![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 22 of 22. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 15:23:03
Hi all, I'm now here.
Last month I went to New York, and met with Dr. Eric Braverman at Pathmedical : http://www.pathmed.com/
I stayed there for two days. On the first day, I'd a physical, then a number of tests namely :
electrocardiogram complete
ultrasound : duplex scan of carotid
Ultrasound : carotid (physiologic)
penile vascular study
urinalysis, non-auto scope
blood draw
dual energy X-ray study of bone density
Doppler echocardiography color flow velocity mapping
echocradiography, transthoracic, real time with image documentation (2D) with or without M-mode recording; complete.
doppler echocardiography, pulsed wave and/or continuous wave with spectral display
Visual evoked potential (VEP) testing central nervous system, checkerboard or flash.
auditory evoked potentials for evoked response audiometry and/or testing of the central nervous system ; comprehensive.
Electroencephalogram (EEG) extended monitoring ; greater than one hour.
Digital analysis of electroencephalogram (EEG) (eg. for epileptic spike analysis).
Neurobehevioral status exam (clinical assessment of thinking, reasoning and judgement, eg, acquired knowledge, attention, memory, visual spatial abilities, language functions, planning) with interpretation and report, per hour
Millon/MMPI-II
MBT/Murphy-Meis
WMS II/Wais R
GAMAAll of the above are the tests that I was performed. Now regarding my hormone blood test results I don't have any printout of those yet, but I spoke with Dr. Braverman last week and he said that :
thyroid's fine
Total testosterone is a tad low
Free testosterone is fine
Estradiol is fine
DHEA is elevated
Cortisol is fine
DHT is a tad low
GH is fine
Prolactin is fineHe ordered that DHEA, TT, FT, SHBG be tested. Blood sample was taken and I'm waiting for the results to get in. He wanted DHEA to be re-tested to validate the first elevated value.
The BEAM test results revealed high acetylcholine at 310, high dopamine at 9.3 mV, and low GABA and Serotonin (5-HT).
The final diagnosis was : Dysthymia and ADHD for which he prescribed the following :
magnesium
zinc
brain energy
brain mood
cernilton
prostate formula
citrinate/citrin chromium
brain calm
brain memory
vitamin D3
Vitamin E
CLA
fish oil
CES (cranial electrical stimulation)
DHEA
Ativan 1 Mg (PM)
Klonopin 0.5 Mg (bedtime)
Paxil 10 Mg (morning)My most obvious symptom is loss of libido--that is the reason why I went to see Dr. Braverman about. I've not started on the Paxil and other pharmaceutical drugs, as I fear Paxil is further going to worsen my lack of sex drive/desire. I also fear the addiction of Benzos. I've found that tryptophan works a bit towards restoring normal libido, and helps with sleep. I tried taking it in the morning and it made me feel awful. Of course it was originally prescribed as a sleep aid, so taking it for daytime use isn't relevant in my particular case I guess, but I wanted to give it a go nonetheless.
Magnesium and zinc which I'd tried before meeting wit hthe good Dr. and both either taken alone or in combination restore my sex drive to normalcy, and help with attention.
I'm puzzled though cause it seems serotoninergics help with my libido, and that's the part that I DON'T quite understand--everyone keeps telling that Dopamine reigns in libido. I know everyone is different, but I've never read much literature about serotonin boosting a flagging sex drive--in fact I've read quite the opposite in that serotonin is a libido killer, and also causes anogasmia. So now I'm really confused about that.
Further, isn't ADHD connected with dopamine (catecholamines) only ? I think it is connected with a deficiency of dopamine in certain regions of the brain.
The list of formulas including : BRAIN ENERGY, BRAIN MEMORY, BRAIN MOOD, and BRAIN CALM can be seen here for a list of the ingredients they contain : http://www.totalhealthsupplements.com/ph/vitamins.html
I'd like to get some of your feedbacks WRT natural options that have helped some of you with Dysthymia and ADHD.
I'll keep a close watch on this posting.
Thanks all in advance.
Marc
Posted by JLx on November 21, 2005, at 16:54:20
In reply to I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 15:23:03
Hi Marc,
That was quite a battery of tests you took there. I hope the results prove equal to them.
Here are the ingredients of the recommended formulas:
Brain Mood: Thiamine - 15mg, Niacinamide - 25mg, Folic Acid - 300mcg, Vitamin B12 - 250mcg, Pantothenic Acid - 25mg, 5-Hydroxytryptophan - 100mg, St. John's Wort Extract - 300mg
Brain Memory: Huperzia serrata extract - 5mg, GPC Choline - 125mg, Phophatidylcholine - 25mg, Acetyl L-Carnitine - 50mg
Brain Energy: DL-Phenylalanine - 300 mg, L-Tyrosine - 200 mg, Rhodiola Rosea - 75 mg, L-Methionine - 60 mg, Octacosanol - 2 mg
Re the results, if DHEA is high, why is he prescribing it?
