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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 71 to 95 of 112. Go back in thread:
Posted by tealady on April 14, 2005, at 3:50:40
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 13, 2005, at 11:36:15
Hi Barbara,
This is a post by Larrian written about 5 years ago. I think I've posted on it b4 here..but the search don't bring up my posts much any more (:-
http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=6675.139
She used to use it in her practise as a gyno-urologist..both blood and urine testing of amino acids and compare for metabolic pathways.
She did know what she was doing as she was a researcher in hormones )(MSH ? I think from memory) http://forums.about.com/ab-thyroid/messages?msg=6675.127Mind you this is dated 2000, and she is referring to pre 1995 before she retired.
testing both urine and bloods would have to give you some idea of what goes on in the body..which is (as far as I know) usually reflected in the brain (yeah I have heard of the blood brain barrier). I've never heard of spinal fluid being tested for neurotransmitter levels, even the more common ones.anyway..just thought I should mention that some others seem to believe it urine amino acid testing gives some indication , although she used to compare with blood levels.
I also think some idea of which path to take would help. I try to look for other symptoms ..not in the brain or emotional as a guide too, as the brain is connected to the body..even if there is a blood brain barrier.
e.g. Whenever I took SSRI's I'd get major gut symptoms. I think this should have been a sign they were not a solution. (over a no of months)
Besides most of the things we take don't go only to the brain..like our bodies have to tolerate them and need them as well. If our bodies are just going to excrete/object to whatever we take..well what's the use(except maybe over the very short term as an emrgency med).Interested in how you guys ago, although I do believe that Larrian 's approach would be more telling than just urine testing. (but frightfully exxy). She herself didn't recommend it a lot due to cost.
tea
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:29:10
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 13, 2005, at 11:36:15
> **I'm inclined to believe you, Larry, since I'm not aware of any 'breakthroughs' in neurotransmitter testing - which indeed it would be for the psychicatric community.
Indeed. If it was as simple as peeing into a cup....
> However, I have a friend who is being encouraged by the same (ex)naturopath as I to take this test. The naturopath does not have any financial interest in the two companies she's recommending and I think she'd like to believe that these tests would help.
The test itself, in my opionion, offers confirmation of the philosophy. "Believe in me, and I shall show you a sign."
> So here's my questions, just so I can display more knowledge to my friend before saying 'don't waste your money', also because my own health care providers make noises in these directions every now and then without understanding the science involved, and finally just so I can understand - mainly because there SHOULD be such a test, dammit.
>
> 1. What exactly are these tests measuring or trying to measure? amino acids? metabolites of catecholamines? valines?That's not totally clear to me, but I haven't looked *everywhere* on the site. Take the first example on this page:
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=302The first panel is a urine collection and saliva sample, said to provide analysis of: Estradiol, Estrone, Progesterone, Testosterone, Dihydrotestosterone, DHEA, Cortisol x4, Epinephrine, Norepinephrine, Serotonin, Dopamine,
GABA, PEA, Histamine, Glutamate.I needed to have my testosterone and DHEA tested, and my poor doctor was under the illusion that he needed a blood draw, under fasting conditions, at 8 a.m. And, poor man, he was under the impression that he needed to measure total testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and free testosterone, and both DHEA and DHEA-S, all from that specially-collected blood sample.
I don't exactly know what Neuroscience is measuring, and I have no idea how they have validated their methodology. Cortisol can be measured from saliva, but it is nowhere near clear that other hormones can be, or if there is any relationship at all between saliva and/or urine concentrations and free/bound plasma levels, i.e. they can be measured non-invasively.
In the realm of neurotransmitters, again it's not clear if they measure break-down products, the metabolites, of the neurotransmitters involved, along with traces of the parent, or what. For serotonin (5-hydroxytryptamine) as an example, that would be 5-HIAA (5-hydroxyindole-acetic acid). It would be useful to determine parent and metabolite concentrations, and the ratio between them, I would think.
