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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by mystery road on December 28, 2005, at 4:08:29
In reply to Re: What to do if Nardil and Parnate were discontinued, posted by linkadge on December 24, 2005, at 19:59:05
> I've always wanted to try an MAO-A selective drug. Parnate make me slighly psychotic. I think I was getting to much PEA neurotransmission from parnate and exercise.
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> I took turmeric, at doses supposedly sufficiant to inhibit MAO-A and MAO-B significantly. Then I combined it with rosemarry, which is a fairly potenet acetylcholinsterase inhibitor.
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> Anyhow, adding the latter caused some really freaky effects. Kind of a panickey and depressing walk down memory lane.
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> I stand behind the antidepressant effects of turmeric though. Probably twice the effect on MAO-A than MAO-B.
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> Linkadge
Hi Linkadge..Could you write more about your turmeric experiences?..Has it worked for you?..At what doses?
MR
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Posted by Larry Hoover on December 28, 2005, at 4:08:29
In reply to Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by mystery road on December 27, 2005, at 18:31:50
> Hi Linkadge..
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> Could you write more about your turmeric experiences?..Has it worked for you?..At what doses?
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> MRA word of caution about turmeric. It may well be an MAO inhibitor with some potency, but it most assuredly contains one of the most potent COX-2 (cyclo-oxygenase) inhibitors ever discovered. COX (the target of e.g. Vioxx, or Aspirin) also goes by another name, prostaglandin synthase. As you might imagine, completely shutting down prostaglandin synthesis for an extended period is not a good idea. I'm afraid that a dose of turmeric sufficient to have MAO effects would be toxic in the COX realm. I don't know that (relevant potency/dosage), but I believe it to be the case.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on December 28, 2005, at 4:08:29
In reply to Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by mystery road on December 27, 2005, at 18:31:50
Yeah. Turmeric certainly has antidepressant properties. I have taken prescription MAO inhibitors before, so I am able to mentally compare the similarities.
The below study suggests significant MAO-A inhibiton at 140mg/kg. MAO-B inhibition seemed to become more observable at a higher dose.
So basically, I ingest about 10 grams of turmeric daily, which would put me in the ballpark. I mix a few grams in hot water, plug my nose and swallow. I do this a few times a day.
Sujectivly though, brighter vision, less sleep, slightly acellerated heartrate. It does make me a little more irritable though, as did parnate. The one biggest similarity I can notice between the turmeric and parnate, is that both made things look more interesting. I remember staring at a sewer drain for an hour thinking, I've lived on this block all my life, how come I've never noticed this sewer drain before ! Strange.
http://moodfoods.com/turmeric.html
Linkadge
Posted by linkadge on December 28, 2005, at 4:08:29
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor? » mystery road, posted by Larry Hoover on December 27, 2005, at 20:20:36
I've had that warning in the back of my mind ever since an apt herbalist mentioned the same thing.
He didn't go so far as to say that it was strictly contraindicated though, he said he would look into it.*Some*, anti-inflamitory action might be benefitial in depression as elevated inflamation can supress neurogenesis, but I don't know how to compare the two actons of turmeric.
I know that several grams are used on a daily basis in arthritis, and other inflamitory conditions.
I am also wondering how COX-2 system recovers in response to turmeric as compared to the MAO-A/B system.
Generally, I tend to lower the turmeric dose, and combine it with Fo-ti, which is reported to inhibit both A/B forms, with stronger effect on MAO-B.
Safety asside, I was just surprised that it did indeed seem to exhibit a marked antidepressant effect in myself.
Linkadge
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 28, 2005, at 4:08:30
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2005, at 21:54:00
> So basically, I ingest about 10 grams of turmeric daily, which would put me in the ballpark. I mix a few grams in hot water, plug my nose and swallow. I do this a few times a day.How do you measure the dose? Any idea how much mass might be in a heaping teaspoonful?
Lar
P.S. When I was using at as an anti-inflammatory, I got rather fond of the taste. It's rather bitter, but not at all disagreeable, IMHO.
Posted by linkadge on December 28, 2005, at 11:17:35
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor? » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 27, 2005, at 22:33:06
The bottle contents were indicated in mass. I emptied the contents of the bottle, then filled the bottle with water to get a volumetric size of the bottle.
From there, I just converted the ratio into something I needed.
I got 1g ~ 0.45 tsp.
so 10g ~ 1.5 tbsp.
Does that sound right ?
Linkadge
Posted by Declan on December 28, 2005, at 17:23:52
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2005, at 21:54:00
Some years ago I took a thing called 'Herbal Cardiovascular Formula' which contained 500mg curcumin in a daily dose. I dunno how much tumeric that's equivalent to. I don't recall an AD effect, but.......
