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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 12 of 12. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by JaneB on September 24, 2005, at 18:37:21
I took 200 mg SAM-e one day and 400 the next. I couldn't stay awake. I felt like crying all day (not like me). What's up?
I thought it would help joint pain and give me a mood lift. What a disappointment.
Posted by spriggy on September 25, 2005, at 0:09:46
In reply to I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 24, 2005, at 18:37:21
Are you mainly depressed? Or is there anxiety as well?
I know you shouldn't take Sam-E if you are bipolar, and I've also read some things recently that say it's not what it was once thought to be.
Posted by JaneB on September 25, 2005, at 9:24:25
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e, posted by spriggy on September 25, 2005, at 0:09:46
> Are you mainly depressed? Or is there anxiety as well?
>
> I know you shouldn't take Sam-E if you are bipolar, and I've also read some things recently that say it's not what it was once thought to be.
>
Spriggy,
You are so sweet to answer my post.
Once a pdoc thought I might be cyclothymic which I understand is a form of bipolar but he wasn't sure. I mostly have mild to moderate anxiety with depression (or vice versa.)
Since going off Zoloft gradually since March and completely since June I have had pain from degenerative arthritis. I am one of those with mild symptoms of myriads of illnesses like fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, social anxiety, depression, insomnia, etc. Nothing debilitating. Just annoying. (Except the depression was debilitating 7 or 8 years ago when stress was intolerable.) Effexor and Clonazepam were a blessing.
Recently, I down spiraled because I had to take NSAIDs to reduce inflammation. All NSAIDs depress me. I thought it was my imagination but 4 years ago a pdoc confirmed it was possible and this last trial on a different one confirmed it.
So when I saw SAM-e in Costco with its claims of mood lifting and joint pain benefits I asked my family doctor and he said "give it a try."
I only took 200 mg. last night and nightmares galore.
I researched and researched and can't seem to find a lot of recent information on SAM-e.
Does that mean it is not helping people that much?
All my doctor says is, "Exercise, walk, walk, walk."
Do you walk? I keep telling myself to get out and walk but I don't. But I am going to walk out the door to go to church right now.
Sorry for the long answer.
If you have references about SAM-e I would appreciate having them.
Thanks,
Jane
Posted by Ktemene on September 25, 2005, at 13:56:55
In reply to I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 24, 2005, at 18:37:21
> I took 200 mg SAM-e one day and 400 the next. I couldn't stay awake. I felt like crying all day (not like me). What's up?
> I thought it would help joint pain and give me a mood lift. What a disappointment.Hi Jane,
Are you taking B vitamins as well? People who don't have enough B vitamins (particularly B6, B12 and folate) may not be benefited by SAMe and may actually have negative effects from it.
Insomnia and nervousness can be side effects of SAMe. The important thing is to listen to your body. If you think it is worthwhile, you might let a few days go by and then try SAMe again at a lower dosage. If the side effects appear again, then SAMe is not for you.
SAMe has been used for arthritis and there have been a fair number of clinical trials. I have coped the references for a few articles below.
Ktemene
Soeken KL, Lee WL, Bausell RB, et al. Safety and efficacy of S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) for osteoarthritis. J Fam Pract 2002;51:425-30.
Konig B. A long-term (two years) clinical trial with S-adenosylmethionine for the treatment of osteoarthritis. Am J Med 1987;83:78-80.
Berger R, Nowak H. A new medical approach to the treatment of osteoarthritis. Report of an open phase IV study with ademetionine (Gumbaral). Am J Med 1987;83:84-8.
Muller-Fassbender H. Double-blind clinical trial of S-adenosylmethionine versus ibuprofen in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Am J Med 1987;83:81-3.
Vetter G. Double-blind comparative clinical trial with S-adenosylmethionine and indomethacin in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Am J Med 1987;83:78-80.
Maccagno A, Di Giorgio EE, Caston OL, Sagasta CL. Double-blind controlled clinical trial of oral S-adenosylmethionine versus piroxicam in knee osteoarthritis. Am J Med 1987;83:72-7.
Caruso I, Pietrogrande V. Italian double-blind, multicenter study comparing S-adenosylmethionine, naproxen, and placebo in the treatment of degenerative joint disease. Am J Med 1987;83:66-71.
di Padova C. S-adenosylmethionine in the treatment of osteoarthritis. Review of the clinical studies. Am J Med 1987;83:60-5.
Glorioso S, Todesco S, Mazzi A, et al. Double-blind, multicentre study of the activity of S-adenosylmethionine in hip and knee osteoarthritis. Int J Clin Pharmacol Res 1985;5:39-49.
Posted by Declan on September 25, 2005, at 15:01:58
In reply to I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 24, 2005, at 18:37:21
I have a couple of thoughts. 200mg SAMe one day and 400mg the next is almost no SAMe. I never noticed it under 400mg/d, and then only just.
