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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by TamaraJ on September 28, 2005, at 22:25:19
In reply to ah! i forgot to check this! » TamaraJ, posted by iforgotmypassword on September 28, 2005, at 8:16:10
Hi there!
Here are the Canadian on-line supplement stores I have used and have found to be reliable and reasonable.
http://www.canadianvitaminshop.com/
http://www.feelgreatsupplements.ca/
http://home.primus.ca/~brickell/index.html
(Note: The website does not indicate a very big selection. However, if you call the 1-888 number, you can speak with Mary and ask her if she can get what you are looking for from her supplier. This is the only place in Canada I have been able to get Acetyl L-Carnitine. She can also get DL-Phenylalanine as well as DHEA and Pregnenolone, but the minimum dose is 25mg, which I find is too high.)
http://www.naturesfare.com/index.cfm
(I have purchased DL-Pheylalanine from them, if I remember correctly. I don't think it appears on the website, but you can e-mail them to confirm and see if it can be added to an order.)
http://www.ottway.com/
http://www.canadian-wholesale-direct.com/
Tamara
> i'd love to know the sources! thank you so much! i think my babblemail thing is set up... or maybe i should mail you as this is from a while ago.
Posted by Optimist on September 30, 2005, at 11:47:51
In reply to i found a source of DLPA in ottawa but they wont.., posted by iforgotmypassword on September 16, 2005, at 9:14:20
I'm picking up some DLPA up today in Oakville(Trafalgar and Dundas) at a supplement store called Natures Source. They have a website natures-source.com. I have also bought Acetyl-L-Carnitine there as well. They have many other hard to get supplements that I can't find anywhere where I live (Niagara Region), like Sulbutiamine, TMG, molybdenum, P-5-P, thymus gland extract, etc...
The stuff I'm getting is 60 500mg caps for $30. I'm not sure of the company name. I'll have to get back to you on that.
I'm combining the DLPA with 5mg of Selegiline that my pdoc prescribed for me yesterday. It will be my first time on either.
Brian
> say what company they get it from (or who makes it)... she said that it was just a source they had and that she couldnt divulge... ??? wierd? whats all this wierdness surrounding DLPA?? and this pharmacy didnt seem really shady or anything... it's called "Ottawa Natural Clinic Pharmacy"... and it was $50 for 60 500mg tabs!!! ???!!? just the L-phenylalanine variant was $10 for at least as many... this is so strange. i asked him why i was having so much trouble tracking down DLPA, and he just said that he wasnt suprised. and i mentioned that other people in the states seem to be able to find it very readily. he said that that made sense and for whatever reason it just isnt distributed widely in canada... ???? does anyone have any details on this? this is so wierd.
Posted by KaraS on September 30, 2005, at 20:17:19
In reply to Re: DLPA in Oakville... » iforgotmypassword, posted by Optimist on September 30, 2005, at 11:47:51
> I'm picking up some DLPA up today in Oakville(Trafalgar and Dundas) at a supplement store called Natures Source. They have a website natures-source.com. I have also bought Acetyl-L-Carnitine there as well. They have many other hard to get supplements that I can't find anywhere where I live (Niagara Region), like Sulbutiamine, TMG, molybdenum, P-5-P, thymus gland extract, etc...
>
> The stuff I'm getting is 60 500mg caps for $30. I'm not sure of the company name. I'll have to get back to you on that.
>
> I'm combining the DLPA with 5mg of Selegiline that my pdoc prescribed for me yesterday. It will be my first time on either.
>
> Brian
>
> > say what company they get it from (or who makes it)... she said that it was just a source they had and that she couldnt divulge... ??? wierd? whats all this wierdness surrounding DLPA?? and this pharmacy didnt seem really shady or anything... it's called "Ottawa Natural Clinic Pharmacy"... and it was $50 for 60 500mg tabs!!! ???!!? just the L-phenylalanine variant was $10 for at least as many... this is so strange. i asked him why i was having so much trouble tracking down DLPA, and he just said that he wasnt suprised. and i mentioned that other people in the states seem to be able to find it very readily. he said that that made sense and for whatever reason it just isnt distributed widely in canada... ???? does anyone have any details on this? this is so wierd.
>
>Hi Brian,
Nice to see you back here.
Is the selegiline plus DLPA in addition to the Parnate or instead of? If it's instead of, why did you go off of Parnate? I thought you were doing so well on it.
Kara
Posted by Optimist on October 2, 2005, at 21:36:49
In reply to Re: DLPA in Oakville... » Optimist, posted by KaraS on September 30, 2005, at 20:17:19
Thanks Kara, it's been awhile. :)
The Selegiline plus DLPA is instead of the Parnate. I was doing quite well with the Parnate for a few weeks then seemed to have made a sharp downturn once may showed up. The downturn seemed to coincide with the seasonal allergies that I always seem to get every summer(may-august). That's also when I tend to get depressed, as well as the winter(november-february). Anti-histamines seem to help with my summer depressions for whatever reason. I've read a few theories on why this may be true, although they do not relieve my depressions fully by any means.