When I read this article, they make certain claims. When I check the references (bottom of page), the claims are not supported.
http://www.neurorelief.com/showarticle.php?NewsletterView&ArticleID=456They provide many, many references to biochemical disturbances associated with mental health disturbances, but only 3? (perhaps more) deal with urine concentrations. Not only are those references sparse, they are old (twenty years). All those older references did was confirm something we already knew, and could measure by other means. The norepinephrine metabolite normetanephrine *is* elevated in the urine of *one class of depressives*, and it turns out that class is the dexamethasone non-suppressors. I fail to see how that adds to our knowledge.
Moreover, norepinephrine has multiple metabolites (as do the other catecholamine neurotransmitters), and it would require analyses of ratios between them all, and their respective parents, to develop a true metabolic profile. That work has not been done, or at least, has never been published.
Finally, 80% of the references upon which Neuroscience itself seems to rely for its scientific rationale involve cerebrospinal fluid assessments, or blood platelet/serum analyses.
In the case of CFS, only a lumbar puncture (spinal tap) can get you behind the blood/brain barrier for a biopsy sample (that's what a spinal tap represents). It is so horribly invasive a procedure (in the sense of breaching the natural barriers of the central nervous system) that it is only done in life-threatening situations. It is done precisely because CNS biochemical profiles cannot be assessed in any other way. There is no useful correlation with the biochemical profile of CFS with any other fluids in the body.
With respect to the biochemistry of blood cells, they are employed because they float around in the blood/serum, but they are metabolically separate tissues, with their own membranes isolating them from their environment, and they are easily collected. At best, they are markers for relative rates of uptake/metabolism of some biochemicals.....but making an extrapolation to brain cell biochemistry from that of a blood cell with no nucleus, whose job it is to carry oxygen, is rather tenuous. Moreover, a *blood draw* is a rather essential requirement for this test.....as it is for serum analysis. How do they (Neurosciences) get *this* info from urine, anyway?
Mainstream medicine abandoned urinalysis for these purposes because, in my own words, "we can't really learn anything useful that way."
> 2. You mentioned that these measurments didn't necessarily show only brain neurotransmitter levels, but muscle also. Could there be a base level, no matter where those values come from, that show optimum vs. unhealthy neurotransmitter values? In other words, a specific range is the goal and let the body figure out where to put the stuff.
Urine eliminates wastes from all tissues, not just the brain. There is no way to trace a metabolite or waste product back to its source, unless you're using special radioactive substances as a probe, along with other specially controlled circumstances.
It may be that a gross measurement of urine content might indicate a systemic disturbance, but, once again, no evidence has been collected to demonstrate any relationship between urine content and mental state, but for the norepinephrine metabolite normetanephrine, and the adrenal steroid cortisol. Urine measurement of some other steroidal hormones (e.g. sex hormones) is sometimes useful, but you need to know the blood levels to complete the assessment.
> For my own curiosity, what would make this test so impossible?
It's not impossible. It's not validated. Whatever they are measuring, let us assume they are measuring it well. Modern analytical equipment can provide precise and accurate measures of chemical composition. The question is, what can we infer from those measurements?
Think about diabetic monitoring. They used to rely on urinalysis. You peed on a chemically treated swab or stick. That provided crude glucose/insulin monitoring. Then they developed home blood tests. Up until very recently, actual blood samples were analysed in portable devices.....blood tells you more than urine ever could. (I say, "up until recently", because I think they've developed portable devices that don't require a blood sample....I think I remember reading that. But still, it is a blood analyzer. A trans-cutaneous blood analyzer.)
> Neurotransmitters produce metabolites. I understand the liver passes, etc., but maybe urine is not the way to go.
Think of a full garbage truck at the dump. The garbage from each home is now blended and contaminated with all the rest. Urine is a garbage truck, except there are no "address labels" (the metaphor of the garbage truck is not perfect) as in household trash, that might let you backtrack to a particular home. Maybe you can make global statements, like "We need to control disposal of recyclables", or some such, but you can't determine who is breaking the rules.
