![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by L McLean on October 2, 2004, at 9:11:09
In reply to Re: My P'doc has sold me on natural ADs » L McLean, posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 0:19:52
Well, as I said, I am taking 1,000mg a day of Fish oil, and 1,000mg of Vitamin E a day. You should of course talk to your doctor, but it has really helped me with my depression.
Posted by Optimist on October 2, 2004, at 13:25:23
In reply to Re: My P'doc has sold me on natural ADs, posted by L McLean on October 2, 2004, at 9:11:09
I'm happy for you. I've explored the natural route myself for a long time. No matter what I tried though I felt I needed something extra as I wasn't able to make my life work as well without it. I'm in the beginning stages more so of drug therapy and am doing much better because it of it.
I am taking:
EPA/DHA (fish oil) Up to 12 grams per day
Vitamin E (800mg)
Vitamin C (1000mg)
Magnesium (300mg)
Zinc (50mg)
Vitamin B complex (50)
Multivitamin/mineral
Light therapy (light box, one hour a day)It is my belief that different people have different deficiencies which may lead to depression. There are no panacea's. Some people are more biologically suspeptible to mental illness as well, and there may be a need for medication that natural sources can't deal with.
It is all very complex and I believe no one person has the answers. I am a very inquisite person though and enjoy the detective work on trying to figure out what works for me. Although in my more depressive states this isn't as fun as many of you can relate to I'm sure.
My current drug regimand is:
St. John's Wort (1800mg per day)
Wellbutrin SR(300mg per day)
Adderall XR(20mg upon waking)
Tyrosine (3000mg upon need), although I may not use anymore since I've started adderall. Time will tell.
5-HTP (50-100mg as needed)You may not want to call St. John's Wort, tyrosine , and 5-HTP drugs but I listed them here since I thought they had more drug like effects.
Posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 14:06:05
In reply to Re: My P'doc has sold me on natural ADs, posted by L McLean on October 2, 2004, at 9:11:09
> Well, as I said, I am taking 1,000mg a day of Fish oil, and 1,000mg of Vitamin E a day. You should of course talk to your doctor, but it has really helped me with my depression.
I have been taking 1,000 mg of fish oil a day for many months now along with 800 mg. of Vitamin E. I haven't noticed any difference. I have tried higher doses in the past - also to no avail. That's why I asked if you were taking anything else along with it. I know that a lot of others here have had good results with fish oil though. I'm glad it's working for you.
-K
Posted by L McLean on October 2, 2004, at 14:26:14
In reply to Re: My P'doc has sold me on natural ADs » L McLean, posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 14:06:05
I'm sorry it hasn't worked for you Kara. I have also read, and heard alot about St.John's wart helping a lot of people, but I haven't tried it. I guess (Different strokes for different folks!):) Good luck finding your solution!
Posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:20:49
In reply to Re: My P'doc has sold me on natural ADs » L McLean, posted by karaS on October 2, 2004, at 14:06:05
I don't mean to suggest that it should necessarily work for you because maybe it just doesn't for some, but have you tried experimenting with the DHA or EPA ratios?
I'm not sure fish oil is doing much for me either really because I haven't isolated it from other stuff. But I thought I did notice a (negative) difference when I took a DHA dominant formula a few times. Could have been something else, I'm not sure. But the studies I've seen referenced were that sometimes EPA was effective, sometimes not, sometimes the DHA was effective, sometimes not. I wonder if each is maybe indicated especially for certain types of depression, the other for other types. If you've always taken the EPA, might be worth a trial with DHA. (And when you say "1 gram" do you mean 1 gram over all, or 1 gm of EPA or DHA?) I think I may have not taken enough when I first started taking it, but then later I also may have taken too much since that one study someone referenced recently said that 4 grams was too much. But that was 4 grams of EPA I believe, which I haven't come close to with my puny 180 EPA/120 DHA capsules.
I wonder too if the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 is important. Should we take more fish oil if we eat a lot of Omega-6 type fats?
This fish oil stuff is so promising, especially when you read about the essential fatty acids and how the brain is 20% EFAs, but then it's also so confusing.
I'm taking 6 capsules a day of a cheap store brand, which is 1080 mg of EPA and 720 of DHA. I have NO idea if this is a good amount or not!
