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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 5:48:36
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Sarah T., posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 22:18:54
Hi Larry. When you say that you don't give a thought to the Calcium, do you mean that you don't take any Calcium supplements?
Do you know what sort of psychotropic activity glycine has? I've done some searches on Taurine, but I'm not yet familiar with glycine's effects. I will look it up, but I'd be interested to hear your ideas about it as well. Also, what are the benefits of chelation? The label on the bottle of magnesium glycinate says, "Chelated Magnesium."
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 8:08:15
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Larry Hoover, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 5:48:36
> Hi Larry. When you say that you don't give a thought to the Calcium, do you mean that you don't take any Calcium supplements?
No, I don't supplement calcium. I eat a fair bit of canned salmon. The steam processing softens the bones enough that you eat them in their entirety.
> Do you know what sort of psychotropic activity glycine has? I've done some searches on Taurine, but I'm not yet familiar with glycine's effects. I will look it up, but I'd be interested to hear your ideas about it as well.
Glycine is supposed to be anxiolytic, but I honestly haven't dug into that in any detail.
> Also, what are the benefits of chelation? The label on the bottle of magnesium glycinate says, "Chelated Magnesium."
Chelation is similar to what we call a salt. I tried to simplify things by not getting into this distinction. Chela means claw, in Greek. One end of an amino acid has a carboxylate functional group, and that's what forms a weak bond with the magnesium ion. (EDTA has four carboxylate groups, and it is often used to chelate minerals.) It takes a number of these glycine molecules to surround a single magnesium ion, to hold it in their (collective) claws. Glycine is the simplest amino acid (structurally), so it has a higher magnesium "yield" per gram of chelate. But really, any amino acid could chelate a mineral ion.
When you dry a chelate, it doesn't form crystals like true salts. But we don't generally need to worry about stuff like that in the nutritional aspect. Chelates dissolve readily in the acid of the gut. That's the bottom line. You get free magnesium, and free glycine (or whatever), and each has its own physiological activity (if any).
Lar
Posted by banga on March 27, 2005, at 9:02:33
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Sarah T., posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 8:08:15
I have heard magnesium oxide is not well absorbed. It is cheap and that is why many companies use it. Someone said you may as well chew on cement!
I have heard the salts are much better....
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 11:45:24
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Sarah T., posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 8:08:15
Larry, thank you very much for all that information.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 12:08:01
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by banga on March 27, 2005, at 9:02:33
Hi Banga. Yes, magnesium oxide seems to be the form that's in most brands, like CVS, Walgreens, and the store brands sold at most grocery stores.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:21:14
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by banga on March 27, 2005, at 9:02:33
> I have heard magnesium oxide is not well absorbed. It is cheap and that is why many companies use it. Someone said you may as well chew on cement!
> I have heard the salts are much better....The first abstract shows nearly 40 times higher magnesium concentration in urine following citrate, compared to oxide. Oxide was poorly soluble, even in pure stomach acid.
The second abstract give mag oxide a bioavailability of 4% of total dose. Unfortunately, it doesn't put a number on the other preparations, for comparative purposes.
Lar
Magnesium bioavailability from magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide.
Lindberg JS, Zobitz MM, Poindexter JR, Pak CY.
Center for Mineral Metabolism and Clinical Research, University of Texas,Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas 75235.
This study compared magnesium oxide and magnesium citrate with respect to in vitro solubility and in vivo gastrointestinal absorbability. The solubility of 25 mmol magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide was examined in vitro in solutions containing varying amounts of hydrochloric acid (0-24.2 mEq) in 300 ml distilled water intended to mimic achlorhydric to peak acid secretory states. Magnesium oxide was virtually insoluble in water and only 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml). Magnesium citrate had high solubility even in water (55%) and was substantially more soluble than magnesium oxide in all states of acid secretion. Reprecipitation of magnesium citrate and magnesium oxide did not occur when the filtrates from the solubility studies were titrated to pH 6 and 7 to stimulate pancreatic bicarbonate secretion. Approximately 65% of magnesium citrate was complexed as soluble magnesium citrate, whereas magnesium complexation was not present in the magnesium oxide system. Magnesium absorption from the two magnesium salts was measured in vivo in normal volunteers by assessing the rise in urinary magnesium following oral magnesium load. The increment in urinary magnesium following magnesium citrate load (25 mmol) was significantly higher than that obtained from magnesium oxide load (during 4 hours post-load, 0.22 vs 0.006 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05; during second 2 hours post-load, 0.035 vs 0.008 mg/mg creatinine, p less than 0.05). Thus, magnesium citrate was more soluble and bioavailable than magnesium oxide.
Magnes Res 2001 Dec;14(4):257-62
Bioavailability of US commercial magnesium preparations.
