![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 45 to 69 of 112. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:11:26
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression - Questions, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 18:23:48
> My doc changed her mind and won't give me the tests and won't prescribe the 100,000IU dose I'd been hoping for (suggested I 'take 400mg since I don't have osteoporosis - it's the RDA'. Here I was hoping I'd found an enlightened primary care doc. They don't seem to exist, do they?).
>
> My question: Is there something magical about the 100,000 and up dosing to eradicate depression as Elaine's daughter experienced? I can imagine it as a sort of Vitamin/hormone reset button. What are thoughts about lower doses, i.e., the 4,000IU alot of practitioners are promoting? What's so special about this dosage?I posted a good link for the 4000 IU level. Here it is again:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
Just for the record, I found articles describing *pediatric* (consider body weight) treatments with 600,000 IU in one treatment.
It is looking like there is no absolute upper level, but that chronic excess intake can disturb calcium homeostasis.
Lar
Posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » TamaraJ, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:06:43
> > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tamara
>
> Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
>
> Lar
>
Hi Lar,Good to see you back posting again.
I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))
AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?
BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)
JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.
As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.
BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 7:47:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
> > > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Tamara
> >
> > Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
> >
> > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
> >
> > Lar
> >
> Hi Lar,
>
> Good to see you back posting again.Thanks. So am I. I missed me, too.
> I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
If you looked at the references (hotlinked to some full-text articles, even), you'd see prior work establishing that 100 µg is indeed a physiologic (normal) dose of vitamin E.
> I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))The body has an amazing capacity to store vitamin D, which is how summertime production can more or less get one through the winter. However, with sunscreen and indoor jobs and all that, summertime production is severely limited. Even air conditioning should be considered, as an independent variable. It keeps people indoors.
There's a key quotation in this article: "Future studies of vitamin D supplementation should take into account that it may take a year to reach stable 25(OH)D levels. Although previous work (including our own) has implied that plateau levels of 25(OH)D can occur within five months [5,37], the impression of a plateau reflects the time pattern of sampling; i.e. samples taken at short time intervals can give a false impression of a plateau."
> AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Just as with thyroid hormones, I would argue that what has been taken to be "normal" PTH is subject to question.
> Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
Considering that these guys are endocrinologists, I might hazard a guess that they've done their homework. There is a lot of excellent data available through the hotlinks in the references. Check reference 7.
> The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.
25(OH)D is also a neuromodulator. It directly affects mood. There are vitamin D receptors, and enzymes dedicated to receive it, in the brain.
> So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?Certainly, it does require some individual consideration of other sources, but again, from the linked references, you can find evidence that the daily vitamin D flux is at (or above) 100 µg/day. There are blessed few dietary sources of vitamin D. Vitamin D was only recognized as a vitamin when people took a look at how cod liver oil helped treat rickets. We weren't yet sophisticated enough to recognize that it wasn't a vitamin, but rather a hormone, but in any case, exogenous sources of vitamin D are really quite rare. When's the last time you caught a cod and selected its liver from the entrails?
> BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)That, I don't know (the conversion). The normal is 4.4-5.3 mg/dL, for ionized (free) calcium.
> JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
How much sun do you get?
> I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.There is some room for interpretation, but the current RDA/DRI levels are ridiculously low. Persons with mood disorders, which keep them largely indoors (like myself), ought to be taking substantial vitamin D supps, IMHO. Long-term supplementation with 100 µg (4000 IU)/day did not result in a single instance of adverse effects, despite their being no restrictions placed on the subjects with respect to potential alternate sources of this nutrient.
> As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.That's fair. Wellbeing measures were higher in the high-dose group.
> BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
>
> JanI appreciate your questioning of the underlying assumptions in this study. Yes, a once-a-week dosing paradigm might lead to different outcomes than a daily dose providing the same net amount. However, that is exactly the assumption made in determinations of all nutrient intakes; average weekly intake, divided by seven.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on March 28, 2005, at 5:47:11
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:08:08
> > Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
> >
> > http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
> >
> > Ray
>
> Mr. Ray Bakes!
>
> Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
>
> Lar
>
>Thanks Lar! I've been totally absorbed with my family tree since christmas. Still doing really well with all my methyl factors/donors and combining it with a liver glandular from allergy research, seems to heighten the positive effect. Do you think there would be much vitamin D in a beef liver glandular?
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 28, 2005, at 5:47:11
> > Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> >
>
> Thanks Lar! I've been totally absorbed with my family tree since christmas. Still doing really well with all my methyl factors/donors and combining it with a liver glandular from allergy research, seems to heighten the positive effect. Do you think there would be much vitamin D in a beef liver glandular?