JL
Posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:39:41
In reply to Re: Fish oil » karaS, posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:20:49
Hi Ray,
I remember you saying something on another thread about inflammation that indicated that you appear to understand this concept as it relates to depression. Unlike myself. :)
Fish oil is one thing that reduces inflammation, but what are the others? Why can't we just take ibuprofen and be less depressed?
This article is interesting in what it says about the immune system connection.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/07/040728084924.htm
I was doing fairly well last winter until I had a viral respiratory infection for several weeks. During and subsequently, it seemed like my supplements were working differently and I just basically was all out of whack and went downhill. I attributed it to stress, but I wonder how much it was also the virus itself and my immune system reaction.
JL
Posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 0:41:35
In reply to Re: Fish oil » karaS, posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:20:49
> I don't mean to suggest that it should necessarily work for you because maybe it just doesn't for some, but have you tried experimenting with the DHA or EPA ratios?
>
> I'm not sure fish oil is doing much for me either really because I haven't isolated it from other stuff. But I thought I did notice a (negative) difference when I took a DHA dominant formula a few times. Could have been something else, I'm not sure. But the studies I've seen referenced were that sometimes EPA was effective, sometimes not, sometimes the DHA was effective, sometimes not. I wonder if each is maybe indicated especially for certain types of depression, the other for other types. If you've always taken the EPA, might be worth a trial with DHA. (And when you say "1 gram" do you mean 1 gram over all, or 1 gm of EPA or DHA?) I think I may have not taken enough when I first started taking it, but then later I also may have taken too much since that one study someone referenced recently said that 4 grams was too much. But that was 4 grams of EPA I believe, which I haven't come close to with my puny 180 EPA/120 DHA capsules.
>
> I wonder too if the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 is important. Should we take more fish oil if we eat a lot of Omega-6 type fats?
>
> This fish oil stuff is so promising, especially when you read about the essential fatty acids and how the brain is 20% EFAs, but then it's also so confusing.
>
> I'm taking 6 capsules a day of a cheap store brand, which is 1080 mg of EPA and 720 of DHA. I have NO idea if this is a good amount or not!
>
> JL
JL,My current regimen includes 1 gram total of DHA and EPA. I have tried different brands and different amounts. I'm not sure about the ratios I've taken in the past though. At one point, a holistic doctor had me on a lot of it - and high quailty stuff. It seems to give me acne problems as well (even though I take evening primrose oil). I just don't get the gut feeling that this is something that is going to work for me.
Now I take a high quality brand that at the dose of 1 gram isn't giving me bad acne. (I think it's important to get a good brand. I worry that the cheap stuff could have contaminants.) I take it just to ensure that I have enough of it in my system. I don't expect any miraculous results but I do feel that if I were deficient, that I'd probably have worse problems.
There are other posts to research here about dosages. Maybe that can help you decide how much is right for you. I don't think it could hurt to eat more of the right type of fish either.
I'm going to be starting the antidepressant, Cymbalta, soon so I'm not going to experiment with any supplements for a while. I want to make sure that I know how that is effecting me. I prefer alternative methods but I'm really under the gun here and I need to get functional soon. I'll probably hang out more on the main board for a while because of that.
Take care,
Kara
Posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 8:56:02
In reply to Re: Inflammation question for raybakes » JLx, posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:39:41
> I remember you saying something on another thread about inflammation that indicated that you appear to understand this concept as it relates to depression. Unlike myself. :)
>
> Fish oil is one thing that reduces inflammation, but what are the others? Why can't we just take ibuprofen and be less depressed?
>
> This article is interesting in what it says about the immune system connection.
>
> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/07/040728084924.htm
>
> I was doing fairly well last winter until I had a viral respiratory infection for several weeks. During and subsequently, it seemed like my supplements were working differently and I just basically was all out of whack and went downhill. I attributed it to stress, but I wonder how much it was also the virus itself and my immune system reaction.
>
> JLI think you're right, I think your virus and immune reaction are behind you going downhill. I usually go downhill for several months after a virus - managed to stay on top of things after a recent cold, I'm pretty much OK after two weeks! Amazing! (lactoferrin works really well at inhibiting the early stages of viral replication).This abstract talks about the rise cortisol caused by an inflammatory response.
Ibuprofen works as an anti-inflammatory by inhibiting the production of prostaglandins (immune system messengers made from dietary oils that are either pro or anti-inflammatory - first identified in the prostate gland, hence the name!). The cox enzyme that ibuprofen inhibits is downstream from the release of cytokines that trigger prostaglandin production, so ibuprofen will only deal with some of the inflammatory effects, but not deal with the triggers - and it's the triggers (cytokines) that have a direct effect on the nervous and endocrine system.
