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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by blueberry on January 15, 2006, at 11:31:20
Does anyone know how pycnogenol works? There are anecdotal reports that it can be used instead of ritalin for ADD or ADHD. There are anecdotal reports of it being a good antidepressant. When I tried it, I got clear antidepressant effects the first day, but the effect wasn't as pronounced the next day. I gave up on it fast because I thought it was a fluke or quick tolerance or something, but now I'm thinking maybe I should give it a couple weeks.
It's primarily a radical scavenger. But it also has something to do with norepinephrine and dopamine. I'm reading a book that says if omega3, tyrosine and dlpa don't do the trick for you, then try pycnogenol because it stimulates catecholamine activity. On the internet the best I can find is that it affects enzymes that modulate norepinephrine and dopamine. But what exactly does that mean?
Does anyone know how pycnogenol modulates the catecholamines?
Posted by fairywings on January 15, 2006, at 21:13:28
In reply to Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by blueberry on January 15, 2006, at 11:31:20
I tried everything b4 resorting to meds for ADD, even grape seed extract/pycnogenol. Everything recommended in Dr. Amen's books, every homeopathic that was recommended to me, every herb and bach flower essence, aromatherapy, and even the hugely expensive CDs you play for attention. Nothing worked for me, or for my son, until we tried the prescription meds. Sorry to be pessimistic. If you find something let me know, I'd be interested.
fw
Posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 11:32:45
In reply to Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by blueberry on January 15, 2006, at 11:31:20
I know that quercetin, which might be similar, i think is a COMT inhibitor, meaning increased norepinephrine. Maybe Pycnogenol is also a COMT inhibitor.
Posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 19:33:21
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 11:32:45
Pycnogenol does feel mildly noradrenergic and dopaminergic. Definitely not serotonergic.
Question though, I am not up to speed on this, what is a COMT inhibitor? I've heard it mentioned a few other times, but I don't know what COMT is or what a COMT inhibitor does.
???> I know that quercetin, which might be similar, i think is a COMT inhibitor, meaning increased norepinephrine. Maybe Pycnogenol is also a COMT inhibitor.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:30:07
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression? » Mistermindmasta, posted by blueberry on January 16, 2006, at 19:33:21
> Pycnogenol does feel mildly noradrenergic and dopaminergic. Definitely not serotonergic.
>
> Question though, I am not up to speed on this, what is a COMT inhibitor? I've heard it mentioned a few other times, but I don't know what COMT is or what a COMT inhibitor does.
> ???
>If I remember corrently, norepinephrine is removed from the synapse in one of two ways - by the reuptake pump or it is degraded by Catechol-O-Methyl-Transferase (COMT). Inhibiting COMT therefore decreases the amount of norepinephrine in the synapse. To be honest, I don't know it's effects on dopamine - COMT might also break down dopamine but i cant remember.
Green tea contains a compound that also inhibits COMT called ECGC (spelling?). It's actually the major antioxidant in green tea. Green tea leads to increased energy expenditure aside from it's caffeine content, and that's due to ECGC.
The only problem with my responses is that I don't know if pycnogenol actually has any effects on COMT, haha. I should check somewhere and get back to you. Peace.
Posted by linkadge on January 19, 2006, at 13:09:06
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression? » blueberry, posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:30:07
Yeah, COMT metabolizes dopamine as well.
I *think* it's something like this, although somtimes, there is some crossover.
Serotonin - SERT, MAO-A
Norepinephrine - NET, COMT, MAO-A,
Dopamine - DAT, COMT, MAO-A,
PEA - MAO-BLinkadge
Posted by linkadge on January 19, 2006, at 13:11:09
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression? » blueberry, posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 23:30:07
I took a grape seed extract with resveratrol.
I was wondering if it affected monoamine oxidase. I noticed an acute vision brightening effect which I usually notice with other catecholamine enhancing agents.
Linkadge
Posted by JayDee on January 20, 2006, at 1:18:04
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by linkadge on January 19, 2006, at 13:09:06
isnt it
Dopamine - MAO B, not A???
Posted by Declan on January 21, 2006, at 19:05:53
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by Mistermindmasta on January 16, 2006, at 11:32:45
Rutin, of which quercetin is a part, has a clear mild stimultory effect. I wonder why. The COMT thing?
Declan
Posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 15:16:35
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by JayDee on January 20, 2006, at 1:18:04
I think that MAO-A preferentially metabolizes serotonin and norepinephrine, and that MAO-B preferentially metabolizes PEA, but both MAO-A and MAO-B metabolize dopamine.
http://www.wipo.int/cgi-pct/guest/getbykey5?KEY=03/72055.030904&ELEMENT_SET=DECL"MAO also plays an essential role in the oxidative deamination of biogenic and food-derived amines, both in the central nervous system and in peripheral tissues. MAO is found in two functional isoenzyme forms, MAO-A and MAO-B, each of which shows preferential affinity for substrates and specificity toward inhibitors. Thus, MAO-A preferentially oxidizes serotonin, noradrenaline and adrenaline, whereas MAO-B preferentially metabolizes phenylethylamine. Dopamine is a substrate for both forms of the enzyme (Szelenyi, I.). "
Also see:http://biopsychiatry.com/mao.html
Linkadge
Posted by sk85 on December 19, 2010, at 9:03:49
In reply to Re: Pycnogenol..mechanism for ADD depression?, posted by linkadge on January 23, 2006, at 15:16:35
I know this thread is age-old, but I feel that I need to add my experience with pycnogenol which has been actually rather negative. It definately is psychoactive and very reminiscent of Ritalin but much more subtle. This is where I think my problems started with pycnogenol.
I used to take Ritalin for concentration issues. The first few months were great but then I started to notice that my mood was beginning to change for the worse. I kept getting these intense feelins of desperation and sudden dips in motivation where out of the blue in the middle of the day I felt like I didn't want to do anything, even the most pleasurable things I used to do. There are also studies done on rats that show that long-term methylphenidate (Ritalin) causes depressive like behaviour in rodents. So I quit it and felt improvement.
Soon after I started taking pycnogenol for various other reasons. And again after a while I noticed that my mood was getting very very dark. And what do I find? Pycnogenol reduces dopamine and norepinephrine turnover (i.e. probably acts as a MAO-B inhibitor or NDRI). I have replicated this effect with pycnogenol numerous times. Feeling improvement when going off it and getting the same depressive like effect when going on it. It does although have a smooth stimulating properties but it's not worth the depression it brings on.
I'm not sure this effect applies to everyone, but there are other people out there who find DA and NA boosting drugs (eg Ritalin) making them depressed on long-term drug regimes. The reasons behind this are obscure, but it might have something to do with reduced dopamine sensitivity.
This is the end of the thread.
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