Urine crudely records systemic metabolic processes, and only by inference, at that. E.g. serotonin that is captured by a reuptake pump is not converted to 5-HIAA. You don't know total serotinergic activity, only that which was captured by the enzyme MAO. You don't know if that chemical reaction occurred in the gut or not, or if the gut is normal (irritable bowel syndrome is serotinergic). And so on.
> If indeed spinal fluid is the only valid way so far, why aren't more doctors using these tests?
Two reasons. One, it's too invasive. It has a very high relative risk, and a life-threatening condition is pretty much the only reason for shifting the risk-benefit balance towards the benefit side. Secondly, even cerebro-spinal fluid doesn't tell us much. *It* doesn't tell us what parts of the brain might be off-balance. We can't track CFS components back to their sources, either. CFS is the garbage truck for the central nervous system.
> Barring any cost, forget the snake oil supplements, it would be a relief to do away with the medical dart board approach.
I am not saying there is *nothing* of value in these tests. It may well be that they can throw darts better after these tests than before. But, I think they exaggerate the benefit substantially, if not massively.
From a good clinical interview, you could get the same treatment objectives, IMHO, as these tests could possibly indicate.
What they offer differently from standard medical care is nutritional intervention. If you look at some of the treatment protocols, they also use SSRIs, as an example.
> I KNOW amino acid level tests do exist. Too bad it's not all about amino acids, as these guys seem to be implying. But even so, maybe amino acid levels could tell us more than we're curently getting.
Yes, amino acid levels might well be useful. That is exactly the realm I focus on.....interventions in supply management. The equipment exists. I try to make better use of it. You don't need expensive tests to begin managing supply intake.
> I'm going to to pursue this, Larry, and would appreciate any help - just point in a general direction of what would be involved in getting some useful data of neurotransmitter status.I still rely on symptoms, and symptom-specific indications. I still rely on the good old "let's do this experiment" process.
> Thanks as always for your most edifying help. - Barbara
You're welcome.Lar
Posted by joebob on April 14, 2005, at 11:25:04
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 13, 2005, at 11:36:15
talk to dr. kellerman..from what i have been told he is very open to questions.....
if he won't talk to you, i could ask one of the folks who is using his system to make thc call...
he gives seminars and there are cd's of them, but i only have the last 4 of 6....
i will forward these posts to the folks who use the system and ask for their inputmaybe larry would be willing to call, he's the most kowledgable
we'll see what happens
Posted by barbaracat on April 14, 2005, at 23:28:57
In reply to Neuroscience tests...why don't you call them and » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 14, 2005, at 11:25:04
Thanks for the suggestion, JoeBob. Actually, I did talk to someone about 6 months ago. He was one of the research guys and developer of the products and we exchanged a half dozen emails. I expressed my concern that they were using 5-HTP instead of tryptophan and got the usual rap about some people died from a contaminated batch and besides, 5-HTP is actually better and so on. I told him I disagreed that it was better, that for some people, like myself, 5-HTP actually makes me feel worse. I referred to the first conversion step that gets bypassed that is an important step in other cellular processes, as well as the fact that 5-HTP targets brain receptors sites only, whereas L-tryptophan targets serotonin receptor sites in the gut and peripheral muscles, important for someone like myself who has fibromyalgia.
In short, he thanked me for the info, said he wasn't aware of these mechanics or that some people did worse on 5-HTP and he would look into providing a tryptophan product. Needless, to say this discussion did not inspire me with confidence.
Neuroscience is not the only company offering these tests. In fact, they're springing up all over the web and it's either due to the fact that some new testing breakthrough has occurred or, disturbingly, a breakthrough has not occurred. I truly hope your friends are experiencing good things with the program. It would be great to get some actual reports.
Here's an interesting read by another company. I think if I were to have this test done, this protocol makes the most sense to me.
http://www.neuroreplete.com/Neurotransmitter_testing_and_amino_acid_therapy.pdf
> talk to dr. kellerman..from what i have been told he is very open to questions.....
> if he won't talk to you, i could ask one of the folks who is using his system to make thc call...
> he gives seminars and there are cd's of them, but i only have the last 4 of 6....