I also seemed to feel more flat when taking the parnate and was starting to have some sexual dysfunction(libido problems). It also seemed to be exacerbating my hypoglycemia which is a known side effect. Hypoglycemia tends to make me feel much worse so I decided to go off the parnate. I actually went on it a number of times throughout the summer due to wanting relief from my depression, but then going off it due to the hypoglycemia primarily.
I tend to be doing quite well now, even before the selegiline. September, and especially october seem to be good months for me. I don't feel I need any antidepressants now, but it worries me as november approaches. I know I usually feel like I've been hit by a train early november.
I'm seriously considering lithium at this point as I am pretty certain I have some kind of softer bipolar features, either cyclothymia, or some kind of cyclical depression.
The reason I decided upon selegiline and DLPA, is because I seem to get the most antidepressant response from a herb called Vitex. It's known to be a dopamine agonist, but it tends to poop out after awhile for me. I'm hoping that the selegiline will be able to sustain the type of dopamine response I am looking for. Vitex mostly helps me with energy, self-confidence, and sexual drive, as well as general motivation.
Caffeine is also a great antidepressant for me, but imperfect in a number of ways due to it's tolerance and energy and mood fluctuations it seems to cause me.
After taking the selegiline and DLPA the past couple days I have noticed an increase in anxiety, especially in social situations. I had to leave the bar early last night due to finding it too difficult to relax and stop thinking too much regarding what I was going to say, and concentrating too much on breathing deeply to calm down.
I don't think it's the selegiline so much as the DLPA, since I've had similar problems with tyrosine in the past. I took 2 grams of DLPA yesterday which may have been too much. Today I experimented with taking 5-HTP instead and I seem to feel better in terms of less anxiety. I'll have to play around with it a little to see what works best. I think I'll settle for 5mg of selegiline though, as I am not too concerned with playing around with the dosage. If I don't feel much from it I doubt I'll raise it. Regardless it seems like a good long term drug in terms of cognitive health, life-extension, etc... so I don't think it's something I'll readily abandon.
I still think that Parnate is a great AD. I also think that I probably would have felt good last april without the Parnate as it's a good time for me anyways, and AD's in general don't seem to prevent me from falling in to depressions during certain times of the year. I'll most likely start lithium therapy by the end of the month, probably starting with a lower dose and going from there.
Hope everything is going well with you.
Brian
> Hi Brian,
>
> Nice to see you back here.
>
> Is the selegiline plus DLPA in addition to the Parnate or instead of? If it's instead of, why did you go off of Parnate? I thought you were doing so well on it.
>
> Kara
Posted by ed_uk on October 3, 2005, at 14:14:34
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... Ed_uk » KaraS, posted by Optimist on October 2, 2005, at 21:36:49
Hi Brian :-)
Have you considered Lamictal?
~Ed
Posted by Optimist on October 4, 2005, at 8:52:52
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... Ed_uk » Optimist, posted by ed_uk on October 3, 2005, at 14:14:34
I've already tried it already, up to 100mg. I had headaches the first couple months, and terrible cognitive dysfunction(memory, foggy headedness). I almost felt retarded on the stuff. :)
So how have you been doing lately Ed? It's been awhile since we've talked. What's current therapies are you are you on at the moment?
Brian
> Hi Brian :-)
>
> Have you considered Lamictal?
>
> ~Ed
Posted by ed_uk on October 4, 2005, at 15:46:27
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... » ed_uk, posted by Optimist on October 4, 2005, at 8:52:52
Hi!
I'm on citalopram 60mg for anxiety. I sometimes take 25mg amitriptyline or 7.5mg mirtazapine for sleep.
I'm working in a pharmacy at the moment. I decided not to return to university this year. I might return next year but I'm not sure yet. University makes me depressed! I don't have enough motivation to study!
Kind regards
~ed
Posted by Optimist on October 5, 2005, at 1:34:25
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... » Optimist, posted by ed_uk on October 4, 2005, at 15:46:27
Hey Ed!
I know how you feel regarding university. It took me 9 years to complete a 3 year degree. I kept dropping out and switching programs, taking years off, etc... It can be tough.
How's your current cocktail working for you?
Brian
> Hi!
>
> I'm on citalopram 60mg for anxiety. I sometimes take 25mg amitriptyline or 7.5mg mirtazapine for sleep.
>
> I'm working in a pharmacy at the moment. I decided not to return to university this year. I might return next year but I'm not sure yet. University makes me depressed! I don't have enough motivation to study!
>
> Kind regards
>
> ~ed
Posted by KaraS on October 6, 2005, at 21:05:04
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... Ed_uk » KaraS, posted by Optimist on October 2, 2005, at 21:36:49
> Thanks Kara, it's been awhile. :)
> The Selegiline plus DLPA is instead of the Parnate. I was doing quite well with the Parnate for a few weeks then seemed to have made a sharp downturn once may showed up. The downturn seemed to coincide with the seasonal allergies that I always seem to get every summer(may-august). That's also when I tend to get depressed, as well as the winter(november-february). Anti-histamines seem to help with my summer depressions for whatever reason. I've read a few theories on why this may be true, although they do not relieve my depressions fully by any means.