Fish oils are also cox inhibitors, and also inhibitors of PLA2 (phospholipase A2) the enzyme that breaks down the phospholipids in the cell membrane, that results in an inflammatory cascade. PLA2 is more upstream than COX, so it's inhibition has more effect on depression.
I've been reading about the cytokines for several years, it takes quite a while to get a handle on them, but it's worth sticking with it, because they're behind most chronic health problems - in the article you sent me it mentioned the 'IDO' enzyme that degrades tryptophan during an inflammatory response, so very little tryptophan is converted to serotonin. Also just found out that inflammation inhibits the insertion of iron into heme, and other iron containing enzymes, so oxygen transport, detoxification, energy production, stress and sex hormone production, serotonin, dopamine and noradrenaline production all start to fail.So what can inhibit the cytokines?! Glutathione, inhibits the enzymes that release them, lactoferrin, DPP IV (from kirkman labs) helps break them down, niacinamide inhibits them (maybe because glutathione needs NADPH) and also helps inhibit the trytophan degrading IDO enzyme. I'm sure there's others, especially other antioxidants, but glutathione is involved in recyling antioxidants that have mopped up a free radical, so so much of it is a team effort!
on DPP IV....
and a bit about IDO and depression..
Hope that's not too much info!
Ray
Posted by Optimist on October 3, 2004, at 12:34:35
In reply to Re: Fish oil » karaS, posted by JLx on October 2, 2004, at 18:20:49
> I don't mean to suggest that it should necessarily work for you because maybe it just doesn't for some, but have you tried experimenting with the DHA or EPA ratios?
>
> I'm not sure fish oil is doing much for me either really because I haven't isolated it from other stuff. But I thought I did notice a (negative) difference when I took a DHA dominant formula a few times. Could have been something else, I'm not sure. But the studies I've seen referenced were that sometimes EPA was effective, sometimes not, sometimes the DHA was effective, sometimes not. I wonder if each is maybe indicated especially for certain types of depression, the other for other types. If you've always taken the EPA, might be worth a trial with DHA. (And when you say "1 gram" do you mean 1 gram over all, or 1 gm of EPA or DHA?) I think I may have not taken enough when I first started taking it, but then later I also may have taken too much since that one study someone referenced recently said that 4 grams was too much. But that was 4 grams of EPA I believe, which I haven't come close to with my puny 180 EPA/120 DHA capsules.
>
> I wonder too if the ratio of Omega-3 to Omega-6 is important. Should we take more fish oil if we eat a lot of Omega-6 type fats?
>
> This fish oil stuff is so promising, especially when you read about the essential fatty acids and how the brain is 20% EFAs, but then it's also so confusing.
>
> I'm taking 6 capsules a day of a cheap store brand, which is 1080 mg of EPA and 720 of DHA. I have NO idea if this is a good amount or not!
>
> JL
>
>
>The Omega 3 to 6 ratio is important. Ideally I've heard it should be in a 1:3 ratio, depending on your sources. It's a close approximate. My understanding is that they compete for the areas in the body so if you're getting too much 6, it can inhibit your 3 content.
I've read that it may be more therapeutic for mood enhancement to supplement between 1.5 grams and 4 grams per day of combined EPA/DHA. That's from the book "The Omega-3 Connection" by Dr. Andrew L. Stoll. Higher dosages may be needed if this amount doesn't work.
It's also important to add Vitamin C (500-1000mg) and Vitamin E (400-800IU) to improve the effectiveness of the fish oil as well as for it's anti-oxidant properties.
Posted by JLx on October 4, 2004, at 10:33:07
In reply to Re: Fish oil » JLx, posted by karaS on October 3, 2004, at 0:41:35
> I just don't get the gut feeling that this is something that is going to work for me.Gut feelings are important.
> Now I take a high quality brand that at the dose of 1 gram isn't giving me bad acne. (I think it's important to get a good brand. I worry that the cheap stuff could have contaminants.)
Larry Hoover has said, the last I saw him post about it anyway, that the mercury and other bad stuff is in the flesh of the fish, not the oil. I hope he's right. :)
> There are other posts to research here about dosages. Maybe that can help you decide how much is right for you. I don't think it could hurt to eat more of the right type of fish either.
