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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 15:16:32
this abstract says that the amino acid carnosine protects the brain from damage in low oxygen and glucose conditions.
Neuroprotective effects of carnosine and homocarnosine on pheochromocytoma PC12 cells exposed to ischemia.
Tabakman R, Lazarovici P, Kohen R.
Department of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Jerusalem, Israel.
The development of neuroprotective drugs against ischemic insults is hampered by the lack of pharmacological in vitro models. We developed an ischemic model using PC12 cell cultures exposed to oxygen-glucose-deprivation (OGD) followed by reoxygenation (18 hr) under regular atmospheric oxygen level. The toxicity induced in this model, that is partially caused by generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS), was measured morphologically as well as by the release of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) and the prostaglandin PGE(2) from the cells. Carnosine and homocarnosine, histidine dipeptides antioxidants, found in high concentration in the brain, have been suggested to provide neuroprotection. Using the OGD model we found that 5 mM carnosine and 1 mM homocarnosine provided maximal neuroprotection of about 50% against OGD insult. This neuroprotective effect was similar to that of a known antioxidant, 4-hydroxy-2,2,6,6-tetramethylpiperidine-1-oxyl (tempol), and was not observed in a serum-deprivation toxicity model of PC12 cells, indicating that carnosine and homocarnosine may act as antioxidant-neuroprotective agents in the brain. Our ischemic model may provide a useful tool for investigating the mechanisms involved in the neuroprotection afforded by histidine dipeptides. Copyright 2002 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Posted by Jasmineneroli on October 30, 2004, at 1:25:58
In reply to carnosine and brain health, posted by raybakes on October 27, 2004, at 15:16:32
Hi Ray:
I have read that Carnosine has an important role in eye health, too.
I'm a bit confused about this substance. I've seen it referred to as an amino acid, but I don't believe it is an AA (???).
I'm really trying to increase my daily anti-oxidant consumption, as neuro-protectors to avoid any oxidative degeneration in my brain (elsewhere too!). Is there any evidence that taking psychiatric drugs (in my case SSRI's & benzo's)
A) Has an impact on brain oxidation (i.e increases it). B)Negatively interferes with the action of anti-oxidants C) Cause me to need higher doses of anti-oxidants (or specific anti-oxidants)?????????
Carnosine would seem like a good addition.
Thanks.
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 2, 2004, at 3:04:55
In reply to Re: carnosine and brain health » raybakes, posted by Jasmineneroli on October 30, 2004, at 1:25:58
> Hi Ray:
> I have read that Carnosine has an important role in eye health, too.
> I'm a bit confused about this substance. I've seen it referred to as an amino acid, but I don't believe it is an AA (???).
> I'm really trying to increase my daily anti-oxidant consumption, as neuro-protectors to avoid any oxidative degeneration in my brain (elsewhere too!). Is there any evidence that taking psychiatric drugs (in my case SSRI's & benzo's)
> A) Has an impact on brain oxidation (i.e increases it). B)Negatively interferes with the action of anti-oxidants C) Cause me to need higher doses of anti-oxidants (or specific anti-oxidants)?????????
> Carnosine would seem like a good addition.
> Thanks.
> Jas
>Hi Jas,
Yes carnosine seems to be a wonder a amino acid, but I suppose it's really a dipeptide - beta alanine and histidine.
There are a lot of claims about it....
balances cell pH
Protects cell membranes from toxic aldehydes
chelates excessive zinc and copper
Chelates toxic cadmium
Acts as a store for histidine, essential in heavy metal detoxification.
prolongs the number of replications by each cell.
repairs cells damaged by sugar.Not sure how many are true, but here's a good article...
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/jan2001_report_carnosine_1.html
As for ssri drugs increasing oxidation in the brain, my feelings are that they might, but I've been trying to push larry on the subject with regard to dopamine.
There's quite a few studies that mention autoxidation of dopamine to toxic quinones, but larry feels that this rarely happens, especially if your antioxidants are at a good level.
I feel that depression is essentially an inflammatory disease, and if our antioxidants were working well, we wouldn't have the depression in the first place - so to have high levels of neurotansmitters, that are prone to oxidation might, in the long run, exacerbate the condition.
I feel, dealing with the immune system, and how it relates to the nervous system is very important. Also looking at ways to improve receptor function and response, to increase the efficiency of the whole system, so less neurotransmitters are needed for the same effect.
Other things that seem important are, oxygen supply, energy (looking after the mitochondria carnosine is good for that!), and blood flow. I've also been reading some things about how our structure regulates the immune/nervous system - the extra cellular matrix in the brain acts as a reservoir for a lot of immune complexes that interact with out nervous system.
Hope that's of interest..
Ray
Posted by Jasmineneroli on November 4, 2004, at 19:23:36
In reply to Re: carnosine and brain health » Jasmineneroli, posted by raybakes on November 2, 2004, at 3:04:55
Hi Ray:
Yes, your post is of interest. I haven't read much about your inflammation theory, but I have read some links you sent me on oxidative degeneration/excitotoxicity in the brain.