> The BEAM test results revealed high acetylcholine at 310, high dopamine at 9.3 mV, and low GABA and Serotonin (5-HT).
And if acetylcholine is high, why prescribe "Brain Memory" with acethycholine boosters?
> The final diagnosis was : Dysthymia and ADHD for which he prescribed the following :
>
> magnesium
> zinc
> brain energy
> brain mood
> cernilton
> prostate formula
> citrinate/citrin chromium
> brain calm
> brain memory
> vitamin D3
> Vitamin E
> CLA
> fish oil
> CES (cranial electrical stimulation)
> DHEA
> Ativan 1 Mg (PM)
> Klonopin 0.5 Mg (bedtime)
> Paxil 10 Mg (morning)Those formulas AND medications? You'll have no idea what, if anything, works or doesn't work.
> My most obvious symptom is loss of libido--that is the reason why I went to see Dr. Braverman about. I've not started on the Paxil and other pharmaceutical drugs, as I fear Paxil is further going to worsen my lack of sex drive/desire. I also fear the addiction of Benzos. I've found that tryptophan works a bit towards restoring normal libido, and helps with sleep. I tried taking it in the morning and it made me feel awful. Of course it was originally prescribed as a sleep aid, so taking it for daytime use isn't relevant in my particular case I guess, but I wanted to give it a go nonetheless.
You've tried tryptophan or 5-HTP?
> Magnesium and zinc which I'd tried before meeting wit hthe good Dr. and both either taken alone or in combination restore my sex drive to normalcy, and help with attention.
But you quit taking them? Have you tried magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate before bed?
> I'm puzzled though cause it seems serotoninergics help with my libido, and that's the part that I DON'T quite understand--everyone keeps telling that Dopamine reigns in libido. I know everyone is different, but I've never read much literature about serotonin boosting a flagging sex drive--in fact I've read quite the opposite in that serotonin is a libido killer, and also causes anogasmia. So now I'm really confused about that.
You've taken SSRIs before and they helped?
> Further, isn't ADHD connected with dopamine (catecholamines) only ? I think it is connected with a deficiency of dopamine in certain regions of the brain.
>
> The list of formulas including : BRAIN ENERGY, BRAIN MEMORY, BRAIN MOOD, and BRAIN CALM can be seen here for a list of the ingredients they contain : http://www.totalhealthsupplements.com/ph/vitamins.html
>
> I'd like to get some of your feedbacks WRT natural options that have helped some of you with Dysthymia and ADHD.This was your diagnosis but before you went there your only concern was loss of libido?
> I'll keep a close watch on this posting.
If you check the little box above the post box, you can get a link to answers via e-mail, which is very handy.
> Thanks all in advance.
>
> MarcIn general, what did you think of Dr. Braverman?
JL
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 21:05:02
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD. » Marc Boucher, posted by JLx on November 21, 2005, at 16:54:20
Re the results, if DHEA is high, why is he prescribing it?
*Honestly I don't know, but I'm not sure he'll keep me on it, as he ordered DHEA to be re-tested, but meanwhile he said to take it. At times, it appears that one can derive benefits from a given substance, even though there's no real physiological ned for it. But I'd prefer not to take DHEA if my levels are already high.*
And if acetylcholine is high, why prescribe "Brain Memory" with acethycholine boosters?
*I think it has to do with keeping a balance between brain neurotransmitters. Pretty much as in the case of *dopamine and serotonin counterbalance one another. But come to think of it, I have somewhat important memory loss--short term that is.*
Those formulas AND medications? You'll have no idea what, if anything, works or doesn't work.
*that's why I'm trying one substance at a time--this I hadn't mention in my first posting.*
You've tried tryptophan or 5-HTP?
*I've tried both, and libido wise 5-HTP has more of an positive impact than trytophan, I however wonder why they do, as most of the time, that's dopamine that we hear impacts libido.*
But you quit taking them? Have you tried magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate before bed?
*I did, cause I first wanted to know *why* they were helping me so much--I know it will sound weird, but that's the truth. The one Mg that is have is pyrrolidone carboxylate/aspartate. However Mg taurate would likely be much better for sleep, as taurine helps Mg's absorption.*
You've taken SSRIs before and they helped?
*I cannot say as I haven't tried any SSRI's yet, but I have some Paxil at home and it wass prescribed to me by Braverman.*
This was your diagnosis but before you went there your only concern was loss of libido?
*Of course there were other less obvious concerns like memory, attention, focus, but the main one was the libido.*
In general, what did you think of Dr. Braverman?
*So far, i think highly of him, but cannot say in any definate way until I have proof that his protocol works fine, but so far so good.*Don't hesitate to ask more questions.
Posted by JLx on November 22, 2005, at 9:02:05
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 21:05:02
I hope someone else chimes in on this thread for you.
I think magnesium may have helped you simply because it is involved in so many metabolic processes -- over 300. Specifically magnesium is needed to produce serotonin.
