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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 5 of 5. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tooooja on February 14, 2005, at 11:07:50
Hi,
Does anybody know anything about biounavailable copper??
This is an idea that mainly seems to come from hair tissue analysis people. They say it's a situation where paradoxically the body is in a state of copper deficiency and excess at the same time. A person gets into this state because they don't produce adequate amounts of ceruloplasmin(a protein carrier for copper) and free ionic copper floats around in the blood, in a state the body cannot use. The ionic copper then causes various types of disruption and ends up being stored in body tissue like the brain and liver where it dissrupts the organs function.
The list of symptoms for this condition is pretty large including as you'd expect symptoms of both excess and deficient copper. Unfortunatley after a lot of scouting on the web, the only info I can turn up on this is by hair analysis people. So I am a bit doubtful of it's authenticity, since I am lacking any corroboration. Do any of you guys know anything about this.
P.S. It's said to be a very prevalent condition in modern society, stemming from weakened adrenal glands which stimulate ceruloplasmin production. Typical symptoms are, fatigue, depression, anxiety, insomnia, poor concentration - the usual suspects.
Posted by Larry Hoover on February 14, 2005, at 19:06:38
In reply to Biounavailable Copper, posted by Tooooja on February 14, 2005, at 11:07:50
> Hi,
>
> Does anybody know anything about biounavailable copper??
>
> This is an idea that mainly seems to come from hair tissue analysis people. They say it's a situation where paradoxically the body is in a state of copper deficiency and excess at the same time. A person gets into this state because they don't produce adequate amounts of ceruloplasmin(a protein carrier for copper) and free ionic copper floats around in the blood, in a state the body cannot use. The ionic copper then causes various types of disruption and ends up being stored in body tissue like the brain and liver where it dissrupts the organs function.
>
> The list of symptoms for this condition is pretty large including as you'd expect symptoms of both excess and deficient copper. Unfortunatley after a lot of scouting on the web, the only info I can turn up on this is by hair analysis people. So I am a bit doubtful of it's authenticity, since I am lacking any corroboration. Do any of you guys know anything about this.
>
> P.S. It's said to be a very prevalent condition in modern society, stemming from weakened adrenal glands which stimulate ceruloplasmin production. Typical symptoms are, fatigue, depression, anxiety, insomnia, poor concentration - the usual suspects.My initial reaction is hogus-bogus. Ceruloplasmin is a liver-based enzyme, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with adrenals, as far as I recall. Moreover, ceruloplasmin deficiency shows as a major disturbance in ferritin levels, as ceruloplasmin is a key participant in iron metabolism. And those "typical symptoms" are neither related to copper deficiency nor excess. Hair analysis alone raises a red flag. Problem is, my key reference site webserver is down right now.
Let me verify my impressions, and I'll get back to you.
Lar
Posted by Tooooja on February 16, 2005, at 5:21:36
In reply to Re: Biounavailable Copper » Tooooja, posted by Larry Hoover on February 14, 2005, at 19:06:38
Hi,
I've done a search on pubmed to see if there's anythong on ceruloplasmin adrenal interaction and it's turned up these results, see what u think:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6251525
"Response of caeruloplasmin to Escherichia coli endotoxins and adrenal hormones in the domestic fowl.
Curtis MJ, Butler EJ.
The injection of chickens with Escherichia coli endotoxins immediately produced a 50 per cent rise in plasma caeruloplasmin activity which was attributed to the release of the protein from liver cell. This was followed by a fall in activity, which was probably due to a fall in activity, which was probably due to a stabilising effect of adrenocortical hormones on the cell membranes, and then by a five-fold increase. The results of experiments with cycloheximide, adrenocorticotrophin, beta-methasone and reserpine indicated that the third phase of the response reflected increased synthesis in the liver which was partly induced by adrenal hormones. It increased with the dose and was not elicited by the particulate nature of the toxin preparation or by its lipid and polysaccharide components."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=7325187
"Influence of synthetic corticosteroids on plasma zinc and copper levels in humans.
Yunice AA, Czerwinski AW, Lindeman RD.
The effects of varying doses of a short-acting (methylprednisolone) and a long-acting (dexamethasone) synthetic glucocorticoid on extent and duration of alterations in plasma zinc and copper concentrations in normal humans are documented. Early after intravenous administration of either steroid, increases in plasma zinc and copper levels were observed. By 12 hours, plasma zinc concentrations had decreased below control levels and the extent and duration of the depression depended on the dosage of the steroid administered. No significant decrease was noted beyond 48 hours. The plasma copper levels did not decrease until after zinc levels began returning toward normal, reaching a peak depression at 48 hours and, at high doses of steroids, persisting until completion of the study at 96 hours. This difference in the time sequence suggests that different mechanism control plasma concentrations of the two metals. The serum zinc levels may depend on ACTH-adrenal interactions, while the slower response of the serum copper levels may depend on changes in the rate of synthesis of the serum copper-binding protein, ceruloplasmin."
