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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 34 to 58 of 112. Go back in thread:
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 9:07:44
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
Hi Elaine,
I told you I'd report back about getting the Vit D from my doc. Well, she's being conservative (why am I not surprised) and won't prescribe high doses for depression, only for 'active osteoporosis'. She also won't test me for it, saying it's expensive and my insurance won't pick it up. Sigh, and here I thought, hoped, I'd found a liberated GP a cut above the rest.So I'm going to just do it myself. Any suggestions on what brand to get and how much to supplement? You mentioned D2 only and not D3. Just curious what the difference is as applies to depression. Thanks for informing us of this important topic. How is your daughter doing these days? - Barbara
Posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » Elainep, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 9:07:44
Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
Ray
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 11:52:17
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
That was an interesting article. I went to the Biotics website. They have a promising looking emulsified D3 product in drops. BUT you have to be a 'licenced provider' to order it. Any suggestions on where to get Biotics products elsewhere? Thanks.
> Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
>
> http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
>
> Ray
Posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 12:23:59
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 11:52:17
This site seems to supply US customers...
Ray
Posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:13:08
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
Hi Ray,
Interesting article , thanks.
Yes, it's Vit D3.
Hope your going well. Nice to "hear from you" again.
It's Easter holidays now for me, but I still have a lot to catch up on.
Jan
Posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:25:20
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by Elainep on March 13, 2005, at 15:57:42
Thanks for posting this Elaine.
It's uplifting to hear success stories at least occassionally. I'm so pleased you found the cause.Personally spending a lot of time in the sun and living in Queensland a lot I don't think VitD is my problem..but if I lived in NZ or England or Canada, I suspect I'd need some too, especially if I didn't spend most of the time outdoors.
It would be great if everyone had PTH, VitD, and calcium/phosphorous blood tests taken FIRST before being offered antiD's by their docs wouldn't it. I could think of a few other tests as well, like iron/ferritin and thryoid(TSH, FT4)/thyroid antibodies, sigh.
Anyway thanks, I really enjoyed reading of your success.
Jan
Posted by KaraS on March 24, 2005, at 17:44:22
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 12:23:59
Hi Ray,
Good to see you posting again! Hope all is well with you.
Kara
Posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 18:23:48
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » Elainep, posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:25:20
My doc changed her mind and won't give me the tests and won't prescribe the 100,000IU dose I'd been hoping for (suggested I 'take 400mg since I don't have osteoporosis - it's the RDA'. Here I was hoping I'd found an enlightened primary care doc. They don't seem to exist, do they?).
My question: Is there something magical about the 100,000 and up dosing to eradicate depression as Elaine's daughter experienced? I can imagine it as a sort of Vitamin/hormone reset button. What are thoughts about lower doses, i.e., the 4,000IU alot of practitioners are promoting? What's so special about this dosage?
I live in the rainy NorthWest and would be surprised if I'm not deficient. I have depression, fibromyalgia symptoms, bone and muscle pain. I would LOVE IT if this were a small answer to my prayers. I ordered the Biotics emulsified forte drops (thanks for the tip, Ray) at 2,000mg a drop and plan on experimenting.
Without the tests I won't go too high, but any ideas on what to look for along the way? How long to expect an improvement at less than a super high kick-start dose? Any noticeable symptoms to watch out for that could be related to too much D3? I'll find another doctor to be sure, but in the meantime I've wasted too much time to rely on their largesse if this might help me.
I've waded through the literature, but would appreciate getting opinions from this board's esteemed members. Thanks for being in my world, thou most respected and enquiring minds. - Barbara
Posted by raybakes on March 26, 2005, at 4:14:11
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by tealady on March 24, 2005, at 17:13:08
Hi Jan and Kara, haven't posted for while, been totally absorbed working on my family tree, but the vitamin D caught my attention! Hope you're both well.
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:06:43
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by TamaraJ on March 10, 2005, at 13:03:45
> I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
>
> Thanks.