Magnesium helped my depression about 50-70%, which is no small thing. It completely relieved suicidal ideation, for instance. It also helped my dry skin, insomnia, and feet cramps. It also contributed to straightening out thyroid function and it also works with DHEA.
Magnesium aspartate is said to be contraindicated for depression, per George Eby's site, "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment", http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html which is where I got the idea to supplement magnesium. (This board was not in existence then.)
The reason mg aspartate is not advised is because it's excitable to the brain, but perhaps in your case it was effective for just that reason. I know I took a magnesium potassium aspartate combo many years ago and it was one of the few supplements I tried that made a definite impression -- I felt terrible! I had no idea why back then.
> *Honestly I don't know, but I'm not sure he'll keep me on it, as he ordered DHEA to be re-tested, but meanwhile he said to take it. At times, it appears that one can derive benefits from a given substance, even though there's no real physiological ned for it. But I'd prefer not to take DHEA if my levels are already high.*
Yeah, I don't blame you. I'm a woman, and too much DHEA gives me acne. It may also have contributed to some permanent hair loss according to Dr. Ray Sahelian's site and comments. http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html
> Those formulas AND medications? You'll have no idea what, if anything, works or doesn't work.
>
> *that's why I'm trying one substance at a time--this I hadn't mention in my first posting.*Ah, ok. Well, I'd certainly try the natural supplements first. I guess I can say that here, on the Alternative board. :) I don't take any meds any more and regret that I ever did as they didn't help and may have hurt.
> But you quit taking them? Have you tried magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate before bed?
>
> *I did, cause I first wanted to know *why* they were helping me so much--I know it will sound weird, but that's the truth. The one Mg that is have is pyrrolidone carboxylate/aspartate. However Mg taurate would likely be much better for sleep, as taurine helps Mg's absorption.*Taurine is also calming/modulating to neurotransmitters. For the most relaxation, mg glycinate is better, in my experience. I also take some extra glycine with it to sleep.
> You've taken SSRIs before and they helped?
>
> *I cannot say as I haven't tried any SSRI's yet, but I have some Paxil at home and it wass prescribed to me by Braverman.*I suggest you read up on it before you give it a whirl. You'll find a lot of info on the regular PB board.
> In general, what did you think of Dr. Braverman?
> *So far, i think highly of him, but cannot say in any definate way until I have proof that his protocol works fine, but so far so good.*Definitely keep us posted! I have not read his book yet, but have seen it mentioned several times here. As far as I can recall, you are the only one to post here to be actually treated by him.
JL
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 22, 2005, at 12:38:53
In reply to Re: Dr. Braverman » Marc Boucher, posted by JLx on November 22, 2005, at 9:02:05
> I hope someone else chimes in on this thread for you.
**Me too, as I trust this forum is a great place, with plenty of different experiences using supplements for specific psychological welfare.**
> I think magnesium may have helped you simply because it is involved in so many metabolic processes -- over 300. Specifically magnesium is needed to produce serotonin.**Indeed Mg is involved in a lot of enzymatic reactions--I've seen it tied (as mentioned in Dr. Braverman's book (The edge effect) to serotonin. I've also bumped into some study on Pubmed that linked to to Dopamine, Norepinephrne, serotonin ; http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=2880351&query_hl=2
> Magnesium helped my depression about 50-70%, which is no small thing. It completely relieved suicidal ideation, for instance. It also helped my dry skin, insomnia, and feet cramps. It also contributed to straightening out thyroid function and it also works with DHEA.**I'm glad to hear that, as suicidal ideation is serious--you must feel like so much better now...the difference must be like night and day. It's uplifting to hear success stories.**
>
> Magnesium aspartate is said to be contraindicated for depression, per George Eby's site, "Rapid Recovery From Depression Using Magnesium Treatment", http://www.coldcure.com/html/dep.html which is where I got the idea to supplement magnesium. (This board was not in existence then.)**Thanks for this interesting link--I wasn't aware of it, and I'll definately have a look at this site.**
>
> The reason mg aspartate is not advised is because it's excitable to the brain, but perhaps in your case it was effective for just that reason. I know I took a magnesium potassium aspartate combo many years ago and it was one of the few supplements I tried that made a definite impression -- I felt terrible! I had no idea why back then.**Again, this is very interesting to know. I'd heard about it, but it'd slipped my mind since then.**
> > *Honestly I don't know, but I'm not sure he'll keep me on it, as he ordered DHEA to be re-tested, but meanwhile he said to take it. At times, it appears that one can derive benefits from a given substance, even though there's no real physiological ned for it. But I'd prefer not to take DHEA if my levels are already high.*
>
> Yeah, I don't blame you. I'm a woman, and too much DHEA gives me acne. It may also have contributed to some permanent hair loss according to Dr. Ray Sahelian's site and comments. http://www.raysahelian.com/dhea.html**A friend of mine is an endocrinologist, with whom I've discussed my health issues for some time now, and his views on HRT is : only take HRT if your levels of a given hormone are below healthy range. Too much of a good thing is just like not enough.**
> > Those formulas AND medications? You'll have no idea what, if anything, works or doesn't work.