No abstracts for these other ones unfortunately.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=5417413
"Regulation of hepatic copper in the rat by the adrenal gland.
Gregoriadis G, Sourkes TL."
Posted by Tooooja on February 17, 2005, at 10:50:39
In reply to Biounavailable Copper, posted by Tooooja on February 14, 2005, at 11:07:50
Larry, can I ask you for your opinion on this??
I wrote the first e-mail shown below to Dr Lawrence Wilson at the beginning of the week. I have read through his website and have a copy of his book which discusses interpreting hair analysis results. Unfortunately many aspects of the interpretation he discusses in his book are not definite or conclusive. I was hoping the book would have rules in them which I could apply to my results. But it's not presented in this way. So to calrify things I worte to him asking him to offer his judgement. The second e-mail below is his response. I am quite dissapointed with what he says, I have after all bought a copy of his book, and am seeking clarification on his ambiguous style of presenting information. Does this smell of money grabbing con merchant to you???
"Hi Dr Wilson,I have recently become very interested in HTMA as a
holistic tool to help me cure my depression, which I
have endured now for 12 years. The main symptoms of
my depression are low energy(mental and physical),
feeling emotionally disconnected, and low motivation
to do anything, I can spend long periods of time just
blankly staring at things.""I live in the UK, so I have had my hair tested over
here already, I got the results back but with very
little accompanying information and interpretation.
Fortunately after searching on the Internet I found
your excellent website. I noticed you had a book
published on interpreting HTMA results, so I bought
that and have read it through several times with great
interest.""From the information in your book I have come to the
conclusion that I am either deficient in copper or
have what you call "hidden copper toxicity". I can
not however decide exactly which one it is, and am not
sure how to proceed. I am hopeful that you would
be willing to help me make this distinction. My HTMA
results are as follows:Mineral Levels
--------------
- Calcium: 35
- Magnesium: 2.8
- Sodium: 20
- Potassium: 15
- Copper: 1.1
- Zinc: 19
- Phosphorus: 14
- Iron: 1.3
- Manganese: 0.022
- Chromium: 0.07
- Selenium: 0.06
- Molybdenum: 0.004
- Boron: 0.07
- Cobalt: 0.001Toxic Mineral Levels
--------------------
All were low, except:
- Arsenic: 0.021Important Ratios
----------------
- Sodium/Potassium: 1.33
- Calcium/Potassium: 2.33
- Zinc/Copper: 17.27""As you can see from my results, my copper appears to
be on the low side, and this makes me think that I
should go ahead and supplement copper. However on
page 115 of the 1998 edition of your book 'Nutritional
Balancing and HMA' you introduce the idea of hidden
copper toxicity, with the copper being biounavailable.
You site seven indicators of 'copper imbalance', but
you don't make clear which ones refer to the different
types of copper imbalance(deficient, excess, hidden).
I have quite a low sodium/potassium ration, and I
believe this can indicate hidden copper toxicity. Do
you think this is so in my case? I would be very
grateful to have your opinion.""Some other facts you may find valuable, is my iron
level on the test is high because I was supplementing
ferrous sulphate at the time of the test following an
earlier blood test diagnosing iron deficiency. I have
also tried supplementing 2mg of chelated copper, and
notice within an hour of taking it a definite
improvement in mood, motivation, energy and alertness,
I do feel more with it and connected. But when I go
to bed I find as I am going off to sleep my mind
becomes very jumpy and confused, and I seem to get
snatches of different thoughts that make little sense,
and agitate me so I cannot get to sleep.""Thank you for taking the time to read this e-mail, and
I hope you will have the time to reply to me.Best wishes,
Anthony Jones."
and the response I got from Dr Wilson:"Dear Anthony,
We would be willing to recommend a program of diet, supplements,
lifestyle and detoxification procedures based on your test and the
other information you sent. The fee would be $150.00 US. You could
pay with a credit card or a check or money order made out in dollars.
Let us know if this is of interest.Best wishes and we love you,
Dr. Wilson, dear one Megan and Spirit Guides"To be honest that last bit about spirit guides and loving me I am finding quite freaky. Seems that money is the number one priority with this guy. He doesn't even attempt to discuss the questions I asked.
Posted by Larry Hoover on March 2, 2005, at 15:47:07
In reply to Re: Biounavailable Copper, posted by Tooooja on February 17, 2005, at 10:50:39
> To be honest that last bit about spirit guides and loving me I am finding quite freaky. Seems that money is the number one priority with this guy. He doesn't even attempt to discuss the questions I asked.
Along with the request for money, I think he needs ethics guides, rather than spirit ones.
I'm quite skeptical of hair analysis for mineral content. Hair is dead protein, and is external to the body. It is exposed to the environment every day (car exhaust, industrial emissions, shampoos, etc.).
Here's the link to the site that was down the day I tried to reply to you. This chapter of the book (free online content) goes into intimate detail on copper physiology. You should be able to determine if copper is a critical mineral for you, after reading through this material.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309072794/html/224.html#pagetop
Lar
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