>
> TamaraHere's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:08:08
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 24, 2005, at 9:33:43
> Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
>
> http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
>
> RayMr. Ray Bakes!
Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:11:26
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression - Questions, posted by barbaracat on March 24, 2005, at 18:23:48
> My doc changed her mind and won't give me the tests and won't prescribe the 100,000IU dose I'd been hoping for (suggested I 'take 400mg since I don't have osteoporosis - it's the RDA'. Here I was hoping I'd found an enlightened primary care doc. They don't seem to exist, do they?).
>
> My question: Is there something magical about the 100,000 and up dosing to eradicate depression as Elaine's daughter experienced? I can imagine it as a sort of Vitamin/hormone reset button. What are thoughts about lower doses, i.e., the 4,000IU alot of practitioners are promoting? What's so special about this dosage?I posted a good link for the 4000 IU level. Here it is again:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
Just for the record, I found articles describing *pediatric* (consider body weight) treatments with 600,000 IU in one treatment.
It is looking like there is no absolute upper level, but that chronic excess intake can disturb calcium homeostasis.
Lar
Posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » TamaraJ, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:06:43
> > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Tamara
>
> Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
>
> http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
>
> Lar
>
Hi Lar,Good to see you back posting again.
I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))
AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?
BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)
JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.
As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.
BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
Jan
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 27, 2005, at 7:47:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by tealady on March 26, 2005, at 17:22:12
> > > I, too, am interested in the protocol, and what is a safe amount to take on a daily basis.
> > >
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Tamara
> >
> > Here's a full-text link to an article establishing the safety and efficacy of 4000 IU/day.
> >
> > http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=15260882
> >
> > Lar
> >
> Hi Lar,
>
> Good to see you back posting again.Thanks. So am I. I missed me, too.
> I took a quick look at that link , but I can't reach the conclusion (as you seem to?) that it's safe for everyone (or even most people) to take 100mcg VitD3a day long term.
If you looked at the references (hotlinked to some full-text articles, even), you'd see prior work establishing that 100 µg is indeed a physiologic (normal) dose of vitamin E.
> I CAN reach the conclusion that for those living in cold climates (like near Toronto :-))The body has an amazing capacity to store vitamin D, which is how summertime production can more or less get one through the winter. However, with sunscreen and indoor jobs and all that, summertime production is severely limited. Even air conditioning should be considered, as an independent variable. It keeps people indoors.
There's a key quotation in this article: "Future studies of vitamin D supplementation should take into account that it may take a year to reach stable 25(OH)D levels. Although previous work (including our own) has implied that plateau levels of 25(OH)D can occur within five months [5,37], the impression of a plateau reflects the time pattern of sampling; i.e. samples taken at short time intervals can give a false impression of a plateau."
> AND having below range (LOW) 25(OH)D levels to start with , maybe due to not enough exposure to sunlight..or poor absorption , anyway for some reason tending to be low in 25(OH) D and with normal levels of PTH and ionized calcium..then Yes supplementing for a year on 100mcgD3 doesn't seem to hurt.
Just as with thyroid hormones, I would argue that what has been taken to be "normal" PTH is subject to question.
> Actually it doesn't seem to not make too much more difference than just taking 15mcg a day, at least as far as effect on ionized calcium and PTH., although there again I preferred the long term effects of 15mcg on PTH, the 100mcg long term may possibly be suppressing PTH? ..suppressing "hormoan stuff" is not usually a great thing to do long term :-)..unless you really know what your about
Considering that these guys are endocrinologists, I might hazard a guess that they've done their homework. There is a lot of excellent data available through the hotlinks in the references. Check reference 7.
> The 25(OH)D is increased for sure, but I'm not exactly sure what other effects that would have long term on the body.
25(OH)D is also a neuromodulator. It directly affects mood. There are vitamin D receptors, and enzymes dedicated to receive it, in the brain.