> >
> > *that's why I'm trying one substance at a time--this I hadn't mention in my first posting.*
>
> Ah, ok. Well, I'd certainly try the natural supplements first. I guess I can say that here, on the Alternative board. :) I don't take any meds any more and regret that I ever did as they didn't help and may have hurt.**I approve of the above comments--I find (but I could be mistaken) that once one starts on AD, it's pretty much a naever ending roller coaster, in that after some time, some AD lose their effectiveness, so one has to swtich to yet another AD, and often deal with the unpleasant withdrawal side effects. No doubt that some AD are needed depending on the specific psychologial issue at hand, but I too would stear clear of any of those in the event more natural treatments does it. Needless to say that AD medications being one of the most prescribed drugs at doctors office make for very large income to pharmaceutical companies, but again, some people really need those, so we can wrap up by saying that they're great nonetheless in some cases where more natural means fail to produce any results.**
>
> > But you quit taking them? Have you tried magnesium glycinate or magnesium taurate before bed?
> >
> > *I did, cause I first wanted to know *why* they were helping me so much--I know it will sound weird, but that's the truth. The one Mg that is have is pyrrolidone carboxylate/aspartate. However Mg taurate would likely be much better for sleep, as taurine helps Mg's absorption.*
>
> Taurine is also calming/modulating to neurotransmitters. For the most relaxation, mg glycinate is better, in my experience. I also take some extra glycine with it to sleep.**I'm glad to learn that--I took note of that.**
>
> > You've taken SSRIs before and they helped?
> >
> > *I cannot say as I haven't tried any SSRI's yet, but I have some Paxil at home and it wass prescribed to me by Braverman.*
>
> I suggest you read up on it before you give it a whirl. You'll find a lot of info on the regular PB board.**I'll sure do so--If I can avoid taking it or any other AD for that matter, I will, unless my life becomes unmanageable forcing me to get on it.**
>
> > In general, what did you think of Dr. Braverman?
> > *So far, i think highly of him, but cannot say in any definate way until I have proof that his protocol works fine, but so far so good.*
>
> Definitely keep us posted! I have not read his book yet, but have seen it mentioned several times here. As far as I can recall, you are the only one to post here to be actually treated by him.**About his book, I'd recommend it, however for those like me who wish to get deeper understanding of the workings of varous neurotransmitters, you're going to be disapointed--the book aims at mass audience, and uses simplifications of complex mechanism. Still the book really is a good read, I sure don't regret I bought it. I also have Healing anxiety and depression by Dr. Daniel Amen, which I like too. I'm planning to get that other book by Daniel Amen, that deals with ADD/ADHD specifically in order to educate myself more on what I've had--knowledge is power !**
IMPORTANT : something that I've noticed makes a remarkable difference in my ADHD symptoms is AOR'S Pronogenol-2, which contains grape seed extracts, grape skin extract, trans-resveratrol--it doesn't have to be AOR's, but since it is the one I take, I wanted to give an accurate description of what helps. It definately calms down the hyperactivity--I'm much more focused, centered, composed--it's a relief. Usually I feel pressure within to move, speak, etc...but on it, those symptoms simply go away. I also noticed that among the things that Dr. Braverman prescribed to me for my dysthymia and ADHD that vitamin E calms me down to some extent too (I use Total E from AOR). Vitamin D3 as well makes some difference on my mood--IIRC vitamin D is connected to serotonin through melatonin, but I'm saying this from memory only. It cost me close to 6000 to meet with Braverman, but so far, I think it was a good move, as I can see the diagnosis is accurate. My mother the other day after I questioned her about my early childhood days, told me that most teachers would call up my parents for meeting, cause they said I was incapable of finishing off anything that I would start doing, and was some procrastinator. I know I've been this way, but didn't recall that it was the same during childhood. It clearly points out ADD, in that it usually starts in childhood, and if IIRC roughly 75% of those children continue to have it into adulthood.**
**JLx: have you found other supplements to be quite worth the money in your depression ?**
Kind regards
Marc
>
> JL
>
>
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 22, 2005, at 17:21:12
In reply to Re: Dr. Braverman, posted by Marc Boucher on November 22, 2005, at 12:38:53
Further it appears that ADHD is not only due to low dopamine/NE availability, cause my DA is already high at 9.3 mV as evidenced by the BEAM I had at Pathmedical. My acetylcholine is 10% higher than normal. I know Ach is not very much involved here, but I wanted to mention it just the same what levels it's at.
