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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 18, 2005, at 20:19:36
I've known quite a few people who've benefited from acupuncture for arthritis and other types of pain. What about acupuncture for lowering cortisol? I have high cortisol and have tried various traditional and alternative meds in an attempt to lower it, all to no avail. I'm at my wits' end and am seriously considering trying acupuncture. Has anyone here tried it for this purpose? If you haven't tried it, have you heard of or read about anyone having success with this method?
Posted by Phillipa on March 18, 2005, at 20:25:36
In reply to Acupuncture???, posted by Sarah T. on March 18, 2005, at 20:19:36
I don't know about cortisol levels. But, I know two people who use accupuncturists. One uses one for breast cancer to avoid a reoccurance, and the other goes weekly for face lifts. She looks at least l5yrs younger than she is. The other runs 5miles a day, does yoga two hours a day, and lifts wts. Both speak highly of it. You need to make sure you get recommendations of who is good first. And it's out of pocket. Fondly, Phillipa
Posted by Sarah T. on March 19, 2005, at 2:10:41
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by Phillipa on March 18, 2005, at 20:25:36
Hi Phillippa. Thanks for your reply. I just did a very quick search on acupuncture and cortisol. In the very few studies I skimmed through, it looks as if acupuncture actually raised cortisol levels, and when treating pain, cortisol's anti-inflammatory effects would be helpful. I will have to do a more thorough study of this. I think I'd have to look for differences in the immediate vs. long-term effects of acupuncture. For example, perhaps cortisol levels would be raised momentarily after acupuncture, but perhaps they'd be lowered over the long term? I'm just speculating. I'll have to read up on it.
Posted by TamaraJ on March 19, 2005, at 12:45:32
In reply to Acupuncture???, posted by Sarah T. on March 18, 2005, at 20:19:36
Hi Sarah,
Hi have had accupuncture treatments in the past (last year, I did weekly treatments for a number of months). I don't know if accupuncture can lower corisol, but what I found was that I was very relaxed and calm, yet energized after a treatment. And, this feeling would last for days after a treatment. Accupuncture is supposed to be quite effective for depression and anxiety. It usually takes a few visits for a person experiencing a marked improvement/response. I probably would have responded much better had I not been severely iron deficient at the time. I am currently seeing an alternative doctor (he is Vietnamise, and is trained in Western medicine [orthopedic surgeon}, who now runs a small clinic where he employs accupuncture. He is quite well-known and highly respected where I live (even physicians go to him for treatment), and he has a very good success rate in terms of treating people with a wide range of disorders and illnesses.
Accupuncture is certainly worth a try. It was not terribly expensive for me. The person I saw last year charged only $30 for a treatment (and my insurance covered 80%, up to about $500). A treatment sometimes lasted close to one hour (if she did accupuncture on both the front and the back).
Tamara
> I've known quite a few people who've benefited from acupuncture for arthritis and other types of pain. What about acupuncture for lowering cortisol? I have high cortisol and have tried various traditional and alternative meds in an attempt to lower it, all to no avail. I'm at my wits' end and am seriously considering trying acupuncture. Has anyone here tried it for this purpose? If you haven't tried it, have you heard of or read about anyone having success with this method?
Posted by Sarah T. on March 21, 2005, at 2:29:24
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by TamaraJ on March 19, 2005, at 12:45:32
Hi Tamara. Thanks very much for your reply. I'm going to try to get Pfinstegg's attention. Pfinstegg is another PB poster who knows a lot about cortisol and ways to lower it. I want to ask her whether she's had any experience with using acupuncture in an attempt to lower highly elevated cortisol levels.
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 21, 2005, at 7:30:06
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » TamaraJ, posted by Sarah T. on March 21, 2005, at 2:29:24
Hi- here I am! I don't know what effects, if any, acupuncture has on lowering cortisol. When I have a little more time, I'll do a literature search. too. I have seen two articles with good data showing that massages lower 24-hour cortisol for 3-4 days.