Sorry to hear that. It's like we're trying to hit a moving target sometimes when treating depression. There have been a lot of posts here on inflammation and depression. I'm sure there's something to it.
> I also seemed to feel more flat when taking the parnate and was starting to have some sexual dysfunction(libido problems). It also seemed to be exacerbating my hypoglycemia which is a known side effect. Hypoglycemia tends to make me feel much worse so I decided to go off the parnate. I actually went on it a number of times throughout the summer due to wanting relief from my depression, but then going off it due to the hypoglycemia primarily.
Guess it's just not the medicine for you then. I have hypoglycemia as well so I would probably have that same problem with Parnate.
> I tend to be doing quite well now, even before the selegiline. September, and especially october seem to be good months for me. I don't feel I need any antidepressants now, but it worries me as november approaches. I know I usually feel like I've been hit by a train early november.
>
> I'm seriously considering lithium at this point as I am pretty certain I have some kind of softer bipolar features, either cyclothymia, or some kind of cyclical depression.Certainly sounds like a cyclical thing happening especially if it's that regular. The trouble is sorting out the cycles from the allergies I imagine. I would be interested to hear whether lithium helps you.
> The reason I decided upon selegiline and DLPA, is because I seem to get the most antidepressant response from a herb called Vitex. It's known to be a dopamine agonist, but it tends to poop out after awhile for me. I'm hoping that the selegiline will be able to sustain the type of dopamine response I am looking for. Vitex mostly helps me with energy, self-confidence, and sexual drive, as well as general motivation.
Yes, I remember you mentioning Vitex before. Maybe I should try it though dopaminergics tend to sedate me unfortunately.
> Caffeine is also a great antidepressant for me, but imperfect in a number of ways due to it's tolerance and energy and mood fluctuations it seems to cause me.
Not to mention that it can also aggrivate hypoglycemia and cause jitteriness. Still, it's the only thing that has ever helped me with energy and motivation.
> After taking the selegiline and DLPA the past couple days I have noticed an increase in anxiety, especially in social situations. I had to leave the bar early last night due to finding it too difficult to relax and stop thinking too much regarding what I was going to say, and concentrating too much on breathing deeply to calm down.
It can be activating for most people. You'd probably have to take something else with it for the anxiety. Any more luck with it since your last message here?> I don't think it's the selegiline so much as the DLPA, since I've had similar problems with tyrosine in the past. I took 2 grams of DLPA yesterday which may have been too much. Today I experimented with taking 5-HTP instead and I seem to feel better in terms of less anxiety. I'll have to play around with it a little to see what works best. I think I'll settle for 5mg of selegiline though, as I am not too concerned with playing around with the dosage. If I don't feel much from it I doubt I'll raise it. Regardless it seems like a good long term drug in terms of cognitive health, life-extension, etc... so I don't think it's something I'll readily abandon.
Has lowering DLPA helped? Maybe the patch (if it ever comes out) would be good for you although maybe it would cause some of the same problems as Parnate?
> I still think that Parnate is a great AD. I also think that I probably would have felt good last april without the Parnate as it's a good time for me anyways, and AD's in general don't seem to prevent me from falling in to depressions during certain times of the year. I'll most likely start lithium therapy by the end of the month, probably starting with a lower dose and going from there.
I may end up having to do that as well. We'll see. I haven't tried Lamictal yet though.
> Hope everything is going well with you.
Thanks. It's not great but I'm working on it. :)
Kara
Posted by ed_uk on October 7, 2005, at 14:53:19
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months » Optimist, posted by KaraS on October 6, 2005, at 21:05:04
Hi K
What drugs/doses are you on at the moment? Are they helping?
~Ed
Posted by ed_uk on October 7, 2005, at 14:54:43
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months... » ed_uk, posted by Optimist on October 5, 2005, at 1:34:25
Hi Opt!
Citalopram 60mg is helping my anxiety but I'd like to increase the dose to 80-100mg because I'm still having some 'breakthrough' anxiety issues.
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 3:15:39
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on October 7, 2005, at 14:53:19
> Hi K
>
> What drugs/doses are you on at the moment? Are they helping?
>
> ~Ed
Hi Ed,I miss our chats. I've been taking the beta blockers regularly, 12.5 mg. doxepin regularly and 5 mg. of Dexedrine not as regularly. The beta blockers prevent the spikes in pulse rate which I usually like but they haven't made one bit of difference in my depression and they haven't eliminated the anxiety either. (If I try to drop the doxepin the anxiety comes back big time.) The one thing I don't like about the atenolol is that it prevents coffee from waking me up and energizing me. The Dexedrine provides a nice calming feeling but no help for concentration or for motivation. I'm a freak. I'm so bummed.
Now I'm working on increasing my magnesium and vitamin D intake.
How are you doing?
K
Posted by ed_uk on October 8, 2005, at 12:01:31
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 3:15:39
Hi K,
>I miss our chats.