Firoz M, Graber M.
Department of Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Northport, NY 11768, USA.
Magnesium deficiency is seen with some frequency in the outpatient setting and requires oral repletion or maintenance therapy. The purpose of this study was to measure the bioavailability of four commercially-available preparations of magnesium, and to test the claim that organic salts are more easily absorbed. Bioavailability was measured as the increment of urinary maginesium excretion in normal volunteers given approximately 21 mEq/day of the test preparations. Results indicated relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide (fractional absorption 4 per cent) but significantly higher and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, magnesium lactate and magnesium aspartate. We conclude that there is relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide, but greater and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride, lactate, and aspartate. Inorganic magnesium salts, depending on the preparation, may have bioavailability equivalent to organic magnesium salts.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:22:18
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Larry Hoover, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 11:45:24
Posted by tealady on March 27, 2005, at 17:56:42
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » banga, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:21:14
Well Lar that still doesn't make total sense to me either :-)
Take for instance
"Magnesium oxide was ... 43% soluble in simulated peak acid secretion (24.2 mEq hydrochloric acid/300 ml)."
OK..so I assume this means MgO and HCl forms Mg ions, Cl ions ..at maybe 43%..rest stays as MgO? (assuming nothing else is taking concurrently and empty stomach etc)So what difference could this possibly be to taking MgCl at 43% dosage level of the MgO?
referring to "Results indicated relatively poor bioavailability of magnesium oxide (fractional absorption 4 per cent) but significantly higher and equivalent bioavailability of magnesium chloride"
Also there is an assumption that MgO is taken on a completely empty stomach ..I think??
Would be a higher absorption rate if taken with something acidic ..like a mix of citrate and oxide forms?, or even with some betaine HCl, or even vinegar?I guess my main question is why consider JUST urine?(OK I think I know the answer, the researchers wanted to limit the amount of work?)..I do realise that urine measures what is absorbed first then excreted. However if you don't measure the part NOT absorbed as well..how do you know for sure what you are seeing is not the effect of absorption AND utilisation within body as opposed to excretion via urine.
OK..I'm a pain, but it's how I read it..:-)
Jan
Posted by banga on March 27, 2005, at 20:16:37
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » banga, posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 12:21:14
Thanks for the abstracts...it get me SO riled up when I try to tell my father that his Centrum will simply not do the trick. But if the doc tells him Centrum is great, and Walgreens magnesium is just SO muych cheaper, he believes it.
Posted by tealady on March 28, 2005, at 2:58:02
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by banga on March 27, 2005, at 20:16:37
> Thanks for the abstracts...it get me SO riled up when I try to tell my father that his Centrum will simply not do the trick. But if the doc tells him Centrum is great, and Walgreens magnesium is just SO muych cheaper, he believes it.
Hi There, Before you get too upset, just want ya to know that I CAN notice a significant effect from magnesium oxide..and so can many many others I have spoken too...it works. It may or may not be as effective as magnesium with various anions ..but it does have an effect, so its not as bad as its made out maybe.
I've been wondering myself why it has such an effect seeing as it's not supposed to have in theory for a few years..
its only insoluble in water, our stomachs are acidic..so partly soluble there..and maybe with other foods etc, it may be even more soluble (or less).
Wish I understood it all better than I do, but I know MgO does work, at least to some extent , and depending on the cost you may even get more magnesium for buck in that form.
If I understood it all maybe even enzymes etc work on it..I sure don't know it all. I'd would be VERY interested in actual amount used figures(as in input-output)..not just amount in urine.My personal preference may be magnesium taurinate..but I have to buy that from the US.
NA in Oz, mostly MgO although citrate forms are coming in lately..usully mixed with MgO though..and Magnesium aspartate also.(not sure of that one but my Dad is taking it as the physio told my Mum to buy it..it was wrong for her though).
tea
Posted by ed_uk on March 28, 2005, at 16:30:36
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » banga, posted by tealady on March 28, 2005, at 2:58:02
Hi,
Has anyone ever taken or heard anything about magnesium glycerophosphate? I once read that magnesium was well absorbed in this form.
Ed.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on March 28, 2005, at 23:51:02
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Larry Hoover, posted by Sarah T. on March 27, 2005, at 5:48:36
> Hi Larry. When you say that you don't give a thought to the Calcium, do you mean that you don't take any Calcium supplements?
>
> Do you know what sort of psychotropic activity glycine has? I've done some searches on Taurine, but I'm not yet familiar with glycine's effects. I will look it up, but I'd be interested to hear your ideas about it as well. Also, what are the benefits of chelation? The label on the bottle of magnesium glycinate says, "Chelated Magnesium."Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 0:57:41
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by Mistermindmasta on March 28, 2005, at 23:51:02
> > > Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
Hi. Thanks for the information. I have to say that I'm quite surprised that it would be an agonist. I thought I remembered reading some threads here on NMDA antagonists, and Magnesium was listed. So, would you say that magnesium glycinate is a combination of an NMDA agonist and antagonist? I want to use magnesium primarily for the relaxation it provides at night.
