sometimes I wonder. That psychiatrists, who supposedly train all those years in anatomy, physiology, biology, etc to be medical doctors as opposed to those "soft" scientists, the psychologists, should be so absolutely ignorant of nutrition makes no sense to me. I've never had a p-doc ask me what I usually ate. Suppose I ate nothing but Twinkies! Wouldn't that then be a possible explanation for feelings of depression?
Well, I know you know what I mean. :)
JL
Posted by linkadge on October 16, 2006, at 18:13:26
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste” » tealady, posted by Jlx on October 14, 2006, at 11:32:43
I just saw an article on the news about fish oil in use for winter depression. The reason she says it is a waste, is because effective supplements like like SJW and omega-3 compromise her ability to hook as many patients on unnessary medications as possable.
Linkadge
Posted by ExcellentCamper on October 17, 2006, at 6:51:42
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste” » pseudoname, posted by Jlx on October 12, 2006, at 19:36:02
Can you please tell me about your experience with magnesium (how much you take, when, how it's helped, etc.)?> > I saw my pdoc this morning and (among other discussions) again she suggested vagal nerve surgery. I said, "I'm not impressed by the numbers"; she admitted she wasn't, either.
> >
> > Before I left, I mentioned that I just started trying fish oil capsules for EPA (an omega-3). She laughed. I said, "There's research backing it up." She rolled her eyes and chuckled. "Oh yeah," she said, "the government would never lie to you." I said, "It's university research!" She smirked incredulously and said, "Oh, okay, okay." I said, "There's more research backing up EPA than backing up VNS!" She had no snappy comeback for that.
> >
> > She had EPA confused with taking vitamins to combat free radicals. She said, "If you want to take it, go ahead. But fish oil is a waste."
> >
> > Arrgh! But she prescribes my bupe and she's sweet enough, so I'll keep her for now. I said to her, "It's a good thing I have some self-confidence in the face of your dismissive attitude." She said, "Oh, I figure you can hold your own intellectually."
> >
> > I told her, "I've been dealing with pdocs for 20 years. None of them scare me."
>
> My psychiatrist warned me against the very thing that has helped my depression the most -- magnesium. I haven't seen him since, or taken his drugs. :)
>
> JL
Posted by Jlx on October 18, 2006, at 18:51:28
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste” » Jlx, posted by ExcellentCamper on October 17, 2006, at 6:51:42
>
> Can you please tell me about your experience with magnesium (how much you take, when, how it's helped, etc.)?I've answered that recently and I'm sure some people will appreciate me not repeating myself once again. ;)
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061013/msgs/695405.html
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20061013/msgs/694518.html
JL
Posted by tealady on October 20, 2006, at 22:34:19
In reply to Re: my pdoc: “Fish oil is a waste” » tealady, posted by Jlx on October 14, 2006, at 11:32:43
Well JL, to the best of my awareness, there aint no nutrition (other than perhaps the food pyramid) taught in medical schools in Aust.. I have looked at the subjects and entrance prereqs in a few places.
We don't have an "internal medicine" alternative in Oz either.. or nurse practioners.. and althernative docs don't hold equivalent status with traditional doctors as they do in Europe.or it could be this conspiracy theory
http://www.mercola.com/2006/oct/19/why-doesnt-your-doctor-recommend-fish-oil.htm
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