I actually like fish a lot and could it 4-5 times a week (especially smoked salmon) but I worry about the mercury as I already have mercury amalgams. I was eating farm raised salmon until I read about it. Did you know that they have to dye it pink, otherwise it's gray? Because they don't eat what wild salmon eat. For that reason they also have less Omega-3. It's very frustrating that we CAN'T eat a lot of fish without all these pollution worries.
> I'm going to be starting the antidepressant, Cymbalta, soon so I'm not going to experiment with any supplements for a while. I want to make sure that I know how that is effecting me. I prefer alternative methods but I'm really under the gun here and I need to get functional soon. I'll probably hang out more on the main board for a while because of that.Good luck with that and we'll miss you.
JL
Posted by JLx on October 4, 2004, at 10:54:26
In reply to Re: Inflammation question for raybakes » JLx, posted by raybakes on October 3, 2004, at 8:56:02
> I think you're right, I think your virus and immune reaction are behind you going downhill.
Hmm...I wish I'd known that, I might have been a bit less panicky and self-blaming.
<(lactoferrin works really well at inhibiting the early stages of viral replication).
I never heard of it before, but was just reading about it. What kind do you take?
>This abstract talks about the rise cortisol caused by an inflammatory response.
I'm just amazed by how much depression seems to coincide with all these stress responses. What do you think is best to reduce cortisol/inflammation?
> The cox enzyme that ibuprofen inhibits is downstream from the release of cytokines that trigger prostaglandin production, so ibuprofen will only deal with some of the inflammatory effects, but not deal with the triggers - and it's the triggers (cytokines) that have a direct effect on the nervous and endocrine system.
Ah. I knew it had to be something like that.
> Fish oils are also cox inhibitors, and also inhibitors of PLA2 (phospholipase A2) the enzyme that breaks down the phospholipids in the cell membrane, that results in an inflammatory cascade. PLA2 is more upstream than COX, so it's inhibition has more effect on depression.
What do you think is a good amount and in what ratio of EPA or DHA? I've read conflicting advice here and in the various links people have posted.
> I've been reading about the cytokines for several years, it takes quite a while to get a handle on them, but it's worth sticking with it,
If you say so. <g>
> So what can inhibit the cytokines?!Glutathione, inhibits the enzymes that release them, lactoferrin, DPP IV (from kirkman labs) helps break them down, niacinamide inhibits them (maybe because glutathione needs NADPH) and also helps inhibit the trytophan degrading IDO enzyme. I'm sure there's others, especially other antioxidants, but glutathione is involved in recyling antioxidants that have mopped up a free radical, so so much of it is a team effort!
Well, at least I like the foods that have the most glutathione. Usually when something is supposed to be "good for you" I have to groan as it's on my hate list. ;)
> Hope that's not too much info!
Thanks for your help. You seem like a sweet guy. Now that I've buttered you up.... :)
Bottom line, what's the best thing to prevent inflammation as pertaining to depression? My funds are limited, and I already take niacinamide and fish oil.
JL
Posted by JLx on October 4, 2004, at 10:58:04
In reply to Re: Fish oil » JLx, posted by Optimist on October 3, 2004, at 12:34:35
> It's a close approximate. My understanding is that they compete for the areas in the body so if you're getting too much 6, it can inhibit your 3 content.Ah, ok, I thought it was something like that. So basically if we're eating crappy, too much fat, then more fish oil might be indicated.
> I've read that it may be more therapeutic for mood enhancement to supplement between 1.5 grams and 4 grams per day of combined EPA/DHA. That's from the book "The Omega-3 Connection" by Dr. Andrew L. Stoll. Higher dosages may be needed if this amount doesn't work.
I read that book a while back, but have read enough since then that it's all become confused in my mind. The hard thing is to figure out if it's doing anything at all, much less if more is needed or not.
> It's also important to add Vitamin C (500-1000mg) and Vitamin E (400-800IU) to improve the effectiveness of the fish oil as well as for it's anti-oxidant properties.
Yup, got that covered.
Thanks. :)
JL
Posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 7:30:36
In reply to Re: Inflammation question for raybakes » raybakes, posted by JLx on October 4, 2004, at 10:54:26
> > <(lactoferrin works really well at inhibiting the early stages of viral replication).
>
> I never heard of it before, but was just reading about it. What kind do you take?I take one by Jarrow formulas
> I'm just amazed by how much depression seems to coincide with all these stress responses. What do you think is best to reduce cortisol/inflammation?