>
> RayI have no idea what might be in a liver glandular. I used to work at a health food warehouse (long before I realized what was the point of having this stuff available), and we used to sell dessicated liver powders. All I remember is the yuck that got all over us when we were packaging that stuff.
So, re: geneology. Are you going to tell us what famous ancestors turned up in this search, or what?
Lar
Posted by mystery road on March 29, 2005, at 18:54:45
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
Just a follow up to my post almost 3 weeks ago..I've been doing 4000iu Vit D3/day and feeling remarkably better..Anger is just about non-existent and I actually feel a sense of calm.It's helped to pull me out of a major depression.I really didn't expect this much of a benefit..I'll now go and have my levels checked..Can some one recommend a site for a d3 check?..Thanks.
MR
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2005, at 23:09:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by mystery road on March 29, 2005, at 18:54:45
> Just a follow up to my post almost 3 weeks ago..I've been doing 4000iu Vit D3/day and feeling remarkably better..Anger is just about non-existent and I actually feel a sense of calm.It's helped to pull me out of a major depression.I really didn't expect this much of a benefit..I'll now go and have my levels checked..Can some one recommend a site for a d3 check?..Thanks.
>
> MRAny doctor can order the test. For the results to be meaningful, discontinue all vitamin D supps at least 7 days before having blood drawn.
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on March 29, 2005, at 23:40:36
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » mystery road, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2005, at 23:09:33
I need a reality check. Is the Vit D test expensive? My doctor did an about face on the Vit D issue. She'd been to a seminar about it, was all excited about high dosing for my mood disorder and just wanted to get more info before prescribing it. Next time I saw her, she said high dosing was only indicated for active osteoporosis and I should just take the standard 400IU. I said, 'well, is it worthwhile to at least get a blood level?' and she said 'oh, the test is too expensive, and doesn't tell you anything useful. Just get more sunlight'. Yeah, right, I live in the rainy NorthWest!
It left me with a weird feeling and I don't know what to think. I can't imagine the test is that expensive, and even if it is, it's my money. She's probably doing a CYA for legal reasons, but what a strange thing. So, I ordered the Biotics 2,000IU brand and am back to being my own doctor, but jeez, I'd prefer to do this with a bit more caution. Sigh. Are there ANY decent docs out there? Or is 'decent doc' an oxymoron under managed care? - BCat
> Any doctor can order the test. For the results to be meaningful, discontinue all vitamin D supps at least 7 days before having blood drawn.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by mystery road on March 30, 2005, at 5:36:01
In reply to Vit D and weird doc, posted by barbaracat on March 29, 2005, at 23:40:36
> I need a reality check. Is the Vit D test expensive? My doctor did an about face on the Vit D issue. She'd been to a seminar about it, was all excited about high dosing for my mood disorder and just wanted to get more info before prescribing it. Next time I saw her, she said high dosing was only indicated for active osteoporosis and I should just take the standard 400IU. I said, 'well, is it worthwhile to at least get a blood level?' and she said 'oh, the test is too expensive, and doesn't tell you anything useful. Just get more sunlight'. Yeah, right, I live in the rainy NorthWest!
>
> It left me with a weird feeling and I don't know what to think. I can't imagine the test is that expensive, and even if it is, it's my money. She's probably doing a CYA for legal reasons, but what a strange thing. So, I ordered the Biotics 2,000IU brand and am back to being my own doctor, but jeez, I'd prefer to do this with a bit more caution. Sigh. Are there ANY decent docs out there? Or is 'decent doc' an oxymoron under managed care? - BCatBCat..
I say, why wait?..If your going through depression and need some relief, just try this on your own..Give it a few weeks and see if it helps you..If it helps and then you go to a doc and tell them what you've been doing, they'll likely prescribe the test..The risk to reward is in your favor..
MR
Posted by raybakes on March 30, 2005, at 9:07:13
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
> I have no idea what might be in a liver glandular. I used to work at a health food warehouse (long before I realized what was the point of having this stuff available), and we used to sell dessicated liver powders. All I remember is the yuck that got all over us when we were packaging that stuff.
>
> So, re: geneology. Are you going to tell us what famous ancestors turned up in this search, or what?
>
> Lar
>
>No one famous, sadly! just carpenters, blacksmiths, porters and shipbuilders from London mainly, but also Germany, France and Scotland.
Ray
Posted by barbaracat on March 30, 2005, at 17:34:37
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by mystery road on March 30, 2005, at 5:36:01
Oh, I'm not waiting. I've started taking 4,000IU daily, may bump it up depending on how I feel but. I generally take these matter into my own hands anyway. I'm feeling frustrated at the sorry condition of medical care and how much I have to pay in insurance premiums for the priviledge.