But SAMe has undesirable effects in some people. Irritability, mania, insomnia, digestive upset.
As for your joint pain, it is supposed to help with osteo, dunno how, but I've got osteo and never noticed anything. But if it was going to help with arthritic pain it would do so gradually, I suspect. It might take a month or two.
If when you felt like crying you could identify a real difference from SAMe, then maybe that's what it was. I would be looking out for irritability and such.
Declan
Posted by JaneB on September 25, 2005, at 17:07:40
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e, posted by Declan on September 25, 2005, at 15:01:58
> I have a couple of thoughts. 200mg SAMe one day and 400mg the next is almost no SAMe. I never noticed it under 400mg/d, and then only just.
> But SAMe has undesirable effects in some people. Irritability, mania, insomnia, digestive upset.
> As for your joint pain, it is supposed to help with osteo, dunno how, but I've got osteo and never noticed anything. But if it was going to help with arthritic pain it would do so gradually, I suspect. It might take a month or two.
> If when you felt like crying you could identify a real difference from SAMe, then maybe that's what it was. I would be looking out for irritability and such.
> DeclanDid you notice any help from SSRIs for joint pain?
Posted by Declan on September 26, 2005, at 14:53:32
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e » Declan, posted by JaneB on September 25, 2005, at 17:07:40
I've never taken SSRIs, but it's said of some, and certainly milnacipran (not released in the US, I think) that they reduce pain from fybromyalgia.
When you say joint pain you're not talking about osteoarthritis are you? Because that's treatable.
Declan
Posted by JaneB on September 26, 2005, at 18:53:44
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e » JaneB, posted by Declan on September 26, 2005, at 14:53:32
> I've never taken SSRIs, but it's said of some, and certainly milnacipran (not released in the US, I think) that they reduce pain from fybromyalgia.
> When you say joint pain you're not talking about osteoarthritis are you? Because that's treatable.
> DeclanThe x-rays showed degenerative arthritis. Is that the same as osteo?
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 1:28:51
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 26, 2005, at 18:53:44
Could be. Most likely is. You know the deal there, don't you? Glucosamine, fish oil, boswellia, nettle leaf, ginger, green lipped mussel. If it's rheumatoid arthritis it's more complicated. I wouldn't be relying on SAMe to take care of mine. I think osteo is quite manageable, well mine is.
Declan
Posted by JaneB on September 27, 2005, at 9:09:39
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e » JaneB, posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 1:28:51
Do you take all those, and if so, in what form? At what cost? How soon are results expected?
Thanks. Jane> Could be. Most likely is. You know the deal there, don't you? Glucosamine, fish oil, boswellia, nettle leaf, ginger, green lipped mussel. If it's rheumatoid arthritis it's more complicated. I wouldn't be relying on SAMe to take care of mine. I think osteo is quite manageable, well mine is.
> Declan
Posted by Declan on September 27, 2005, at 9:59:30
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 27, 2005, at 9:09:39
I've had osteo in my knee for 5 or 10 years. If I didn't take some of those things it would be a real problem. As it is one knee's just a little different to the other one.
How long does it take for improvement? If you take the right things you should notice some improvement within a week. That's what I'd expect for myself. Since you've got significant whatever it was (please excuse me, it wasn't osteo you said, I forget) I think you might be best advised seeing a naturopath and getting some good products. I order mine from Life Extension (from the US to Australia). I take a preparation which contains all those things (and one other) except the fish oil and green lipped mussell thing. I take a bit of fish oil anyway. The aim is to block all the inflammatory pathways, I don't know what their names are. COX 2, leukotreines, there's lots of different ones. I think osteo is actually quite treatable with alternatative things. It's the only treatment that does work. But expense? Yes, it's expensive because it's chronic. It's not going to go away. Hope that helps.
Declan
Posted by JLx on October 1, 2005, at 17:02:31
In reply to Re: I tried SAM-e, posted by JaneB on September 27, 2005, at 9:09:39
My dog has arthritis and was not wanting to even go for a walk a few years ago. I started giving her a canine formula with glucosamine, chondroitin, MSM, yucca root powder and some vitamins; she was improved in one week, and was "good to go" for walks again in two weeks. Since animals are not subject to suggestability (she actually hates the taste of these things too), I think that indicates that these things actually DO something.
There are various formulas on the market, probably not as good as LEF's but not as expensive either.
The glucosamine is supposed to actually help rebuild the synovial fluid which lubricates the joints, http://www.medical-library.net/sitesd/framer.html?/sitesd/_glucosamine.html while other ingredients are for pain and inflammation.
I'd suggest you just start experimenting. Consumer's Lab has tested some brands for glucosamine, chondroitin and MSM contents:
http://www.consumerlab.com/results/gluco.asp
JL
> Do you take all those, and if so, in what form? At what cost? How soon are results expected?
> Thanks. Jane
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