> i will forward these posts to the folks who use the system and ask for their input
>
> maybe larry would be willing to call, he's the most kowledgable
>
> we'll see what happens
Posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 21:01:05
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on April 14, 2005, at 8:29:10
Thanks for the great reply, Larry. I've been digging around and the only lab and company that looks like it half knows what it's doing for neurotransmitter testing is this one: - if you can ignore the crappy website design (those revolving logos were driving me bonkers):
http://www.labdbs.com/home_page.htm
NeuroResearch is the company owned by same lab. There are a fews links that go somewhat into the testing methodology, namely using a urine creatinine ratio protocol. I'm going to do some more research and then give them a call. It'll take a lot of convincing but it'll still be interesting to talk with them. At any rate, he certainly has his opinions about some of the other operations out there, which I definitely share. Will keep you posted. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:59
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 21:01:05
> Thanks for the great reply, Larry. I've been digging around and the only lab and company that looks like it half knows what it's doing for neurotransmitter testing is this one: - if you can ignore the crappy website design (those revolving logos were driving me bonkers):
>
> http://www.labdbs.com/home_page.htm
>
> NeuroResearch is the company owned by same lab. There are a fews links that go somewhat into the testing methodology, namely using a urine creatinine ratio protocol. I'm going to do some more research and then give them a call. It'll take a lot of convincing but it'll still be interesting to talk with them. At any rate, he certainly has his opinions about some of the other operations out there, which I definitely share. Will keep you posted. - BarbaraWhoa! That is one of the crappiest website layouts I've ever seen! And there should have been a little grammar/spell-checking, too.
I'll give them one thing....they're honest about what they offer.
http://www.labdbs.com/indication%20for%20high%20dose%20amino%20acid%20therapy.htm
"The bottom line is if you have a patient with neurotransmitter dysfunction simply start them on the amino acids as per the treatment protocols established by NeuroResearch and following neurotransmitter testing guidelines recommended by NeuroResearch once treatment us underway. Neurotransmitter testing is of no value or benefit at this time when preformed prior to starting treatment of the patient."
Also:
"Most important, use of neurotransmitter testing verifies that we are not over loading the patient with amino acids and/or neurotransmitters."Lar
Posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on April 15, 2005, at 22:17:59
>
> Whoa! That is one of the crappiest website layouts I've ever seen! And there should have been a little grammar/spell-checking, too.
>**That's for sure. DBS hopefully Delivers Better Service because they certainly don't Deliver Better Syntax or Deliver Better Sites. You've gotta wonder if this is a stereotype of Scientists Don't Do Humanities or an indication of something worse. Oh well, a pretty site isn't as important as Delivering Better Stuff or Science, or...
The one article scattered hither and yon that I found interesting was the info on neuro tests being optimized within the last 5 years in Europe but only for Ser, NE, D and, what was the fourth, GABA? So the so-called labs offering testing for everything plus PEA and histamine and more are right away suspect cause the science just ain't there (oops, bad grammar). - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 9:14:02
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
> The one article scattered hither and yon that I found interesting was the info on neuro tests being optimized within the last 5 years in Europe but only for Ser, NE, D and, what was the fourth, GABA? So the so-called labs offering testing for everything plus PEA and histamine and more are right away suspect cause the science just ain't there (oops, bad grammar). - Barbara
The science isn't there.
Again, from DBS labs:
" We have become aware of claims that neurotransmitter testing could be used to diagnose illness. There is no in clinic patient treatment data or work in the world to support claims such as this. Furthermore, the hyperexcretion of neurotransmitters means that the testing is meaningless for diagnostic purposes at this time."As I said from the beginning, a good clinical history is the only thing that can be used to suggest treatment, and if they're selling you lab tests, they're doing so to line their pockets with extra money, and to add a little hocus-pocus to their delivery. Then they can sell you supplements at far higher than the normal market value.
The treatment lies in the supplements, not the hocus-pocus.