Me too. I haven't been spending as long on the computer lately because I've been working 6 days a week. I still visit babble daily though :-) I'm doing ok but have been having some anxiety lately. I'd like to increase my citalopram to 80-100mg.
>12.5 mg doxepin
Is that the best dose for you? Does it acheive the optimum balance between the 'fogginess' of high doses and the reduced anxiolytic effect of low doses?
In general, doxepin should be taken at approximately the same time each day. 9.30pm is often a good time.
>The beta blockers prevent the spikes in pulse rate which I usually like but they haven't made one bit of difference in my depression and they haven't eliminated the anxiety either.
Atenolol is essentially a cardiovascular drug. It doesn't generally have any beneficial psych effects apart from the control of tachycardia, palpitations and chest 'discomfort'.
Are you still taking atenolol 12.5mg?
>The Dexedrine provides a nice calming feeling but no help for concentration or for motivation. I'm a freak. I'm so bummed.
You really need to try taking Dexedrine at a range of doses. 5mg might not be enough. Stimulants can have qualitatively different effects at different doses.
Ed xx
Posted by Optimist on October 8, 2005, at 12:19:55
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months » Optimist, posted by KaraS on October 6, 2005, at 21:05:04
Hi Kara and Ed,
I've been playing around a bit with the DLPA and 5-HTP dosages, trying to find a middle ground. I do notice myself being more irritable with the DLPA. I'm not noticing a whole lot greater amount of energy and motivation though really. Caffeine seems to be much more efficatious in that regard.
I'm also trying to cut down my caffeine intake. I've been taking upwards of 800mg a day, usually 400mg bid, in morning and late afternoon/after dinner. It's wonderful for my depression and motivation/energy, but I think it's a "robbing Paul to pay Peter" type process. I have a feeling that's it's contributing to my problems over the long term. It's the same with amphetamines. It's just difficult to get off it when I'm so dependent on it to function.
Selegiline 5mg
DLPA 1000mg - 2000mg per day(earlier in day)
5-HTP 100mg - 200mg per day(mostly in evening)Brian
Posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 14:21:49
In reply to Re: Parnate to Selegiline, last 5 months » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on October 8, 2005, at 12:01:31
> Hi Ed,
>
> Me too. I haven't been spending as long on the computer lately because I've been working 6 days a week. I still visit babble daily though :-) I'm doing ok but have been having some anxiety lately. I'd like to increase my citalopram to 80-100mg.
Would that dosage make you too lazy or complacent? Are you still enjoying the work?
> >12.5 mg doxepin
>
> Is that the best dose for you? Does it acheive the optimum balance between the 'fogginess' of high doses and the reduced anxiolytic effect of low doses?
I really need to go to 25 mg. It helps with the depression. 12.5 mg. just covers anxiety in my usual circumstances. I don't have energy or desire to have conversations until I get to 25 mg. I need the increase to help me sleep as well. I haven't wanted to increase because of the Dexedrine since I"ll probably be increasing that dosage as well.
> In general, doxepin should be taken at approximately the same time each day. 9.30pm is often a good time.
Yeah, I try to take it within 2 hours of the last time I took it. Going for an earlier time is better though. I think I'll gradually take it earlier in the evening.
> >The beta blockers prevent the spikes in pulse rate which I usually like but they haven't made one bit of difference in my depression and they haven't eliminated the anxiety either.
>
> Atenolol is essentially a cardiovascular drug. It doesn't generally have any beneficial psych effects apart from the control of tachycardia, palpitations and chest 'discomfort'.
That certainly has been my experience. I do know of someone else he put on atenolol who is doing better because of decreased anxiety but I don't know any more than that about him.
> Are you still taking atenolol 12.5mg?Yes. 6.25 mg. twice a day. I've had to wake up early and function on a temporary job the last few days so I've only taken it once a day. That way coffee can help me wake up in the morning. Counter-productive I know but I needed that caffeine boost.
> >The Dexedrine provides a nice calming feeling but no help for concentration or for motivation. I'm a freak. I'm so bummed.
>
> You really need to try taking Dexedrine at a range of doses. 5mg might not be enough. Stimulants can have qualitatively different effects at different doses.
Yeah, I guess that's the next step. I'm not optimistic though. Would increasing the doxepin to 25 mg. be dangerous with more Dexedrine (assuming that I take the atenolol religiously)? Might Desoxyn work where Dexedrine hasn't? I doubt it but just thought I'd get your opinion.Kara
xxx
Posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 14:35:50
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update, posted by Optimist on October 8, 2005, at 12:19:55
> Hi Kara and Ed,
>
> I've been playing around a bit with the DLPA and 5-HTP dosages, trying to find a middle ground. I do notice myself being more irritable with the DLPA. I'm not noticing a whole lot greater amount of energy and motivation though really. Caffeine seems to be much more efficatious in that regard.