> So strange that I would read that article and conclude, yes start off on a higher dose over the first winter ..say 2 or 3 months ..and then reduce long term intake to the minimal required to maintain optimim ionized calcium and PTH etc...perhaps say < 20mcg daily?Certainly, it does require some individual consideration of other sources, but again, from the linked references, you can find evidence that the daily vitamin D flux is at (or above) 100 µg/day. There are blessed few dietary sources of vitamin D. Vitamin D was only recognized as a vitamin when people took a look at how cod liver oil helped treat rickets. We weren't yet sophisticated enough to recognize that it wasn't a vitamin, but rather a hormone, but in any case, exogenous sources of vitamin D are really quite rare. When's the last time you caught a cod and selected its liver from the entrails?
> BTW My own calcium (and corrected) calcium levels are now usually about 2.50 (2.43)mmol/L or so. Do you know if there is way of converting these to ionized calcium..or is it a completely different measurement? (understand Ca++ ions)That, I don't know (the conversion). The normal is 4.4-5.3 mg/dL, for ionized (free) calcium.
> JUst in case his post gives you the wrong impression, I am PRO vitD3 supplementation in colder climates..I'd be doing the same if I lived in one..I even took a tiny dose cod liver oil in England in summer when I was over there :-))
How much sun do you get?
> I just don't think this article is suggesting higher doses is safe for most..or shows that there is a benefit from a larger dose long term.There is some room for interpretation, but the current RDA/DRI levels are ridiculously low. Persons with mood disorders, which keep them largely indoors (like myself), ought to be taking substantial vitamin D supps, IMHO. Long-term supplementation with 100 µg (4000 IU)/day did not result in a single instance of adverse effects, despite their being no restrictions placed on the subjects with respect to potential alternate sources of this nutrient.
> As with all supps, intake should be based on how it makes you feel, and I always go for the minimal dose to achieve this.That's fair. Wellbeing measures were higher in the high-dose group.
> BTW that study also only dosed once a week (I think) ..and then divided by 7 to get the daily dose. This is making an assumption..probably correct (but unknown really) as different results are obtained in some studies with some supps by giving larger weekly doses or the "equivalent" daily doses...maybe to do with absorption etc.
>
> JanI appreciate your questioning of the underlying assumptions in this study. Yes, a once-a-week dosing paradigm might lead to different outcomes than a daily dose providing the same net amount. However, that is exactly the assumption made in determinations of all nutrient intakes; average weekly intake, divided by seven.
Lar
Posted by raybakes on March 28, 2005, at 5:47:11
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 26, 2005, at 11:08:08
> > Hi, thought it was D3 rather than D2? Anyway Biotics make a good D3. I personally get on really well with Allergy Research's liver glandular too - as vitamin D is activated in the liver, I wonder it's helping me in that area?
> >
> > http://optimalhealthresearch.com/updates/Chap16vitD.pdf
> >
> > Ray
>
> Mr. Ray Bakes!
>
> Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
>
> Lar
>
>Thanks Lar! I've been totally absorbed with my family tree since christmas. Still doing really well with all my methyl factors/donors and combining it with a liver glandular from allergy research, seems to heighten the positive effect. Do you think there would be much vitamin D in a beef liver glandular?
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by raybakes on March 28, 2005, at 5:47:11
> > Where have you been? You have been missed, sir.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> >
>
> Thanks Lar! I've been totally absorbed with my family tree since christmas. Still doing really well with all my methyl factors/donors and combining it with a liver glandular from allergy research, seems to heighten the positive effect. Do you think there would be much vitamin D in a beef liver glandular?
>
> RayI have no idea what might be in a liver glandular. I used to work at a health food warehouse (long before I realized what was the point of having this stuff available), and we used to sell dessicated liver powders. All I remember is the yuck that got all over us when we were packaging that stuff.
So, re: geneology. Are you going to tell us what famous ancestors turned up in this search, or what?