My ADHD type (I still have to figure out which type it is from Dr. Amen's website)is not due to low DA, but low 5-HT and perhaps GABA as my GABA too is low--both GABA and 5-HT are my deficiencies. However I'm not yet clear on the DA connection with rehards to ADHD, as grape seeds helps me focus more, and what I've found regarding ADHD is that they might inhibit to breakdown (re-uptake) of dopamine and norepinephrine in certain regions of the brain--likely it could be the PFC (Pre-frontal cortex).
Marc
Posted by teejay on November 24, 2005, at 19:04:48
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 21:05:02
why on earth go to see a world renowned specialist and then fling out the window most of what he recommends?
In my opinion you should only start tinkering with the med regime IF you try it for a while and it seems not to be working, and even then I'd discuss it with Dr Bravermann.
Most of us could only DREAM of consultations with such experts yet you seem to treat his knowledge with a distinct lack of respect.
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 24, 2005, at 20:28:19
In reply to Not meaning to be rude but.......... » Marc Boucher, posted by teejay on November 24, 2005, at 19:04:48
> why on earth go to see a world renowned specialist and then fling out the window most of what he recommends?
**I totally get your draft Teejay, but I'm not totally throwing out the window most of what he recommends--it looks and sounds like this but it ain't so. A friend of mine told me the same you did by the way. You could probably better understand what I'm telling you, IF you'd met with Braverman--I know the guy is very knowledgeable, BUT like many doctors, he sometimes fail to explain why he does this or that, and I prefer being given a brief explanation for whatever someone suggest me to take--you should understand that part even if you haven't met with the guy. See for instance, I've complained to Dr. Braverman that my sex drive was very very low and at times inexistant, so much so that he ordered an endocrinology panel to be done, and guess what ?? My LH, and FSH are at the lowest end of the range. I'm still awaiting more hormone test result namely : SHBG, TT, FT, DHEA-S. No wonder my sex drive has been low for a long time now. But you see, had I not pushed or insisted on having further testing, I wouldn't be there. Don't get me wrong, if I went to see Dr. Braverman it's cause I've known about him quite a bit, and trust the guy more than you may think. I'm still very much happy I met with him and continue to have follow-ups with him, it's just that I have to undertand the basis for what he prescribes to me, and so far i've read upon those supplements and drugs, and they all make perfect sense, aside from the DHEA. My DHEA level is already elevated, so he'll prolly take me off of it. Plus Follow-ups are a minimum of 150 usd, and I live in Canada, so it means cad to me, thus more money, and money doesn't grow on trees.**
>
> In my opinion you should only start tinkering with the med regime IF you try it for a while and it seems not to be working, and even then I'd discuss it with Dr Bravermann.**I can't argue with that, as it makes sense. **
>
> Most of us could only DREAM of consultations with such experts yet you seem to treat his knowledge with a distinct lack of respect.**I wouldn't go that far, please don't jump to any conclusions, before you have all the facts, plus you know nothing about me, so let's take it one step at a time. I don't mind discussing my health issues, and when I can I'm happy to help out, and that's as honest as can be here, BUT I don't wish to be told off so to speak--that is not what I registered to that forum for. Let's keep things peaceful. One more thing you should take into account is, I posted the protocol Dr. Braverman gave me, which may provide you with interesting supplements for dysthymia--ADHD. I understand that my case isn't someome else's, but nonetheless it could prove to be helpful--I didn't mind sharing his protocol although I paid a lot to get it, as i thought to myself that could help others, so again please, I'd appreciate that you take it easy--again i come in peace and I'm not here to argue and fight with anyone. If I find this place to be so, then I'll definately buzz off.**
Marc
>
>
Posted by Declan on November 24, 2005, at 22:13:36
In reply to Re: Not meaning to be rude but.........., posted by Marc Boucher on November 24, 2005, at 20:28:19
Hey Marc, that cernilton might boost your sex drive, I think it's supposed to.
Declan
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 24, 2005, at 22:17:00
In reply to Cernilton, posted by Declan on November 24, 2005, at 22:13:36
> Hey Marc, that cernilton might boost your sex drive, I think it's supposed to.
> Declan**Thank you Declan--this helps me understand why he possibly prescribed it to me. The other day I phone so as to know whether they'd checked for PSA or something, and they told me they didn't.**
Marc
Posted by teejay on November 25, 2005, at 8:17:49
In reply to Re: Not meaning to be rude but.........., posted by Marc Boucher on November 24, 2005, at 20:28:19
I know where you are coming from marc, I'm not a big fan of doctors myself and agree they are generally hopeless at explaining themselves to patients.
I didnt mean to be so heavy on you, so dont stop posting, I only said what I said out of genuine concern that YOU do the right thing for YOU :-)
With regard tot he DHEA thing......MAYBE he feels the other supps may deplete your DHEA levels too much and hence feels your body will need a bit of additional DHEA to stop it swinging from too much to too little? Just a theory.
I've read some of bravermanns work, and am keen to hear how you get on with his recommendations if you are willing to post em up.