> I say, why wait?..If your going through depression and need some relief, just try this on your own..Give it a few weeks and see if it helps you..If it helps and then you go to a doc and tell them what you've been doing, they'll likely prescribe the test..The risk to reward is in your favor..
>
> MR
>
>
>
Posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc » mystery road, posted by barbaracat on March 30, 2005, at 17:34:37
Hi Barbaracat and MR
Sorry to hear your trials and tribulations with your doctor Barbaracat. I can't believe the medical profession: they seem to have an inbuilt resistance to the idea of vit D. I was at a party the other night and chatting to a GP who didn't believe me when I told her my daughter had been vit D deficient. She was so disbelieving it wasn't funny. In New Zealand? Hah.
I'd listen to MR on this one, start supplementing and tell your doctor eventually that you're doing it so she'll be forced to test you out of worry. I don't think the blood test is anything out of the ordinary, and especially if you're willing to pay for it! What's wrong with your doc?
Congratulations MR: sounds like Vit D may well be at the root of all your biochemistry problems, just like it was for my daughter. I'm sure you're not imagining the changes!!!! I've been directly emailing one of your other members about vit D and he's been tested and came back really low so is about to megadose.
By the way, turns out the megadose was a form of vit D2 for my daughters called calcifediol. And it was 3 mcg? or about 120,000 iu. They don't have therapuetic doses of D3. Just to set the record straight on that one.
Barbaracat, too many of your symptoms sound vit D related to me: that whole fibromyaglia thing as well as your depression, plus your mom having ricketts, plus the good ole rainy pacific northwest. So good for you for dosing up anyway, follow MR's advice and threaten and cajole once you're taking it to get your doctor worried enough to get you tested.
Anyway it's great to know that vit D has proved so helpful to you MR: I hope others of you out there are paying attention and thinking of giving it a try. Let me reiterate that your symptoms don't have to be classic SAD in the winter type stuff to have a vit D deficiency: it can be unipolar or bipolar, it can happen in the summer, whatever. Your vit D levels go down over time and if you're just not getting enough sun for whatever reason, it can show up at any time. Remember Vit D impacts the adrenal glands and stops them working properly, so your moods are not being regulated the way they should, and who knows how that looks in terms of an individual's symptoms.
Good luck MR! And Barbaracat I hope you show some signs of improvement once you start dosing: I'm sure you sound like a good case for vit D doing a lot of good.
Bye now
Elainep
Posted by barbaracat on April 3, 2005, at 20:58:19
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
HI Elaine,
My husband and I have started on Biotics Forte, which is an emulsified Vit D at 2,000UI a drop. I've started on 4 drops, or 8,000IU and will see how it goes. A question for you - did your daughter take only 1 megadose and then supplemented on a daily basis with a higher than normal dose?Also, can you provide more info on adrenals and D? The adrenal connection is a particular interest of mine. They go through alot of wear and tear through stress and anrenal fatigue impacts the entire hormonal system. The story is that if the adrenals are compromised, the thyroid will continue to suffer even if TSH values are supposedly normal. Being hypothyroid, another little Vitamin D bell just rang.
Posted by mystery road on April 4, 2005, at 9:36:19
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
So far, so good Elaine..Thanks.
I'll keep posting as things progress..Especially as we start to see some sunlight on the east coast..Its been very sunless here for a long time..MR
Posted by Elainep on April 4, 2005, at 15:56:11
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on April 3, 2005, at 20:58:19
Hi Barbaracat
Here's a link with a short something about Vit D and adrenals, but I never really found anything on the internet about it, it was what one doctor told me when she was explaining how Vit D affected moods (she said it was through the proper regulation of the adrenal glands, which in turn handled the mood chemicals).
http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/23/vitamin_d.htm
Yes, my daughter only had the one megadose. My other daughter was low as well and also had a megadose. Here are the actual numbers:June 2004: Jo tested at 16 nmol/l (normal range is 50-150 nmol/l) Jo weighs about 50 kg. Had a megadose of 3 mcg? of calcifediol.
July 2004: Jo tested at 86 nmol/l. Took supplements of 400iu a day.
Jan 2005: Jo tested at 68 nmol/l. Have now upped her supplements to 1000iu a day. Will get her retested this July.
June 2004: Pat tested at 22 nmol/l. Pat weighs about 72 kg. After the one megadose of 3 mcg? of calcifediol:
July 2004: Pat tested at 72 nmol/l. Took no supplements for the next 6 months, but 'basked' most mornings in the sun for 10-15 minutes.