Lar
Posted by mystery road on March 29, 2005, at 18:54:45
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
Just a follow up to my post almost 3 weeks ago..I've been doing 4000iu Vit D3/day and feeling remarkably better..Anger is just about non-existent and I actually feel a sense of calm.It's helped to pull me out of a major depression.I really didn't expect this much of a benefit..I'll now go and have my levels checked..Can some one recommend a site for a d3 check?..Thanks.
MR
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2005, at 23:09:33
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression, posted by mystery road on March 29, 2005, at 18:54:45
> Just a follow up to my post almost 3 weeks ago..I've been doing 4000iu Vit D3/day and feeling remarkably better..Anger is just about non-existent and I actually feel a sense of calm.It's helped to pull me out of a major depression.I really didn't expect this much of a benefit..I'll now go and have my levels checked..Can some one recommend a site for a d3 check?..Thanks.
>
> MRAny doctor can order the test. For the results to be meaningful, discontinue all vitamin D supps at least 7 days before having blood drawn.
Lar
Posted by barbaracat on March 29, 2005, at 23:40:36
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » mystery road, posted by Larry Hoover on March 29, 2005, at 23:09:33
I need a reality check. Is the Vit D test expensive? My doctor did an about face on the Vit D issue. She'd been to a seminar about it, was all excited about high dosing for my mood disorder and just wanted to get more info before prescribing it. Next time I saw her, she said high dosing was only indicated for active osteoporosis and I should just take the standard 400IU. I said, 'well, is it worthwhile to at least get a blood level?' and she said 'oh, the test is too expensive, and doesn't tell you anything useful. Just get more sunlight'. Yeah, right, I live in the rainy NorthWest!
It left me with a weird feeling and I don't know what to think. I can't imagine the test is that expensive, and even if it is, it's my money. She's probably doing a CYA for legal reasons, but what a strange thing. So, I ordered the Biotics 2,000IU brand and am back to being my own doctor, but jeez, I'd prefer to do this with a bit more caution. Sigh. Are there ANY decent docs out there? Or is 'decent doc' an oxymoron under managed care? - BCat
> Any doctor can order the test. For the results to be meaningful, discontinue all vitamin D supps at least 7 days before having blood drawn.
>
> Lar
>
Posted by mystery road on March 30, 2005, at 5:36:01
In reply to Vit D and weird doc, posted by barbaracat on March 29, 2005, at 23:40:36
> I need a reality check. Is the Vit D test expensive? My doctor did an about face on the Vit D issue. She'd been to a seminar about it, was all excited about high dosing for my mood disorder and just wanted to get more info before prescribing it. Next time I saw her, she said high dosing was only indicated for active osteoporosis and I should just take the standard 400IU. I said, 'well, is it worthwhile to at least get a blood level?' and she said 'oh, the test is too expensive, and doesn't tell you anything useful. Just get more sunlight'. Yeah, right, I live in the rainy NorthWest!
>
> It left me with a weird feeling and I don't know what to think. I can't imagine the test is that expensive, and even if it is, it's my money. She's probably doing a CYA for legal reasons, but what a strange thing. So, I ordered the Biotics 2,000IU brand and am back to being my own doctor, but jeez, I'd prefer to do this with a bit more caution. Sigh. Are there ANY decent docs out there? Or is 'decent doc' an oxymoron under managed care? - BCatBCat..
I say, why wait?..If your going through depression and need some relief, just try this on your own..Give it a few weeks and see if it helps you..If it helps and then you go to a doc and tell them what you've been doing, they'll likely prescribe the test..The risk to reward is in your favor..
MR
Posted by raybakes on March 30, 2005, at 9:07:13
In reply to Re: Vitamin D and depression » raybakes, posted by Larry Hoover on March 28, 2005, at 10:30:33
> I have no idea what might be in a liver glandular. I used to work at a health food warehouse (long before I realized what was the point of having this stuff available), and we used to sell dessicated liver powders. All I remember is the yuck that got all over us when we were packaging that stuff.
>
> So, re: geneology. Are you going to tell us what famous ancestors turned up in this search, or what?