TJ
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 25, 2005, at 10:04:59
In reply to Re: Not meaning to be rude but.........., posted by teejay on November 25, 2005, at 8:17:49
It's ok Teejay--this is the kind of misunderstanding that happen quite often on discussion boards. I definately won't hold a grudge over that, and yes I'll post any developement with regards to Braverman's protocol.
What worries much a tad right now are those partial blood test results (as I'm expecting more test to get in) for LH and FSH
LH 2 Ref. range for men (2-9 U/L)
FSH 2 Ref. range for men (2-12 U/L)According to that Ref range, i cannot get any lower without falling off the chart--I fear what might happen from now, yet I know it means more testing for sure. I do not really feel physically bad, BUT my sex drive sure isn't high.
Marc
Posted by Declan on November 25, 2005, at 11:49:39
In reply to I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 15:23:03
Marc, maybe if you can get your system into balance your sex drive will improve as a sign that you are just better off generally. Tryptophan might perhaps improve your sex drive by improving your sleep patterns.
Paxil might nor do much for your sex drive as such, but if it affects you favourably in a general way that may not matter. The Paxil dose is lowish so there's that much less chance of it damaging you
Why do you think Braverman doesn't use NE as one of his categories? Is it (for him) a subsection of dopamine? Linkadge said something about a seesaw balance between NE and Acetylcholine, so I wondered whether your NE levels were low.
Yeah and uh, the penile vascular study...like, how do they do it? I've never heard of it, but now that I have I'm interested. Something like a mammogram?
Declan
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 25, 2005, at 12:24:41
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Declan on November 25, 2005, at 11:49:39
> Marc, maybe if you can get your system into balance your sex drive will improve as a sign that you are just better off generally. Tryptophan might perhaps improve your sex drive by improving your sleep patterns.
**Interesting that you bring up sleep patterns and link it to better sex drive. In doctor Braverman's book : The edge effect, he says that serotonin is like a car's alternator, in that it recharges one's brain. He says that by serotonin deficiency throws off the balance of other neurotransmitters--one looses it's dopamine edge etc..so sleep appears to be MOST important in brain health. I recall that when I was discussing with him in his offcice, he said to me : *Marc, your brain is fried, but the good news is there's a 90% chance you're going to recover.*
What puzzles me though is that I constantly read that serotonin kills libido, and dopamine promotes it--in my case for instance Deprenyl TOTALLY killed what little sex drive was left, and tryptophan and/or 5-HTP really helps it--especially 5-HTP. Magnesium, and zinc make quite a difference in the sex drive btw--at least in my case--B6 and theanine help me much WRT libido as well. I'd be interested in knowing more about serotonin improving libido through better sleeping patterns--I like the juicy details.
>
> Paxil might nor do much for your sex drive as such, but if it affects you favourably in a general way that may not matter. The Paxil dose is lowish so there's that much less chance of it damaging you**Yep, the dosage is on the low side--I agree that it shouldn't harm me much, however I cannot help but wonder why he prescribed Paxil, since I kept complaining about a very low sex drive ? Perhaps I should consider that Paxil might provide improvement in my overall physical condition, which would impact libido indirectly.**
>
> Why do you think Braverman doesn't use NE as one of his categories? Is it (for him) a subsection of dopamine? Linkadge said something about a seesaw balance between NE and Acetylcholine, so I wondered whether your NE levels were low.**Funny that you ask that about NE--I too have wondered about it, but I honestly don't know why he diddn't include it as a fifth neurotransmitter in his book. I think that he must see DA and NE as walking side by side if you will, cause he uses pharmaceutical drugs that increase NE. What is the seesaw relationship between NE and Ach that you mentioned above ? I'd like to know more about that, as I'm not enlightened about that very relationship.**
>
> Yeah and uh, the penile vascular study...like, how do they do it? I've never heard of it, but now that I have I'm interested. Something like a mammogram?**The penile vascular study, uh well, I sure don't like that kind of examination, but now I know that blood flow in my willy is A ok. It's quite a simple procedure : The technician had me lie down on the DXA scan table (bone and adiposity scanning machine) since it was the nearest one--the procedure goes like this : you lie on your back, the technician gave me a velcro cuff to put around the base of my penis (I only had to unzip my pants--no need to get nacked)which I did myself(the tecnician doesn't get to touch your penis, which is great to me)--once you got that cuff set up, he then gives you a light-weight plastic clamp--one end of the clamp harbors a sensor, so at first you put the sensor-side of the clamp up, then he performs a reading, then he has you flip it around to get the underside of the glans penis, and does another reading--the whole thing takes a maximum of 10 muinutes. Of course you have to pull down on the foreskin before you can position the clamp. I forgot to mention that the velcro cuff in inflatable, so when both the clamp and velcro cuff are in place, that technician inflates the cuff as part of the penile vascularity reading. I hope it helps. I knew my penis had no vascular issue going, cause when my sex drive is up, my penis inflates like magic, but now I got confirmation of it.**
**I wonder whether Dysthymia can lower LH and FSH ? I found indiction that major depression does, but not in Dysthymia.**
Have a good day there Declan
Marc
>
> Declan
>
Posted by Declan on November 25, 2005, at 13:04:20
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 25, 2005, at 12:24:41
My sleeping patterns are shot (early morning wakeing) and my nutritional doctor says to take 5htp in the afternoon. I'm not sure how much to take, but have taken 200mg and not noticed improvement. I don't want to take more than that and I always take 100mg. I dunno, but sleep's so important to general health, it flows into feeling decent and relaxed. (It can be very dispiriting, trying to think about this feeling half brain dead.)