Declan
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 29, 2005, at 5:19:41
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 28, 2005, at 11:17:35
> The bottle contents were indicated in mass. I emptied the contents of the bottle, then filled the bottle with water to get a volumetric size of the bottle.
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> From there, I just converted the ratio into something I needed.
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> I got 1g ~ 0.45 tsp.
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> so 10g ~ 1.5 tbsp.
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> Does that sound right ?
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> LinkadgeYes, that sounds like a valid ratio of volume and mass.
Based on your calibration, 1 tsp. would be 2 grams (more or less), and a heaping teaspoon closer to 3.
That's the most I've ever taken, and only for anti-inflammatory effects. At that dose, once a day, I had better response than Vioxx 50 mg (high dose), twice a day.
So, I had massive COX inhibition, at much lower dose (closer to the low end of your turmeric paper re: MAOI effect). I'm rather concerned if you take this for an extended period. There is a lot we don't know about COX-mediated biochemistry, including issues such as rebound from inhibition.
Some of your antidepressant-like response might be mediated via COX, by the way. Inflammatory response has been linked to mood in a great number of studies, but nobody has tried to figure out if it's independent of e.g. analgesic effect observed in arthritis studies or cancer inhibition studies.
Turmeric has such a high colon-cancer inhibitory effect, it's been considered as a treatment, but computer simulations have shown that semi-synthetic analogs have greater activity yet.
My point in bringing these activities to your attention is to consider that herbal treatments are really massive polypharmacy experiments. There can be dozens, if not hundreds, of active components. Surely, not all of them are beneficial, or at least, beneficial in chronic intake.
Lar
Posted by linkadge on December 29, 2005, at 13:03:21
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor? » linkadge, posted by Larry Hoover on December 29, 2005, at 5:19:41
This is it. Some of the antidepressant effect could have been through an anti-inflamitory action. I have had mood improvement after taking anti-inflamitory agents.
However, the most telltale sign that something funky was happening with neurotranmsitters was when I mixed it with a TCA (before I knew about possable MAO inhibiting effects), I had some really bad cardiac, and serotonin syndrome like effects.
I would a avoid high dose turmeric if you were taking a SNRI or the like.
Linkadge
Posted by mako23 on December 30, 2005, at 11:32:00
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 29, 2005, at 13:03:21
I have a Indian friend who has some knowledge of using Tumeric for health purposes. He strongly stated that high dosages were dangerous.
Posted by linkadge on December 30, 2005, at 17:19:25
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by mako23 on December 30, 2005, at 11:32:00
I am seeing an indian guy too. Did the guy you're seeing mention what he quantified as a high dose ?
Linkadge
Posted by mako23 on December 30, 2005, at 18:57:16
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 30, 2005, at 17:19:25
No he didn't he just recommended using a pinch or two. this is very unscientific, however he did help me with a problem with chronic flatuance :) He gave me two pills which fixed my problem with my bowels.
The problem with Indian medicine is that a lot of the information is kept within families. For many of these families keeping this information private is a means of keeping their income. Yes a lot of information has been researched by Indian pharmaceutical companies and universities however a lot of information is still kept private.
After my own experiences with Indian herbs I definitely have come to respect their power. My friend didn't give me a reason why tumeric was dangerous however he was strongly insistent that high dosages were dangerous. Apparently the women from his region of India used to put tumeric powder on their faces as a form of natural hair removal. On the positive side he strongly agreed that there was a lot of favourable uses for tumeric when used in moderate doses.
Cheers
Mako23> I am seeing an indian guy too. Did the guy you're seeing mention what he quantified as a high dose ?
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> Linkadge
Posted by DDM on January 25, 2006, at 15:29:39
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor?, posted by linkadge on December 27, 2005, at 21:54:00
I have read thru your messages, and I may have missed it, but are you using the everyday turmeric found at the grocery store, or the guaranteed 95% curcumin usually found in health food stores?
Posted by DDM on January 25, 2006, at 16:20:54
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor? » linkadge, posted by DDM on January 25, 2006, at 15:29:39
Hello everybody,
BTW, I'm new here and trying to find my way at this posting thing. Much of the info I've found so far has been very helpful.
Thanks!
Posted by DDM on February 2, 2006, at 0:32:47
In reply to Re: Linkadge..Tumeric as MAO inhibitor? » linkadge, posted by DDM on January 25, 2006, at 15:29:39
> I have read thru your messages, and I may have missed it, but are you using the everyday turmeric found at the grocery store, or the guaranteed 95% curcumin usually found in health food stores?
If Linkage or anyone else participating in this thread could supply me with this information I would really appreciate it. My reason for asking is that the standard turmeric powders found in grocery stores, etc, are 4-5% curcumin (the active ingredient in turmeric), while the extract found in health food stores is about 95% curcumin. That would affect dosing quite significantly. Thanks so much for any response!
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