Posted by Mistermindmasta on March 29, 2005, at 11:46:12
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey » Mistermindmasta, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 0:57:41
> > > > Glycine is a co-agonist of the NMDA receptor that glutamate often binds to. As I recall, increasing activity at this receptor might promote an increase in certain cognitive functions. Glycine is being tested as an add-on to antipsychotic meds for schizophrenia.
>
> Hi. Thanks for the information. I have to say that I'm quite surprised that it would be an agonist. I thought I remembered reading some threads here on NMDA antagonists, and Magnesium was listed. So, would you say that magnesium glycinate is a combination of an NMDA agonist and antagonist? I want to use magnesium primarily for the relaxation it provides at night.
Yeah, I guess you could say that it's an agonist and antagonist. It is kind of strange. Glycine is necessary for calcium to enter the cell whereas the magnesium blockade removal is necessary for calcium to enter the cell as well. I actually just read that a glycine reptake inhibitor was being tested for the cognitive deficits of schizophrenia.And just like every other receptor, NMDA receptor agonism is not inherently harmful, despite the idea that it might increase cell death. For example, increasing magnesium intake might somehow selectively decrease excitotoxic damage from glutamate whereas increasing glycine might selectively increase certain cognitive functions. That would be ideal. But to be honest, I don't know enough about all of this to make this assessment, but I can say with more certainty that NMDA receptors have many functions and agonists may be as useful as antagonists, but in different ways.
If I were to make a judgement on what physiological effects taking glycine (agonist) and magnesium (antagonist) would have, I would say that the result is not a net agonist or antagonist action. Rather, it would just be a nonspecific improvement of NMDA receptor function. The cell will do what it should be doing more often.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:22:55
In reply to Re: Magnesium survey, posted by Mistermindmasta on March 29, 2005, at 11:46:12
Thanks very much for your help. So, would you conclude that Magesium glycinate would be better than Magnesium Citrate for sleep, or vice versa? I feel as if I don't need the cognitive benefits of glycine while I'm sleeping, but perhaps there's enough carryover the following day?
Posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:57:07
In reply to Glycine NMDA agonismantagonism » Mistermindmasta, posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:22:55
The subject of the above message was supposed to read "Glycine NMDA agonism and antagonism." I used the ampersand symbol (&), and it didn't show up in the subject line.
Posted by LOOPS on March 30, 2005, at 19:03:22
In reply to Re: Glycine NMDA agonismantagonism » Sarah T., posted by Sarah T. on March 29, 2005, at 18:57:07
I think it works better than any of the others I've tried - but I only use it for athletics. I've been quite impressed with the orotate family of minerals generally.
Anybody try this?
Loops
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
In reply to I use magnesium orotate....for sport, posted by LOOPS on March 30, 2005, at 19:03:22
Hi Loops. Thank you. I'm not familiar with the orotate form. I will look it up.
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
In reply to Re: I use magnesium orotate....for sport » LOOPS, posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 1:54:05
have a look at lifelinknet.com - they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site. Gives an anecdotal experience with using calcium orotate for appetite supression, plus an overall article on the family of orotates and hans neiper.
I personally am not taking lithium orotate now on a daily basis, because after being on the fish oil for a while now, I find it makes me feel too calm and sluggish, even with one tablet. Now isn't that odd?? Before it was the difference between heaven and hell for me regarding anxiety management.
Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread guys - it is kinda relevant but not too much!
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
> have a look at www.lifelinknet.com
- they have a lot of articles pulling together recent research on various things (besides selling their own stuff). A very nice info site.Just looking around. Looks great. Thanks.
Not sure why I go worse on fish oil. Maybe one day I'll figure it out.
I have my Dad on it though..just 2 caps a day and salmon a couple of times a week.Jan
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
In reply to Good site Thanks » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 17:13:12
You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.
How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
Loops
Posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
In reply to fish oil (...again - sorry), posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 18:34:38
> You could have had a point before about B5 being depleted by fish oil. I have no idea. What I do know is that I take a B complex regularly, so maybe that helps.
> I recently read an article in the Sunday Times about treatment with high dose ethyl-epa on a 21 year old male with unresponsive depression. The brain scans after 6 months were impressive - his brain had literally grown in density. He was, however, also taking antidepressants (didn't say which ones). Anyway, the fish oil made him into a responder.
>
> They say human intellect was originally built on the ingestion of EPA/DHA + cholesterol.Ahh that explains my brain degradation...