I'm curious about your experience with deprenyl. Someone else (Blueberry?) said it killed his sex drive. How much were you taking? (It'd be a laugh if the 1mg/d I take caused my early morning wakeing.)
From the sound of it you respond well to seratogenic things, or at least the 5htp improves your libido. How much of that do you take?
As for the seesaw relationship between Ach and NE, Link said that there was something known as the Ach-NE axis, which is why, he was saying, Ach enhancing smart drugs can worsen depression.
Declan
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 25, 2005, at 14:24:20
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD. » Marc Boucher, posted by Declan on November 25, 2005, at 13:04:20
> My sleeping patterns are shot (early morning wakeing) and my nutritional doctor says to take 5htp in the afternoon. I'm not sure how much to take, but have taken 200mg and not noticed improvement. I don't want to take more than that and I always take 100mg. I dunno, but sleep's so important to general health, it flows into feeling decent and relaxed. (It can be very dispiriting, trying to think about this feeling half brain dead.)
**I'd overlooked sleep for many years, and it appears part of what I've suffered from if not the totality of it is due to poor sleeping patterns. As for 5-HTP, I tend to err on the side of caution, as I've bumped into some texts that hypothesized that a large portion of the 5-HTP can convert to serotonin outside the brain, and that apparently can cause heart valves problems. However, I do not know if this is truly valid, but still I've kept that in mind since reading it.** As far as I'm concerned 50-100 Mg of 5-HTP does the trick--but we're all different.**
>
> I'm curious about your experience with deprenyl. Someone else (Blueberry?) said it killed his sex drive. How much were you taking? (It'd be a laugh if the 1mg/d I take caused my early morning wakeing.)I don't recall who posted about having sexual side-effects out of using Deprenyl, but I responded to his posting days ago--his name slips my mind. Before I tell you what dosages of DPR I used, I'll tell you about the actual experience with DPR. I'd bought it to help with the low sex drive (It was Selegiline HCI from Antiaging systems)which came in 5 Mg pills. At first I used half a tablet, but prior to using the DPR I'd some sex drive left, although it was very very low, but 30 minutes after I swallowed 2.5 Mg of DPR I noticed that what little sex drive was there, had vanished into thin air. I tehn thought it could simply be bad luck, and decided to try it again days afterwards, but the same thing happened EACH AND EVERY TIME so I waited about 2 weeks and gave it another whirl, but this time I used 5 Mg, and there for about 5 minutes i could feel a revving up of the sex drive, but it simply didn't last. I reproduced that same experience many times, and the same happened all the time, that is, my sex drive really plumetted (considering it was really really low to begin with). I'm 33 years old male, and my girlfriend is 29--when I gave 2.5 Mg of DPR to my girlfriend I can tell you that each and everytime her sex drive went into high gear--she felt more like having sex and there was an increase in sensations felt, thus contributing to heigthening her sex drive even more. DPR was a sheer success with the girlfriend, but with me nothing happened. However one point that I want to let you know is, I've always been the nervous type of guy, thus HYPERACTIVE, and my girlfriend is the PLACId type. I hypothesized that in PLACID people stimulating substances might have a positive effect, whereas in OVERACTIVE people they'd benefit more calming substances--this is what's happening in my case at least. So in the end, I stopped the DPR, and after I stopped it I started getting severe panic attacks, proabaly cause I went cold turkey, which I REALLY shouldn't have done.**
>
> From the sound of it you respond well to seratogenic things, or at least the 5htp improves your libido. How much of that do you take?** Anywhere from 50 Mg to 100 Mg (I've never been above 100 Mg/day) sure does the trick--I've noticed that 5-HTP tends to make me agitated a bit, but this may subside after some time though.**
>
> As for the seesaw relationship between Ach and NE, Link said that there was something known as the Ach-NE axis, which is why, he was saying, Ach enhancing smart drugs can worsen depression.**Good to know that--I didn't know about that at all.**
**If you have any other questions, don't hesitate, I feel this is how we can help one another, bu digging up some more into the fine details. If you have experience to relate WRT to libido and substances that you found helped you or anything along that line, let me know.**
Take care
Marc
>
> Declan
Posted by verne on November 26, 2005, at 19:59:11
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 25, 2005, at 14:24:20
I've tried lots of herbs and supplements and found vitamin E best for improving all aspects of libido from drive to performance. I take a natural mixed tocopherols called E-400 by NOW.