>
> I'm also trying to cut down my caffeine intake. I've been taking upwards of 800mg a day, usually 400mg bid, in morning and late afternoon/after dinner. It's wonderful for my depression and motivation/energy, but I think it's a "robbing Paul to pay Peter" type process. I have a feeling that's it's contributing to my problems over the long term. It's the same with amphetamines. It's just difficult to get off it when I'm so dependent on it to function.
>
> Selegiline 5mg
> DLPA 1000mg - 2000mg per day(earlier in day)
> 5-HTP 100mg - 200mg per day(mostly in evening)
>
> Brian
Motivation is the hardest part - esp. if you want it without increased irritability. I can't seem to get that even with stimulants. Caffeine is the only thing that has helped me in that respect. Didn't you have some luck in the past with Wellbutrin? Have you checked out the Macuna Pruriens discussion on this board now?
Posted by ed_uk on October 8, 2005, at 16:51:28
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update, posted by Optimist on October 8, 2005, at 12:19:55
Hi Brian,
Caffeine is generally counter-productive for me. It increases my energy (very slightly) for about an hour then leaves me feeling remarkably fatigued for several hours. I think I'm better off without it!
Kind regards
~Ed
Posted by ed_uk on October 8, 2005, at 17:02:44
In reply to Re: atenolol and Dexedrine trials » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 14:21:49
Hi K
>Would that dosage make you too lazy or complacent?
I don't think so because I enjoy my job. I don't really need to motivate myself because I like working in a pharmacy. I doubt I'll go back to uni to be honest. I don't have the drive.
>I really need to go to 25 mg.
You should :-) I don't think there's any reason to be concerned. 25mg is still a low dose. Anyway, you're on a beta blocker to control your heart rate.
Perhaps you should try a range of different TCAs. Doxepin might not be the best TCA for you. So many choices: amitriptyline, imipramine, nortriptyline, clomipramine, desipramine etc. Mirtazapine is also worth considering. If you can take doxepin without gaining too much weight, mirtazapine might not be any worse!
>Might Desoxyn work where Dexedrine hasn't?
Perhaps. I think you'll probably find a better solution though.
Ed xx
Posted by KaraS on October 9, 2005, at 1:51:21
In reply to Re: atenolol and Dexedrine trials » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on October 8, 2005, at 17:02:44
> Hi K
>
> >Would that dosage make you too lazy or complacent?
>
> I don't think so because I enjoy my job. I don't really need to motivate myself because I like working in a pharmacy. I doubt I'll go back to uni to be honest. I don't have the drive.
Maybe someday you will have more drive. Either way I'm glad you're doing something you enjoy.
> >I really need to go to 25 mg.
>
> You should :-) I don't think there's any reason to be concerned. 25mg is still a low dose. Anyway, you're on a beta blocker to control your heart rate.
Is the concern that the dox and the Dex will stimulate the heart too much or that it will throw off the rhythm? Would the atenolol take care of both of these?
> Perhaps you should try a range of different TCAs. Doxepin might not be the best TCA for you. So many choices: amitriptyline, imipramine, nortriptyline, clomipramine, desipramine etc. Mirtazapine is also worth considering. If you can take doxepin without gaining too much weight, mirtazapine might not be any worse!I've tried amitriptyline and nortriptyline. I'll probably be trying desipramine next.
> >Might Desoxyn work where Dexedrine hasn't?
>
> Perhaps. I think you'll probably find a better solution though.I don't think a better solution exists for me. Nothing will give me motivation if increasing dopamine makes me sedated.
k
xx
Posted by ed_uk on October 9, 2005, at 16:31:25
In reply to Re: atenolol and Dexedrine trials » ed_uk, posted by KaraS on October 9, 2005, at 1:51:21
Hi K,
>Is the concern that the dox and the Dex will stimulate the heart too much or that it will throw off the rhythm? Would the atenolol take care of both of these?
Mainly that it might increase your heart rate too much. Atenolol should take care of this.
>Nothing will give me motivation if increasing dopamine makes me sedated.
Dexedrine might motivate you at the right dose. On the other hand, perhaps a different class of dopaminergic drug (eg. Abilify) might help. Desipramine + atenolol could work well.
>amitriptyline
Do I recall that you took quite a high dose and didn't like the side effects?
~Ed xx
Posted by Optimist on October 10, 2005, at 21:48:01
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update » Optimist, posted by KaraS on October 8, 2005, at 14:35:50
Hi Kara,
Yes, I did have some luck with Wellbutrin. I was taking at the end 450mg a day of the SR, and noticed an improvement with energy, keeping my room clean, etc... I'll have to look at some of my old posts regarding it's efficacy. I don't think it was a real heavy hitter in terms of AD effect, although I did get a good jump on it when I first started it, which I heard is not all uncommon. Many people get a big stimulant effect the first couple weeks I've read.
Yes I have checked out the Mucuna thread, and have researched it in the past. I was trying to find some in the area where I lived before with no avail, then gave up when I started Parnate due to the MAOi restrictions. Honestly though I think the restrictions are highly over-rated, at least for me. I started out very carefully, but after much experimentation I realized I could eat old cheddar cheese, tap beer, soya sauce, sausage, tyrosine, and caffeine with hardly any change in blood pressure. I have a bp cuff at home and would regularily check it after a meal. That was at 100mg Parnate a day which is a pretty hefty dose.