How much higher than normal is your 24-hour cortisol? Do you have the normal pattern of high in the morning and low at midnight? (easy to do with salivary tests). It's very good that you are a DST suppressor. That means, to me, that you do not have a very overactive HPA axis which never turns off. If you are turning off your CRF-ACTH towards evening and night, you are protecting your hippocampus and allowing it to create new cells, at least during those parts of the day.
Posted by Chris O on March 21, 2005, at 15:21:17
In reply to Acupuncture???, posted by Sarah T. on March 18, 2005, at 20:19:36
I gave accupuncture a serious go in 2002 for my anxiety and depression. I went three times a week for four months. While I don't know if it provided cortisol reduction, it did give me a mild anti-anxiety, anti-depressant effect for several hours after the treatment, so I am assuming that it lowered my cortisol in some way. However, as to the accupuncturist's claims that there was some type of "build up" over time (you know, like the treatments somehow balanced my system over a period of time), I don't think that is true. I just think that accupuncture somehow helps release
neurotransmitters somehow, kind of like a mild SSRI. It's worth a try, me thinks.Good luck,
Chris> I've known quite a few people who've benefited from acupuncture for arthritis and other types of pain. What about acupuncture for lowering cortisol? I have high cortisol and have tried various traditional and alternative meds in an attempt to lower it, all to no avail. I'm at my wits' end and am seriously considering trying acupuncture. Has anyone here tried it for this purpose? If you haven't tried it, have you heard of or read about anyone having success with this method?
Posted by Sarah T. on March 21, 2005, at 18:24:54
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by Chris O on March 21, 2005, at 15:21:17
Hi Chris, Yes, I think acupuncture is worth a try. I've heard such positive reports about it from friends who use it for other disorders, especially for pain. And, as you can see from some of the reports on this thread, people are benefiting from it in other ways, too. Can you imagine a botox-free, surgery-free face-lift?
Posted by Sarah T. on March 21, 2005, at 18:47:16
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by Pfinstegg on March 21, 2005, at 7:30:06
Hi Pfinstegg,
Thank you very much for your reply. I have had consistently elevated 24-hour urinary free cortisol over many years, regardless of which medicine I've been on -- or off. It doesn't matter whether I'm on medicine or not on medicine,or whether the medicine is activating or calming. My last 24-hour urinary cortisol was close to 125 (I forgot the units; I think they were micrograms per 24 hours, but I'll have to double check that). The normal range is 10(or 20)-100 micrograms/24 hours. I think anything above 120 is considered to be in the Cushing's range, but I don't appear at all Cushingoid. I have, however, had a lot of hair loss in the past 6 months or so. I still don't know why that is occurring. I've had some inconsistent TSH values and perfectly normal androgens. I read that hair loss in Cushing's is usually temporal. My hair loss has not been from the temples; it's mainly occurring on the top of my head, towards the back.
I just did another 24-hour urine collection, but I haven't gotten the results yet. I'm uncertain how my cortisol levels are at specific points throughout the day because most of the tests have been of the 24-hour type; however, my plasma cortisol levels have always been normal, and almost all of them have been drawn in the morning. Do Cushing's patients have abnormal dexamethasone suppression tests? As I mentioned, mine have always been normal.
Posted by Pfinstegg on March 21, 2005, at 23:40:59
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Pfinstegg, posted by Sarah T. on March 21, 2005, at 18:47:16
The DST test is used at the 1 mg. dosage to detect HPA axis overactivity, which does lead to anxiety, depression and loss of hippocampal neurons. To detect Cushing's Disease, it is often used at higher dosages- 2,8 even 25 mg.. A positive finding of DST non-suppression at these higher doses is strongly correlated with Cushing's disease. But, as you probably know, Cushing's Disease itself can arise from several sources- a pituitary tumor, one in the adrenals, or an "ectopic" one- adrenal tissue is some other part of the body. These tumors are very often, although not always, benign. The fact that you have DST suppression- presumably at the 1 mg. dose, really rules out Cushing's Disease. Do you have a lot of anxiety/depression, and/or a lot of present life stresses? I think if I were in your position, I would do a morning and evening salivary cortisol, and and would also just watch the 24-hour cortisols. They are above normal, but not to the point of any clear-cut diagnosis. The hair loss pattern isn't typical for Cushing's. Could it be caused by any medication you are taking?