Jan 2005: Tested at 67 nmol/l. Not as great a loss as Jo (who continued to see no sun but supplemented at 400iu a day for the same period). Pat now on 1000iu a day, will get retested in July.Me. I got myself tested in January with the girls. Test results: 48 nmol/l. I am also taking 1000iu a day for six months, will get retested in July.
Hope this helps Barbaracat.
Bye now
Elainep
Posted by barbaracat on April 4, 2005, at 19:04:26
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 4, 2005, at 15:56:11
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2005, at 13:59:07
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 4, 2005, at 15:56:11
> Hi Barbaracat
>
> Here's a link with a short something about Vit D and adrenals, but I never really found anything on the internet about it, it was what one doctor told me when she was explaining how Vit D affected moods (she said it was through the proper regulation of the adrenal glands, which in turn handled the mood chemicals).
>
> http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/23/vitamin_d.htmI appreciate the link, but the reference he gives as a source page does not once mention the adrenals.
In fact, he snipped paragraphs from this unreferenced work:
http://www.westonaprice.org/basicnutrition/vitamindmiracle.html
However, I tracked down the adrenal reference, and it's at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9011759Not a problem, really. I'm glad they're coming up with reasons to supplement D....if it makes people take some, that's a good thing. I know I seldom get sunlight. That's all I need to know. Cod liver oil and supplement tablets, for life. Who knows how long I've been deficient, but I have to believe I must be. I have all the risk factors.....easily sunburn (sun avoidance).... work, live and play generally indoors....health problems that keep me in the house....how could I not have a vitamin D deficiency?
BTW, the idea that milk is properly fortified with vitamin D (and vitamin A) is false. Just because it says it on the label....Testing has proven otherwise:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=3391970
The only way to be sure is to take a supplement, IMHO. God knows what my health would be like if I'd had it all along.
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on April 9, 2005, at 16:44:52
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc » Elainep, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2005, at 13:59:07
Larry,
This article you linked to and others I've been reading mention the tyrosine hydrolxylase gene re adrenals in Vit D therapy. Do you know whether this tyrosine gene relates to the amino acid L-tyrosine, which is the precursor to thyroxine hormone? I'm hypothyroid, as so many of us are, and if Vit D is relevant then one more bingo.BTW, I've been dosing with 8,000mg of Vit D emulsion drops (Biotics Research) for about 2 weeks now. Maybe it's my imagination, maybe it's getting alot of other things balanced, but I do feel more energy, less bone pain and I guess one would say 'sunnier' of disposition. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2005, at 17:11:44
In reply to Vit D, adrenal and tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 9, 2005, at 16:44:52
> Larry,
> This article you linked to and others I've been reading mention the tyrosine hydrolxylase gene re adrenals in Vit D therapy. Do you know whether this tyrosine gene relates to the amino acid L-tyrosine, which is the precursor to thyroxine hormone? I'm hypothyroid, as so many of us are, and if Vit D is relevant then one more bingo.Sorry, the bingo announcer called out the wrong number.
The hydroxylation of tyrosine turns it into L-DOPA, the intermediate for dopamine synthesis.
Tyrosine that is to become thyroid hormone is first incomporated into a massive protein glob called thyroglobulin. It's kind of like a porcupine, studded with tyrosines. The tyrosine molecules are iodinated, then combined to form T4 and T3. They are totally distinct processes.
> BTW, I've been dosing with 8,000mg of Vit D emulsion drops (Biotics Research) for about 2 weeks now. Maybe it's my imagination, maybe it's getting alot of other things balanced, but I do feel more energy, less bone pain and I guess one would say 'sunnier' of disposition. - Barbara
I am so glad to hear that.
One wonders if the adjective sunny, with respect to disposition, bears with it a history of observation.....those who take the sun have it, more than others?
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on April 9, 2005, at 21:36:18
In reply to Re: Vit D, adrenal and tyrosine » barbaracat, posted by Larry Hoover on April 9, 2005, at 17:11:44
> One wonders if the adjective sunny, with respect to disposition, bears with it a history of observation.....those who take the sun have it, more than others?
>
**And those who don't take the sun have the moon and are therefore more 'loony' or 'luna-y'?Larry, talking about tyrosine got me thinking about a test my former naturopath wanted me to take, a urine test to measure serotonin, NE, dopamine, histamine and GABA. I declined because I don't believe the science has been perfected to measure these with any accuracy and didn't want to waste $200. Or maybe I'm wrong, although it would seem that if such testing were available we'd be using it to save alot of time and heartache with our med trials. But maybe docs aren't aware of it?