I think I've abandoned the DLPA for now as it's causing a little too much anxiety for my liking with little to no benefits. The 5mg of Selegiline is very mild and I hardly if at all notice I'm taking anything.
I'm sorta weighing my options now, and wondering what future course I should take. I'm currently doing not too badly at the moment but am scared s-less for when november comes when I usually spiral downwards for no apparent reason. I have no prior life events during this time that would predispose me to these depressions, but a 10 year pattern indicats that it will most likely happen again. November and may seem to be my worst months of the year for whatever reason.
Perhaps some lithium, and adding wellbutrin again, or lithium and parnate combined would be better. I'm thinking lithium's hyperglycemic tendency may cancel out parnate's hypoglycemic properties. We'll see
Or lithium/parnate/wellbutrin, or lithium/parnate/dextroamphetamine. That would probably be a while down the road as I believe going one med at a time to determine efficacy is better, then adjusting with add-ons later as needed.
Brian
> Motivation is the hardest part - esp. if you want it without increased irritability. I can't seem to get that even with stimulants. Caffeine is the only thing that has helped me in that respect. Didn't you have some luck in the past with Wellbutrin? Have you checked out the Macuna Pruriens discussion on this board now?
>
>
>
Posted by KaraS on October 10, 2005, at 22:32:44
In reply to Re: atenolol and Dexedrine trials » KaraS, posted by ed_uk on October 9, 2005, at 16:31:25
> Hi Ed,
>
> >Is the concern that the dox and the Dex will stimulate the heart too much or that it will throw off the rhythm? Would the atenolol take care of both of these?
>
> Mainly that it might increase your heart rate too much. Atenolol should take care of this.
Good, then I won't worry about it.
> >Nothing will give me motivation if increasing dopamine makes me sedated.
>
> Dexedrine might motivate you at the right dose. On the other hand, perhaps a different class of dopaminergic drug (eg. Abilify) might help. Desipramine + atenolol could work well.
Maybe but 2 dopaminergic supplements along with Ritalin, selegiline and now the Dexedrine have sedated me. I'll have to try other dosages of the Dexedrine before I give up on it though. Abilify is something to consider as well. At one point I was thinking desipramine might work but there have been so many people (including yourself) who didn't receive any motivation from desipramine. Cymbalta has plenty of effect on NE yet people on it often complain about the apathy. I doubt desipramine will do more for me than an SSRI. I'm just not feeling terribly hopeful right now.
> >amitriptyline
>
> Do I recall that you took quite a high dose and didn't like the side effects?I tried a lower dose too. It was a lot like doxepin but more sedating for me.
K
xx
Posted by KaraS on October 10, 2005, at 22:42:33
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update » KaraS, posted by Optimist on October 10, 2005, at 21:48:01
Hi,
Definitely can't hurt to add in a mood stabilizer. That might just be the magic bullet.
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you with all of those trials but I believe you're getting closer and closer to what will work best for you.
I think you're very lucky about the diet. Some people are lucky and some cheat the smallest amount and pay for it big time. My friend took only 15 mg. of selegiline and then ate some cheddar cheese and she got extremely ill. She didn't know what hit her as her doctor had never told her about hypertensive crises. Can you imagine?
Good luck and keep us posted on how your trials are going.
K
> Hi Kara,
>
> Yes, I did have some luck with Wellbutrin. I was taking at the end 450mg a day of the SR, and noticed an improvement with energy, keeping my room clean, etc... I'll have to look at some of my old posts regarding it's efficacy. I don't think it was a real heavy hitter in terms of AD effect, although I did get a good jump on it when I first started it, which I heard is not all uncommon. Many people get a big stimulant effect the first couple weeks I've read.
>
> Yes I have checked out the Mucuna thread, and have researched it in the past. I was trying to find some in the area where I lived before with no avail, then gave up when I started Parnate due to the MAOi restrictions. Honestly though I think the restrictions are highly over-rated, at least for me. I started out very carefully, but after much experimentation I realized I could eat old cheddar cheese, tap beer, soya sauce, sausage, tyrosine, and caffeine with hardly any change in blood pressure. I have a bp cuff at home and would regularily check it after a meal. That was at 100mg Parnate a day which is a pretty hefty dose.
>
> I think I've abandoned the DLPA for now as it's causing a little too much anxiety for my liking with little to no benefits. The 5mg of Selegiline is very mild and I hardly if at all notice I'm taking anything.
>
> I'm sorta weighing my options now, and wondering what future course I should take. I'm currently doing not too badly at the moment but am scared s-less for when november comes when I usually spiral downwards for no apparent reason. I have no prior life events during this time that would predispose me to these depressions, but a 10 year pattern indicats that it will most likely happen again. November and may seem to be my worst months of the year for whatever reason.