I usually have trouble with vitamin E but this variety seems to be "cleaner". Sometimes the ceiling nearly spins and I get shaky when I take too much E. Since I suffer from anxiety and high blood pressure I have to be careful.
I'm currently taking only inderal LA 60mgs for high blood pressure and anxiety. Occasionally I take a few mgs of cymbalta, which at low doses increases libido but at prescribed doses (40mgs per day) makes me anorgasmic. Yet small amounts of cymbalta puts the kama in the kamasutra, making for long intense orgasms.
I've tried lots of "aphrodisiacs" like ginseng and various plants and tree bark from the Amazon. Most have too much of a body load. It's like peyote or mushrooms - you get high and feel like crap at the same time.
Pot is the best aphrodisiac, but until I move to a pot-friendly state, I'll settle for vitamin E and cymbalta. I guess I need to move to Holland.
Thanks for all the info from your Dr's visit. That's very generous and thoughtful of you.
Verne
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 26, 2005, at 22:53:55
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD. » Marc Boucher, posted by verne on November 26, 2005, at 19:59:11
> I've tried lots of herbs and supplements and found vitamin E best for improving all aspects of libido from drive to performance. I take a natural mixed tocopherols called E-400 by NOW.
**That's interesting--how much a day do you use to get that effect ? Further, thanks for sharing that info with me/us.**
>
> I'm currently taking only inderal LA 60mgs for high blood pressure and anxiety. Occasionally I take a few mgs of cymbalta, which at low doses increases libido but at prescribed doses (40mgs per day) makes me anorgasmic. Yet small amounts of cymbalta puts the kama in the kamasutra, making for long intense orgasms.**Sure sounds like fun there :-)**
>
> I've tried lots of "aphrodisiacs" like ginseng and various plants and tree bark from the Amazon. Most have too much of a body load. It's like peyote or mushrooms - you get high and feel like crap at the same time.
>
> Pot is the best aphrodisiac, but until I move to a pot-friendly state, I'll settle for vitamin E and cymbalta. I guess I need to move to Holland.**Holland would sure be the place for pot smoking :-)**
>
> Thanks for all the info from your Dr's visit. That's very generous and thoughtful of you.**You're quite welcome--I'm the kind of guy that if I can help others through those accounts and info that I share on this forum or others, then all the better. Life is short, and we all want to be happy and successful, whoever we are. I'm beginning to feel very well from Dr. Braverman's protocol, for about 3 days now, during the day my energy is really soaring, my memory is sharper, my libido is near what it used to be. I'll definately keep you updated--again if some happen to derive valuable information from my postings, then so much the better.
**Marc**
>
> Verne
Posted by verne on November 26, 2005, at 23:06:33
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 26, 2005, at 22:53:55
I usually take 400mgs at a time. I notice the effects about 4-6 hours later. I often forget I've taken it but notice the tell-tale signs later.
I've taken 800-1200 mgs with even better results but until I get my blood pressure back to normal I take 400mgs about every other day.
Verne
Posted by Marc Boucher on November 29, 2005, at 16:47:49
In reply to Vitamin E » Marc Boucher, posted by verne on November 26, 2005, at 23:06:33
I'd like to know whether anyone knows if low LH and FSH can be tied to Dysthymia ?
LH 2 Ref. range for men (2-9 U/L)
FSH 2 '' '' '' '' (2-12 U/L)My libido has improved a bit, but it's still on the low side. Low libido can definately be tied to Dysthymia, however I don't know if low LH/FSH can be a result of Dysthymia ? I've read that in major depression LH pulses can be less strong, but nothing about LH/FSH and Dysthymia.
Marc
Posted by inmostleaf on February 9, 2009, at 13:16:43
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by Marc Boucher on November 21, 2005, at 21:05:02
What a BS diagnosis, no offense to you, but ADHD (as in attention-deficity hyperactivity disorder) and dysthymia are opposites.
How can one be "hyperactive" AND "hypoactive" - which dysthymics are in nature.
Posted by Marc Boucher on February 9, 2009, at 17:03:30
In reply to Re: I was diagnosed with Dysthymia and ADHD., posted by inmostleaf on February 9, 2009, at 13:16:43
> What a BS diagnosis, no offense to you, but ADHD (as in attention-deficity hyperactivity disorder) and dysthymia are opposites.
>
> How can one be "hyperactive" AND "hypoactive" - which dysthymics are in nature.
>
>Is it common for those suffering with ADHD to have had a low sex drive for 10 years, where as it used to be more than normal before ?
I have had a low to no sex drive over the last 10 years--it'S sure is a long time. I'm 36 now. I have have a hard time fast reading and paying full attention to what the teacher says in college--doing a bachelor of nursing science degree.
Of course I cannot expect to get an accurate Dx online, but still, I'd like to hear what you have to say here regarding issues I brought up in the above paragraph.
This is the end of the thread.
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