It really sounds like everything is pretty normal except for the slightly elevated urinary cortisols. I do think it's good to continue your search to make sure they eventually fall into the normal range. Would a different endocrine consult help? Over the last few years there have been a lot of suggestions on the medication and alternative boards for ways to do this- Phosphadatyserine comes to mind, but I know there are a number of other measures. Each might help a little.
Posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 0:43:27
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by Pfinstegg on March 21, 2005, at 23:40:59
Hi Pfinstegg. So, you think that a 24-hour urinary free cortisol of 125 isn't too bad? That's interesting. I thought it must be bad because 100 is the upper limit of normal, and I've had values like this for years. This is not an isolated occurrence. As long as I've been tested for urinary free cortisol, the values have never been below 100. Before they started testing for urinary cortisol, they tested for 17-ketosteroids. Those were elevated, too.
When I've had the DST, I've taken 1 mg of dexamethasone the night before.
Yes, I do have a lot of anxiety, depression and stress in my life, and the external stressors are unlikely to change soon. I am not currently on any medication that should be causing the elevated cortisol or the hair loss, and over the years, I've found that whether I have been medicated or medication-free, the cortisol levels have been quite consistent. And, as I mentioned previously, it didn't matter whether I was on an activating medicine or a tranquilizing one. The urinary cortisol levels were always above
120. Although I've had the elevated cortisol for years, the hair loss has occurred within the last six months or so.Have you ever tried Phosphatidylserine? If so, did you take it at night? I asked that question of another poster yesterday, and I'm interested to hear what others have to say. Do you take fish oil? If so, do you think it helps? Have you ever heard of spironolactone being used to suppress cortisol? I know that it is an anti-androgen, and until a few days ago, I'd never heard of it being used as an anti-cortisol drug. Someone suggested it to me the other day. When I looked it up on PubMed, nearly every citation I found suggested that sprinolactone can actually increase cortisol levels.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on one other idea. I have a lot of difficulty metabolizing medications and I'm quite certain that I have some genetic polymorphisms for the CYP 450 enzymes. Do you think it is possible that my elevated cortisol might be caused by a similar problem, such as the inability of my liver enzymes to thoroughly break down cortisol, just as they inefficiently and inadequately break down nearly every antidepressant I've ever tried?
Posted by tealady on March 23, 2005, at 3:41:12
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Pfinstegg, posted by Sarah T. on March 22, 2005, at 0:43:27
Hi Sarah,
I agree with Pf that you really need a 4 times a day saliva test for cortisol to see what is happening. As she said, if you are still dropping at night you are probably reasonable..if fact excellent if you are under all that stress. (its what a body in great shape should do).
The problem arises that most people's bodies can't hold out like that under stress forever and end up kinda breaking down..then your cortisol drops..which is what you don't want to happen.
So before deciding anything, I'd get a saliva cortisol 4 times a day test and try whatever you can to reduce the stress.
I know..almost impossible without radical changes and letting people down etc.
Hope I'm just backing up what Pf is saying here.Sorry I don't know any more..I now have not enough cortisol under stress(which doesn't take much) due to many years of high stress.
I actually had accupuncture to increase my cortisol in February.(and it did for a while too!)
The other thing that may be causing high levels of cortisol is your bodies immune system naturally (and properly) raising cortisol to fight antibodies. Some people have managed to reduce cortisol and now regret it as their bodies now suffer from immune disorders e.g.autoimmune conditions which one's bodies may have got on top of. I can't remember where I read this, but google on cortisol high and autoimmune or something similar and you may find something.
Jan
Posted by Sarah T. on March 24, 2005, at 21:36:29
In reply to Re: Acupuncture??? » Sarah T., posted by tealady on March 23, 2005, at 3:41:12
Hi tealady. Thanks very much for your advice. Have you had your cortisol levels checked recently? Are they still too low? Were they checked via the saliva tests, blood tests or 24-hour urine collection? I do think your idea about having those tests throughout the day is an excellent one. What's the matter with my doctors that they don't order it? This is so frustrating!
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