The company is Neuroscience and the website is www.neuroscienceinc.com if you have a hankering to check them out. How great if it were true, but I don't think so. A little flag started waving in that they conveniently sell their own remedy line of amino acid products. - Barbara
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:18:56
In reply to Re: Vit D, adrenal and tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 9, 2005, at 21:36:18
> Larry, talking about tyrosine got me thinking about a test my former naturopath wanted me to take, a urine test to measure serotonin, NE, dopamine, histamine and GABA. I declined because I don't believe the science has been perfected to measure these with any accuracy and didn't want to waste $200. Or maybe I'm wrong, although it would seem that if such testing were available we'd be using it to save alot of time and heartache with our med trials. But maybe docs aren't aware of it?
Waste of time and money, and potentially distracting from more appropriate therapies.....
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050323/msgs/482309.html
Nothing wrong with maybe buying their aminos (if they're cost effective), but the rationale for choosing from among them is seriously flawed.
Lar
Posted by joebob on April 12, 2005, at 18:18:02
In reply to Re: Vit D, adrenal and tyrosine » Larry Hoover, posted by barbaracat on April 9, 2005, at 21:36:18
and i could replicate the formulas myself more cheaply except for a few peculuiarities....
one being 'zinc nicotinate' and the other being the sublingual 'lipolyzed' theanine and 5-htp...
i can say this at this point....a large part of the neuroscienceinc protocols rests on theanine and 5htp, at least in in the early stages.....
i do have the next level, stage 2 of supps for my wife, and there is a lot more stuff in it....unfortunately they are being a little more tricky about telling you how much of what is in each capsule.....
ask me more and i'll tell you what i can as time allows
we deserve to be treated well and fairly, just as much as dr. kellerman deserves to make a living and be heard...i hope some of us on this board can follow this thread for a while and compare notes
best,
joebob
Posted by barbaracat on April 12, 2005, at 18:34:55
In reply to i did the test and now have the supps recommended » barbaracat, posted by joebob on April 12, 2005, at 18:18:02
Dear JoeBob,
Thanks so much for replying. I'm really interested in hearing from people who have taken these tests to measure neurotransmitters.I don't doubt that amino acid therapy would help although I have doubts about taking single aminos without balancing them out. My question lies more with, are these tests really measuring something useful? Since the whole body runs on neurotransmitters, how can these tests be specific? It seems there are a number of these urine tests popping up over the internet. Most docs I've talked to about them just roll their eyes - which doesn't mean anything, but I can't find much on the methods they're using to isolate anything definitive.
> and i could replicate the formulas myself more cheaply except for a few peculuiarities....
>
> one being 'zinc nicotinate' and the other being the sublingual 'lipolyzed' theanine and 5-htp...
>
> i can say this at this point....a large part of the neuroscienceinc protocols rests on theanine and 5htp, at least in in the early stages.....
>
> i do have the next level, stage 2 of supps for my wife, and there is a lot more stuff in it....unfortunately they are being a little more tricky about telling you how much of what is in each capsule.....
>
> ask me more and i'll tell you what i can as time allows
>
> we deserve to be treated well and fairly, just as much as dr. kellerman deserves to make a living and be heard...i hope some of us on this board can follow this thread for a while and compare notes
>
> best,
> joebob
Posted by joebob on April 13, 2005, at 10:27:59
In reply to Neuroscience tests » joebob, posted by barbaracat on April 12, 2005, at 18:34:55
below.......he is also dubious about the tests
i had it and paid for it, now i have the first round of supps....they are listed in the thread:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20050323/msgs/482309.html
or in my reply
i'll let you know how it goes, my wife is trying it too
best,
joebob
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 13, 2005, at 11:04:13
In reply to Neuroscience tests » joebob, posted by barbaracat on April 12, 2005, at 18:34:55
> My question lies more with, are these tests really measuring something useful?
Simply put, no the tests do not measure anything useful.
They use the tests to sell a philosophy, a belief structure. They use the tests to increase cash flow for themselves, while simultaneously convincing you that they are doing something to help you. The test itself does not contribute to changing how you feel (other than by suggestion).
But, once convinced of the validity of their philosophy ("Look! The tests prove you are low serotonin, high histamine (or whatever)."), and already having you invested financially and emotionally, they can now sell you expensive supplements to "treat your low serotonin, high histamine" etc.
That is finally the point where treatment becomes possible.....the taking of supplements.
You don't have to buy *their* supplements to have the effect. You don't have to believe *their* philosophy to have the effect. No, all you have to do is swallow some supplements, which could come from any source.
They sell you two things. One is an overarching belief system (which may or may not be valid, and is unproveable, in any case). And the other thing they sell you is (expensive) supplements.
That's how I see it, anyway.
Lar
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.