Hi Loops:-)
I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)
http://www.wiley.com/legacy/college/boyer/0470003790/cutting_edge/viagra/viagra.htm
I'm sure there are better references out there, and It's all a bit beyond me..but that was where my suspicions about fish oil lie..similar symptoms, although not as profound.
NO I think binds like carbon monoxide(although not anywhere near the same extent) and cuts the binding of Oxygen to hemeglobin... this is all very vague and washed out in my brain..so I could be completely wrong, but I think that's what I remember.I'm one who always feels like there isn't enough oxygen..unless i",m out in the real fresh air relaxing.
NO is good stuff providing you don't have too much of it ..as with everything I guess.Maybe someone else who is interested in why fish oil works might be intersted in this line though..and can shoot me down if I'm on the wrong track please.
>
> How long did you try the fish oil for? Not that I'm debating how it affected you badly - I am sure it did - but my initial experience with it was it made everything a whole lot 'weirder/worse/better' to start with. Then I just thought hell, I'll keep taking it and it has got better.
>
over a year and with VitE..though only the alpha kind (with CoQ10 as well) and some EPO.> I'm not sure how much of a mood stabilizer it is - I know now it definitely stops me going into orbit or into the pit, but it doesn't sort out all my mental problems, at least not yet. All I want to do is to be able to react with some degree of normality to presented problems in my life.
>
> ah the rambling. Have you given the EPO/borage oil a shot? The amount of times I've heard doctors going on about how some people respond better to the EPO/B6 thing rather than omega-3. I just take both, as I fit into both borderline PD and mild bipolar (not that I want to fit into any category really!).
>Yes, I'm one who loves B6 (especially enteric P5P) and loves EPO..my 2 favourite supps for many years..ofh and zinc too. That should maybe indicate pyroluria? but I can't get tested for it..my urine is not pink or anything like that though.
tea
Posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 19:52:04
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
I love P-5-P and zinc as well. In fact I've been on zinc for a number of years, well before I got any sort of knowledge about nutrition and vitamins.
I was unwillingly sent to a Christian therapist by my darling well-intentioned Mother whilst suffering severely from bulimia in my teenage years. The best thing she ever did was give me a 'taste' zinc test, and immediately give me a big bottle of liquid zinc, which I took every day for the next two months. There was much improvement. I think I must have been extremely deficient (well, that's common with bulimics).
Alas, I did not continue the treatment, but remember vividly during college starting to take Centrum (which has 15mg zinc) and feeling better. I have taken zinc ever since, but in larger doses.
I don't take the P5P every day - I think I'm scared it's efficacy will wear off or some silly notion if I take it all the time. I save it for when I'm feeling anxious mixed-up horrid PMSy.
There is a possibility I have destroyed some of my absorption abilities in my stomach through years of purging - which would explain why I can't make P5P - or maybe. There's just no way of telling.
Interesting about the NO. Interestingly, one of the first things I noticed from taking the fish oil was a re-emergence of my long-dormant sex-drive, much to my husband's delight. I originally put this down to reintroducing saturated fat and animal products to my diet (which followed immediately after taking the fish oil - realizing a vegan diet was not obviously optimal for me), but now I think it is the fish oil.
Anwyay with the EPO, I have found taking borage oil has cleared up some psoriasis on my eyebrows. I think it's true about taking fish oil with GLA source to combat inflammation. I think this because long ago I bought a huge tub of EPO to combat really horrible eczema I had whilst in an even more horrid job. It didn't work. In fact the eczema got worse and I was taking a lot of EPO. I then bought fish oil, and unwittingly took this INSTEAD of the EPO, not knowing the theory. Again, no improvement. Pity, as I did notice mood improvement after the fish oil. If only I'd known to combine these two.
Loops
Posted by Sarah T. on March 31, 2005, at 23:11:48
In reply to mag orotate, posted by LOOPS on March 31, 2005, at 9:19:45
Hi LOOPS. Thank you for that link.
Posted by Larry Hoover on April 10, 2005, at 11:23:55
In reply to Re: fish oil , NO, EPO » LOOPS, posted by tealady on March 31, 2005, at 19:18:08
> I suspect its that fish oil maybe causes a rise in NO
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8041151&dopt=Abstract
> and I suspect I have too much already of that(lots of posts on here back in Sept-Nov 2003 I suspect on here when I was having a lot of difficulty with it I suspect or something t do with it anyway)...whereas other people don't have enough...hence the popularity of Viagra :-)Ah, but this is macrophage NO production. These are white blood "killer" cells, and they use NO to destroy targetted cells/invaders. I don't see this as a generalized increase in NO synthesis. This was entirely a study of macrophage response to prostaglandins/activation.
Lar
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