>
> Perhaps some lithium, and adding wellbutrin again, or lithium and parnate combined would be better. I'm thinking lithium's hyperglycemic tendency may cancel out parnate's hypoglycemic properties. We'll see
>
> Or lithium/parnate/wellbutrin, or lithium/parnate/dextroamphetamine. That would probably be a while down the road as I believe going one med at a time to determine efficacy is better, then adjusting with add-ons later as needed.
>
> Brian
>
> > Motivation is the hardest part - esp. if you want it without increased irritability. I can't seem to get that even with stimulants. Caffeine is the only thing that has helped me in that respect. Didn't you have some luck in the past with Wellbutrin? Have you checked out the Macuna Pruriens discussion on this board now?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Posted by Ktemene on October 12, 2005, at 8:49:26
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update, posted by Optimist on October 8, 2005, at 12:19:55
Hi Brian,
I’ve had some of the same reactions to meds that you have had. For me also Vitex is the herb that helps the most. (And caffine has always been a life-saver for me.) I have been taking 5mg selegiline for about 18 months, and I think it is very helpful, but it does not resolve my depression altogether. A few months ago my pdoc and I decided to add Wellbutrin at a low dose (because selegiline can cause Wellbutrin to become more concentrated in the blood). For me the combination of 150mg Wellbutrin + 5 mg selegiline is better than selegiline alone. Like you, I had tried Wellbutrin some time ago, and increased the dose to the maximum, 450mg a day. At that very high dosage level I began to have side effects, e.g. neck aches, memory problems. And so my pdoc took me off Wellbutrin. But at a low dose with selegiline it is working pretty well. I used to take DLPA with selegiline but I have backed off that recently because of the anxiety and proneness to anger it seems to exacerbate. A couple of herbs that have helped me with anxiety and anger are Holy Basil and Kava Kava. (Someone recommended to me the New Chapter Supercritical Holy Basil, and that is what I use. Maybe other brands are good, I just haven’t tried them.) There is some evidence that both Holy Basil and Kava Kava have some dopamine related activity. Most of the meds and herbs that have helped me affect the dopamine system. Taurine is another supplement that seemed to help keep me stable, and fish oil has helped in the same way. Most recently the thing that has helped me the most with motivation and energy is SAM-e (the butanedisulfonate form). I started taking 1600mg SAM-e in August and noticed an increase in energy and motivation within a couple of weeks. The effect is so noticeable now that I am decreasing the dosage of SAM-e because I am so energetic that it is fueling my anger. (To augment the SAM-e I also take B vitamins (esp. folate, B6 & B12), 750mg TMG and 1000mg methionine.) But I am hopeful that the right SAM-e dosage is what is needed for selegiline and Wellbutrin to have their full effect and put my depression into full remission. I have been waiting to find out whether the selegiline patch will ever make it to market. If it does, I will certainly try that. But if it does not, and the oral selegiline/Wellbutrin/SAM-e combination poops out, I am going to try Parnate.
Have you ever tried SAM-e? How about Remeron? (If antihistamines work for you, Remeron might be a good candidate. Remeron has a huge antihistamine effect.) I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences with other supplements and meds.
Ktemene
Posted by Optimist on October 12, 2005, at 13:55:55
In reply to Re: Selegiline DLPA update » Optimist, posted by Ktemene on October 12, 2005, at 8:49:26
Hi Ktemene!
Thanks for your post. It was very insightfull. I have never heard of anyone else getting relief from Vitex. It's interesting to see someone else with the same reaction. I've heard of others reports that it acts as an aphrodesiac, most likely due to it's pro-dopamine and lowered prolactin effects.
I actually just started taking Wellbutrin SR again today hoping that it would fuel some extra energy and motivation. I was considering going off selegiline, but may try your conconction and see how that goes.
I've officically given up on the DLPA due to it's anxiety elevation and irritability. There's no smoothness to it at all. I got the same feeling on tyrosine.
The supplements I'm currently taking are:
B5 4000mg
B6 (p-5-p)100mg
B12 1000mcg
Folic acid 1000mcg
TMG 6000mg
Calcium 1000mg
Magnesium 500mg
Vitamine D 1000IU
Vitamin C (Calcium Ascorbate) 600mg
Vitamin E 800IU
Iodine 1000mcg
Acetyl-L-Carnitine 2000mg
Acetyl-L-Cysteine 500mg
Vitex 120mg (per day I think, 3 capsules)
5-HTP 100-200mg
Caffeine 400-800mgThe iodine tends to help my back and relieve the muscle tension associated with it. The B5 is for adrenal health and to help clear up my acne. The TMG also seems to help my back. The 5-HTP seems to center me quite a bit and relieve any kind of stressed alarm reaction. I tend to feel more grounded and cool, if that makes any sense.
I have tried sam-e before and seemed to experience a worsening of my back problems. It may have not been related, so I'll have to check it again. I also tried methionine and was having some nasty sulfur burps and I think it was making my back worse as well. The MSM I've tried before seemed to not agree well with me and my joints, and since sam-e and methionine are also sulfur based perhaps that's why I had a negative reaction. I seem to react well to the TMG though so improved methylation seems to be a step in the right direction. Perhaps I'll try another trial with the sam-e to see how it works.