>
> Lar
>
>No one famous, sadly! just carpenters, blacksmiths, porters and shipbuilders from London mainly, but also Germany, France and Scotland.
Ray
Posted by barbaracat on March 30, 2005, at 17:34:37
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by mystery road on March 30, 2005, at 5:36:01
Oh, I'm not waiting. I've started taking 4,000IU daily, may bump it up depending on how I feel but. I generally take these matter into my own hands anyway. I'm feeling frustrated at the sorry condition of medical care and how much I have to pay in insurance premiums for the priviledge.
> I say, why wait?..If your going through depression and need some relief, just try this on your own..Give it a few weeks and see if it helps you..If it helps and then you go to a doc and tell them what you've been doing, they'll likely prescribe the test..The risk to reward is in your favor..
>
> MR
>
>
>
Posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc » mystery road, posted by barbaracat on March 30, 2005, at 17:34:37
Hi Barbaracat and MR
Sorry to hear your trials and tribulations with your doctor Barbaracat. I can't believe the medical profession: they seem to have an inbuilt resistance to the idea of vit D. I was at a party the other night and chatting to a GP who didn't believe me when I told her my daughter had been vit D deficient. She was so disbelieving it wasn't funny. In New Zealand? Hah.
I'd listen to MR on this one, start supplementing and tell your doctor eventually that you're doing it so she'll be forced to test you out of worry. I don't think the blood test is anything out of the ordinary, and especially if you're willing to pay for it! What's wrong with your doc?
Congratulations MR: sounds like Vit D may well be at the root of all your biochemistry problems, just like it was for my daughter. I'm sure you're not imagining the changes!!!! I've been directly emailing one of your other members about vit D and he's been tested and came back really low so is about to megadose.
By the way, turns out the megadose was a form of vit D2 for my daughters called calcifediol. And it was 3 mcg? or about 120,000 iu. They don't have therapuetic doses of D3. Just to set the record straight on that one.
Barbaracat, too many of your symptoms sound vit D related to me: that whole fibromyaglia thing as well as your depression, plus your mom having ricketts, plus the good ole rainy pacific northwest. So good for you for dosing up anyway, follow MR's advice and threaten and cajole once you're taking it to get your doctor worried enough to get you tested.
Anyway it's great to know that vit D has proved so helpful to you MR: I hope others of you out there are paying attention and thinking of giving it a try. Let me reiterate that your symptoms don't have to be classic SAD in the winter type stuff to have a vit D deficiency: it can be unipolar or bipolar, it can happen in the summer, whatever. Your vit D levels go down over time and if you're just not getting enough sun for whatever reason, it can show up at any time. Remember Vit D impacts the adrenal glands and stops them working properly, so your moods are not being regulated the way they should, and who knows how that looks in terms of an individual's symptoms.
Good luck MR! And Barbaracat I hope you show some signs of improvement once you start dosing: I'm sure you sound like a good case for vit D doing a lot of good.
Bye now
Elainep
Posted by barbaracat on April 3, 2005, at 20:58:19
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
HI Elaine,
My husband and I have started on Biotics Forte, which is an emulsified Vit D at 2,000UI a drop. I've started on 4 drops, or 8,000IU and will see how it goes. A question for you - did your daughter take only 1 megadose and then supplemented on a daily basis with a higher than normal dose?Also, can you provide more info on adrenals and D? The adrenal connection is a particular interest of mine. They go through alot of wear and tear through stress and anrenal fatigue impacts the entire hormonal system. The story is that if the adrenals are compromised, the thyroid will continue to suffer even if TSH values are supposedly normal. Being hypothyroid, another little Vitamin D bell just rang.
Posted by mystery road on April 4, 2005, at 9:36:19
In reply to Re: Vit D and weird doc, posted by Elainep on April 3, 2005, at 16:46:37
So far, so good Elaine..Thanks.
I'll keep posting as things progress..Especially as we start to see some sunlight on the east coast..Its been very sunless here for a long time..MR
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