It makes a lot of sense to me.
Since it is now well accepted science that free-radical cell damage causes many physical diseases, and anti-oxidants are a first line defense/repairer, it's only logical that the same damage is going on within brain cells, both glial and neuronal. With all manner of effects to brain physiology/chemistry/electricity.
The brain obviously needs to be in a very fine tuned balance for us to function in every way, that any toxicity or cell damage could upset numerous systems, resulting in all kinds of mental health disorders or organic problems.
There's loads of reports surfacing, for instance, on oxidative degeneration in brain cells, causing or contributing to diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimers and ALS.
I'm guessing, therefore, that you may well be right about dopamine, in particular.
I'm really focussing on anti-oxidants, as I've stated before, as a preventive/healing mode, to help my mental health issues. This is in part why I was looking for other answers and started the thread above about bowel toxins and enzymes etc.
Your inflammation theory really interests me.
How do you feel the inflammation occurs? Purely from free-radicals? or from toxins? from viruses/bacteria? lack of hydration/nutrition?
Or all of the above?
Does the inflammation have a psychological/behavioural base too? I.E. Our brains physically respond with inflammation to life-events/trauma's, excess stress.
Great topic!
Jas
Posted by raybakes on November 7, 2004, at 4:46:43
In reply to Re: carnosine and brain health » raybakes, posted by Jasmineneroli on November 4, 2004, at 19:23:36
> Hi Ray:
> Yes, your post is of interest. I haven't read much about your inflammation theory, but I have read some links you sent me on oxidative degeneration/excitotoxicity in the brain.Hi Jas, came across some studies a couple of years ago that mentioned people given immune therapy for hepatitis or cancer become depressed - stop the thrapy, and the depression goes!
'Interferon alpha-induced depression in chronic hepatitis C patients: comparison between different types of interferon alpha.'
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9566274&dopt=Abstract.
> There's loads of reports surfacing, for instance, on oxidative degeneration in brain cells, causing or contributing to diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimers and ALS.
> I'm guessing, therefore, that you may well be right about dopamine, in particular.I've read a few articles that say that L dopa supplementation accelerates the progression of parkinson's - that rings some alarm bells for me!
This abstract talks about apoptosis (immune system triggering cell death)in parkinson's. From the abstract it looks like Bcl-2 is an 'antiapoptic' protein an protects the brain, caspase 3 and PARP initiate apoptosis.Excitotoxicity can trigger these events by causing excess calcium to enter nerve cells, drive them faster than the mitochondria can cope with, and as the mitchondria breaks down, mitochondrial proteins can then trigger the immune system to destroy the cell.
Lack of blood flow or oxygen can do the same (ischemia). Read some articles about hypercoagulation of the blood, and the use of enzymes like 'nattokinase' to thin the blood.
Autoimmunity, viral infection...
> I'm really focussing on anti-oxidants, as I've stated before, as a preventive/healing mode, to help my mental health issues. This is in part why I was looking for other answers and started the thread above about bowel toxins and enzymes etc.I'm really interested in autism because of the gut-brain link with them - went to an autism conference last week, and they were showing that the urine analysis of autistic children matched the urine analysis of adults with ME/chronic fatigue. Just read Dr McCandless' book "children with starving brains" about how she's been treating her granddaughter for autism - It's got a great chapter on healing the gut. What I also like about the book is the total dedication to helping these children from doctors specializing in autism - you start to realize that there is a difference between 'scientific fact' and 'what works'. The majority of doctors tell autistic parents that there's nothing that can be done for them, which is an outright lie! There are new ways of dealing with disease, which require dedication, patience and honouring of each client's invividual imbalances - most doctors are too scared or proud to change the way they work - they also would earn less too!
Sorry, going off on one! I've spoken to several parents whose 'normal' children have regressed into autism after vaccinations (their doctors denied any association with the vaccine). The vaccine dysregulates their immune system and triggers a gut and brain disorder. Antioxidants are good, but I feel that understanding our own personal mechanisms for immune dysregulation is a must, so we can fine tune our therapy to try to bring our immune system back into balance.
> Your inflammation theory really interests me.
> How do you feel the inflammation occurs? Purely from free-radicals? or from toxins? from viruses/bacteria? lack of hydration/nutrition?Probably all of the above! - for example, having mercury laden vaccinations or teeth are thought to trigger immune reactions that inhibit a protein called metallothionein, that transports mercury.
> Does the inflammation have a psychological/behavioural base too? I.E. Our brains physically respond with inflammation to life-events/trauma's, excess stress.I believe it would - the anxiety of a psychological problem, might over drive the nervous system, resulting in excitotoxicity for example - alcohol causes the brain to make more glutamate receptors, so I wonder if part of the hangover is an excitotoxic rebound effect?
I feel the body has the great ability to adapt to what life throws at it - when something goes wrong, there are probably a lot of things that have gone on below our perception that need to be addressed, as well as the problem we percieve - It's quite a journey!!
Thanks,
Ray
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