I take so many different supplement at one time it's hard to tell what's doing what sometimes. My discarded supplement list is gigantic. A lot of trial and error based on whatever theory du jour is in vogue with me at that particular time.
Sam-e is also extremely expensive. Your 1600mg per day must cost upwards of 300 bucks a month I'd think. I already spend around 400 bucks a month on supplements/drugs so it doesn't leave much extra.
I have not tried remeron. I've heard it is quite sedating which is the opposite of what I need. I sleep like a baby and always have... never had insomnia in my life so I'm not sure what use it may have.
I haven't tried Kava Kava or Holy Basil. That's something worth looking in to... I've went up to 12 grams of EPA/DHA of fish oil for extended periods of time and haven't noticed much of anything if at all. I've used good quality brands as well.
The drugs I've tried so far are: Effexor XR, Prozac, Wellbutrin SR, Parnate, Selegiline, Adderall XR, and Lamotrigine. I think that's it... oh wait moclobemide as well. It was like a placebo at 1200mg per day.
I had a robust response to the Parnate but it pooped out quite dramatically once allergy season hit. I also had bad hypoglycemia on it as well which tends to magnify my anxiety and depression.
Prozac 20mg was wonderful for my hypoglycemia but I was experiencing some sexual dysfunction on it and perhaps apathy... I'd had to look back on some previous posts.
The Adderal XR was good for energy and motivation but it seems to invoke anxiety to some degree and I felt worse off in social situations. It felt less smooth for me than caffeine. I'm thinking dexedrine would have been a better choice.
I'm curious... if your current regimand is working well now, if it poops out would it not be better to add a mood stabilizer instead of switching to a different med? Perhaps there are some cyclical bipolar characteristic which are contributing to the poop out. I believe there are different variations of bipolar where you can cycle between depressed and normal mood states, just like dysthymia has been indicated as a possible bipolar hybrid.
I was thinking of switching back to a Prozac/Wellbutrin combo and adding some lithium to increase there efficacy, although I may hold off on that and try the wellbutrin/selegiline/5-HTP combo plus lithium. The 5-HTP alone may be enough to support the serotonin side of things without having to delve back in to an SSRI. Lithium I believe also has serotonin increasing properties which may be helpful.
I'm sort of confused as to whether selegiline is causing problems with hypoglycemia with me. My tinnitus seems to be getting worse perhaps. I would like to not give up on the selegiline too quickly though as I have not given it a fair trial yet. It's only when it's combined with DLPA that it tends to increase anxiety I think.
How's that for a novel? :) I'm sure I could ramble on quite a bit more but since I'm at work I'll cut it short here.
Brian
> Hi Brian,
>
> I’ve had some of the same reactions to meds that you have had. For me also Vitex is the herb that helps the most. (And caffine has always been a life-saver for me.) I have been taking 5mg selegiline for about 18 months, and I think it is very helpful, but it does not resolve my depression altogether. A few months ago my pdoc and I decided to add Wellbutrin at a low dose (because selegiline can cause Wellbutrin to become more concentrated in the blood). For me the combination of 150mg Wellbutrin + 5 mg selegiline is better than selegiline alone. Like you, I had tried Wellbutrin some time ago, and increased the dose to the maximum, 450mg a day. At that very high dosage level I began to have side effects, e.g. neck aches, memory problems. And so my pdoc took me off Wellbutrin. But at a low dose with selegiline it is working pretty well. I used to take DLPA with selegiline but I have backed off that recently because of the anxiety and proneness to anger it seems to exacerbate. A couple of herbs that have helped me with anxiety and anger are Holy Basil and Kava Kava. (Someone recommended to me the New Chapter Supercritical Holy Basil, and that is what I use. Maybe other brands are good, I just haven’t tried them.) There is some evidence that both Holy Basil and Kava Kava have some dopamine related activity. Most of the meds and herbs that have helped me affect the dopamine system. Taurine is another supplement that seemed to help keep me stable, and fish oil has helped in the same way. Most recently the thing that has helped me the most with motivation and energy is SAM-e (the butanedisulfonate form). I started taking 1600mg SAM-e in August and noticed an increase in energy and motivation within a couple of weeks. The effect is so noticeable now that I am decreasing the dosage of SAM-e because I am so energetic that it is fueling my anger. (To augment the SAM-e I also take B vitamins (esp. folate, B6 & B12), 750mg TMG and 1000mg methionine.) But I am hopeful that the right SAM-e dosage is what is needed for selegiline and Wellbutrin to have their full effect and put my depression into full remission. I have been waiting to find out whether the selegiline patch will ever make it to market. If it does, I will certainly try that. But if it does not, and the oral selegiline/Wellbutrin/SAM-e combination poops out, I am going to try Parnate.
>
> Have you ever tried SAM-e? How about Remeron? (If antihistamines work for you, Remeron might be a good candidate. Remeron has a huge antihistamine effect.) I’d be interested in hearing about your experiences with other supplements and meds.
>
> Ktemene
>
>
>
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