Lar
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
In reply to Re: Neuroscience tests » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 15, 2005, at 23:51:30
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
kellerman is the guy who started the whole deal, and does the various conferences/lecuture circuits...
i would LOVE to know what he has to say to you...please keep me/us updated
thanks,
joebob
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:13:11
In reply to if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
of of dr.kellerman and his work and is a competitor...better that you call the real guy and quiz him
vs:
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
good luck
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 13:46:26
In reply to if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 11:07:55
> http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=52.54
>
> kellerman is the guy who started the whole deal, and does the various conferences/lecuture circuits...I'm curious.....his bio says he has published 25 articles or something like that. I just searched Pubmed using Kellerman and the following individual keywords: neurotransmitter, urine, hormone, catecholamine.....nothing. No hits.
If you go to the Library link on the Neurorelief website, under References and Studies....
http://www.neurorelief.com/index.php?major=108.109.110.111.112.113.114
Nothing from Kellerman, in the references to his own company? Bizarre. Or....
> i would LOVE to know what he has to say to you...please keep me/us updated
>
> thanks,
> joebobAre his lectures online somewhere?
Lar
Posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 20:29:16
In reply to Re: if you are going call anyone ( great idea) try.... » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on April 16, 2005, at 13:46:26
Posted by joebob on April 18, 2005, at 12:16:55
In reply to not that i know, but i have 4 of 6 cds, mail 'em ? (nm) » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on April 16, 2005, at 20:29:16
Thank you for passing on this link to us. I did follow the threads and
I
can see why you are concerned. I have passed it along to the
appropriate
staff.I am not sure which points concern you the most. If you would like to
call
me toll free at 888-342-7272, I could discuss your concerns with you.Melissa Ahrens
Customer Service
NeuroScience Inc.
373 280th Street, Osceola WI 54020, tel. 715-294-2144
http://www.neuroscienceinc.com
Posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
In reply to bcat, lar.. phone # for qeustions re urine testing, posted by joebob on April 18, 2005, at 12:16:55
I have experience with the urine testng and thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
Neurotransmitters (NT) get spilled over into the urine thru the kidneys. Hyperexcretion (spillng over into the urine) of NT are cause by imbalances of brain chemistry. Which is caused by stress, anxiety, emotional events. Getting overly stressed is not a good thing. You will spill out valueable levels of NT into your urine. Staying calm is a good thing. It keeps your levels of important NT up to good levels. Once you get out of balance it is hard to get the levels back up and get the system feedback balancing system operating again.
Urine testing gives indications of the levels of NT. Whats low and Whats high. They know what the proper levels should be and the ratios. They know what the theraputic levels during treatment phase should be.
I have been apart of this process but I am not connected in anyway with these companies. I only provide this information because there are people out there that could use it.
We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas. For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:30:30
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:33:17
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
other supps, too? or just the neuroscience stuff?
Posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 19:03:22
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
hear more........it's important to us...the cost of the ns supps is high by my standards and i can pretty well replicate the formulas myself
thanks so much,
joebob
> I have experience with the urine testng and thought I would add my 2 cents worth.
>
> Neurotransmitters (NT) get spilled over into the urine thru the kidneys. Hyperexcretion (spillng over into the urine) of NT are cause by imbalances of brain chemistry. Which is caused by stress, anxiety, emotional events. Getting overly stressed is not a good thing. You will spill out valueable levels of NT into your urine. Staying calm is a good thing. It keeps your levels of important NT up to good levels. Once you get out of balance it is hard to get the levels back up and get the system feedback balancing system operating again.
>
> Urine testing gives indications of the levels of NT. Whats low and Whats high. They know what the proper levels should be and the ratios. They know what the theraputic levels during treatment phase should be.
>
> I have been apart of this process but I am not connected in anyway with these companies. I only provide this information because there are people out there that could use it.
>
> We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas. For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
>
> I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.
Posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:07:14
In reply to so does it..did it work for you? (nm) » coach, posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 16:30:30
I am not the user but the supplements are working for our situation. The tests results have correlated with the observations I have made. You can watch behavior and then look at the test results and they are in line. We only use the NS supplements. I read from another website (not NS) that uses aminoacid Pre-cursor therapy that they have had problems when users start takeing multi-vitamins. I know multivitamins dont usually have aminoacids but aminoAcids compete for access across the blood brain barrier so definitly you want to watch mixing aminoacids. Most of the supplements have you take them 30 minute before a meal. To prevent that sort of thing. With the testing you can figure pretty quickly , I would say a week or two, if the supplements are doing what they are designed to do. Thats what so good about the testing. You can see whats going on inside.
Posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:17:47
In reply to do you have babblemail turned on...i'd love to » coach, posted by joebob on April 20, 2005, at 19:03:22
I turned it on.
Posted by joebob on April 21, 2005, at 22:17:50
In reply to Re: do you have babblemail turned on...i'd love to, posted by coach on April 21, 2005, at 8:17:47
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
In reply to Re: Urine Testing, posted by coach on April 20, 2005, at 11:27:11
> We tried using our own seperately purchased nutrients from the health food store to regulate brain chemistry. We then got connected with the NeuroScience testing and the results showed that we were not balancing the NT with our regimine of store bought supplements. After a short time using the NeuroScience formulas the additional tests showed that the NT balance was balancing out really nicely. The tests results correlated and backed up what we were trying to accomplish by giving certain Neuro Science's supplement formulas.
I appreciate the tests were being used as feedback, but you don't say if you were taking the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) before using the Neuroscience products. Also, all you speak of is urine testing. How did you feel?
> For example at first we we trying to boost the inhibatory neurotransmitters to slow down the hyper excreation of the NT thru the urine. Once the system was calmed down then we could proceed with other treatments for the NT system. Certain ingrediants do certain things and the tests showed that the supplements we were using did indeed do their job as described.
>
> I am not a doctor but very informed on the subject. So take this information as you may.The urine test does *not* show that the supplements were doing their job. How you *feel* does. Not once did you mention pre-testing symptoms, symptom remission, or treatment effects in terms of symptoms.
Lar
Posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:27:02
In reply to Re: Urine Testing » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
Larry,
I am not the patient but I am trying to help out a family member. Sorry I can't give you personal feedback on how I feel. But I would like to maintain some privacy here , so I wont give out specific details. I want to help out so I will say what we observed and what the tests showed were in line. It is a complex system we are dealing with so it is not cut and dried. But we did see improvements in what was being felt and what the supplements were designed to do and what we were trying to accomplish. My observations from watching behavior closely was that things were improving. We tried our own store bought supplements individually but I dont think we got as good of an effect as the NS supplements. But I am not here to sell you anything. If I were to make any suggestion it would be the testing opens up a whole new window to see whats going on and how your supplements are working to change your chemistry. For Example if you take the Neuroscience product to boost serotonin and if you tested before and after takeing the supplements for a week or 2 you will see improvements in your test results. Like I said we saw a correlation in behavior that was inline with the improvements of test results.
Posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:44:11
In reply to Re: Urine Testing » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 26, 2005, at 8:26:18
Larry, In response to the statement:
> I appreciate the tests were being used as >feedback, but you don't say if you were taking >the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) >before using the Neuroscience products. Also, >all you speak of is urine testing. How did you >feel?I would say this, The reason for the testing is to know exactly what is needed. Tests results as well as how you feel are taken into account. Its not just strictly test results but they do know what ideal levels are and what the theraputic levels and ratios should be. I most likely was not giving the perfectly correct supplements before and giving them in the most efficient ratios. You can overload the system. By going to the NS supplements I most likely was giving a more efficient supplement. I read on one website but I cant remember which one, that they saw problems with a person takeing a multivitamin because it was messing with their nutritional regimine they were trying to treat the person with.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 7:38:00
In reply to Testing and Store Bought Supplements, posted by coach on April 26, 2005, at 15:44:11
> Larry, In response to the statement:
>
> > I appreciate the tests were being used as >feedback, but you don't say if you were taking >the correct stuff (storebought nutrients) >before using the Neuroscience products. Also, >all you speak of is urine testing. How did you >feel?
>
> I would say this, The reason for the testing is to know exactly what is needed. Tests results as well as how you feel are taken into account. Its not just strictly test results but they do know what ideal levels are and what the theraputic levels and ratios should be. I most likely was not giving the perfectly correct supplements before and giving them in the most efficient ratios. You can overload the system. By going to the NS supplements I most likely was giving a more efficient supplement. I read on one website but I cant remember which one, that they saw problems with a person takeing a multivitamin because it was messing with their nutritional regimine they were trying to treat the person with.I thing the issues in debate are not the same on both sides of this conversation. I am not meaning to sound in the least bit dismissive, or sceptical. I'm unconvinced.
Your earlier posts were that taking the NS supplements affected urinary parameters. I asked about mood response, as it wasn't really clear, in that regard. You acknowledge mood response.
I'm a scientist, and I always want to know what's going on. But, at the same time, I'm always cautious in what I'll acknowledge that we can learn from a particular set of observations.
The NS supplements are correlated with changes in urinary components.
The NS supplements are correlated with improved mood? (you didn't really say).Correlations have four possible explanations.
1. Random chance sampling.
2. Variable A affects Variable B.
3. Variable B affects Variable A.
4. Both A and B are affected by a third variable, C.You state that NS supps lead to changes in urinary neurotransmitter content. I have no reason to doubt that, and the second type of correlation is most likely.
You state that NS supps lead to changes in mood. Again, the second explanation seems valid.
However, the hypothesis that changes in urine affect mood is not supported by the evidence, and we already know that the fourth type of correlation is in operation. Two variables, each separately correlated with a third variable, will also be correlated to each other. In other words, the urine output and mood changes are a chance correlation, simply because they have a common cause.
So, at the end of the day, I find no evidence that urinary components have any bearing whatsoever on the mood effectiveness of the NS supplements. My earlier hypothesis that the supplements will affect mood, as their primary effect, is not invalidated by anything NS or anyone else has ever published.
It is my sincere belief that they sell you the urinalysis for two reasons: to make even more money from you; and to give you a reason to believe in what they are doing. Faith in your caregiver is a good thing. Faith alone can improve response. But, in the end, all and everything taken into account, it comes down to eating supps and feeling better.
As a scientist, this is how I apply my training. And, as a person, this is how I judge it.
Lar
Posted by coach on April 27, 2005, at 10:21:56
In reply to Re: Testing and Store Bought Supplements » coach, posted by Larry Hoover on April 27, 2005, at 7:38:00
Larry,
I see your view point. I am not here to sell you anything so I wont go on any further on testing. If you want to try it out and see if it can help you then thats up to you. If later down the road it pans out that it was just a bunch hocus pocus I will get back on here and let everyone know. But as of right now it has been working so we will keep on the track.
The whole idea of urinary excreation of neurotransmitters is still being figured out. It may be something to research on and learn about. I think they do know that stressful excitable situations will increase the excreation of neurotransmitters thru the kidneys to the urine. The reasons why is unknown. But what I take from that is if you try to "not" get stressed or out of controll emotionally you can preserve you levels of NT's in the brain thus saving your valueable stores of NT's. Its been noted also that as the system gets calmed down the urinary excreation slows down thus not loosing valuable stores of NT's. Thats why they always try to calm the system down first with inhibatory regimine of amino supplements then add excitatory aminos and precursors later. ITs all a big balancing act that needs to have sufficient levels of NT's to help the system work and stay balanced. Like priming a pump. You have to have enough to get the system kick started. The thing against drugs is they dont increase your working levels of NT's but they just deal with the low levels you got. By blocking the reuptake or the break down of the NT's they make more "seem" available. But if your extremely low in the first place alot of times you have too low of levels for even the drugs to work. Once the system gets out of balance it can be hard to get it inbalance again and it takes time. MY advice is to try and not to excited about anything, boost your NT's with amino acid therapy, and make sure you know what NT's need addressed by urinary testing. Whoops I wasnt supposed to mention testing again , oh well.
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