That's a hard one! I think it involves finding out where out own subtle feedback mechanisms have gone wrong - i'm interested in glutathione, prolactin, vitamin d, tyrosine, DPP IV and lactoferrin fo their anti-inflammatory effects.
>
> What do you think is a good amount and in what ratio of EPA or DHA? I've read conflicting advice here and in the various links people have posted.again, it's quite personal - i do well with a high DHA formula but EPA alone is a better anti-inflammatory (inhibitor of PLA2). I have some friends who do well with DHA, some with EPA, and some a balance!! Sorry, not much help!
>
> Bottom line, what's the best thing to prevent inflammation as pertaining to depression? My funds are limited, and I already take niacinamide and fish oil.You might want to try different brands of fish oils - the one I use is either from Jarrow or Thorne. maybe give Lactoferrin a try, because it's an all round immune booster and anti-inflammatory, and antiviral- DPP IV has been found to be low in depression, and it's deficiency may be a large factor in depression.
Good luck,
Ray
Posted by joebob on October 7, 2004, at 10:03:09
In reply to Re: Inflammation question for raybakes » JLx, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 7:30:36
stomach? is kirkman labs better than klaire labs 'serenaid' which i can get cheaper?
where can i get IDO?
thanks
Posted by joebob on October 7, 2004, at 10:49:21
In reply to Re: Inflammation question for raybakes » JLx, posted by raybakes on October 5, 2004, at 7:30:36
to suppress it? the only product i can find that relates to it is 'phytobalance' by pure encapsulations
Posted by raybakes on October 8, 2004, at 11:51:52
In reply to DPP IV....do you take it with food or on empty » raybakes, posted by joebob on October 7, 2004, at 10:03:09
> stomach? is kirkman labs better than klaire labs 'serenaid' which i can get cheaper?
>
> where can i get IDO?
>
> thanksHi, kirkman make dpp iv alone, not sure if klaire do - think serenaid is an enzyme combination, with other enzymes in as well - you'd have to try both to see if one suited you, I've only tried kirkman's. If you're allergic to wheat or dairy and have eaten food with it in, then dpp iv can be taken at that time, but it's not a good idea to still eat wheat and dairy and hope the enzymes will make life easier! I take dpp iv between meals, and it seems to have a calming head clearing effect - also tried serrapeptase (from silk worms) and nattokinase (from soya) for their anti-inflammatory effects.
IDO is indoleamine oxidase, an enzyme that breaks down tryptophan during inflammation and infection - it's an enzyme we make ourselves and is thought to increase the chances of depression when our immune system is upregulated through infection or inflammation.
Ray
Posted by raybakes on October 8, 2004, at 12:01:47
In reply to prolactin...where do you buy it? or are you trying » raybakes, posted by joebob on October 7, 2004, at 10:49:21
> to suppress it? the only product i can find that relates to it is 'phytobalance' by pure encapsulations
Hi again, trying to inhibit it! Prolactin is mainly known as the pituitary hormone that stimulates lactation in a nursing mother. Men and women with autoimmune disease also produce too much of it - immune cells have prolactin receptors that can trigger an excessive immune response - Prolactin suppresses the production of male and female hormones too, causing fertility problems in both men and women..
Sounds like phytobalance, works to lower prolactin and balance hormones.
Ray
Posted by joebob on October 10, 2004, at 10:35:54
In reply to Re: prolactin...where do you buy it? or are you trying » joebob, posted by raybakes on October 8, 2004, at 12:01:47
great interest and would like to know what you have settled on as the best regimin for you....
i have been using krill oil recently, but am unsure of the dose and have a lot of other questions...
btw, i'm in l.a. and have access to most supps at big discounts, if that is of any help to you
best,
joebob
Posted by raybakes on October 12, 2004, at 3:02:19
In reply to thanks, ray, i've been following your posts with » raybakes, posted by joebob on October 10, 2004, at 10:35:54
> great interest and would like to know what you have settled on as the best regimin for you....
>
> i have been using krill oil recently, but am unsure of the dose and have a lot of other questions...
>
> btw, i'm in l.a. and have access to most supps at big discounts, if that is of any help to you
>
> best,
> joebobHi Joebob, my thoughts on things change all the time as I experiment with different supplements for my own health...I have tried krill oil but didn't get on with it....might try it again soon, to see if that is still the case.
I found vitamin d from biotics to be of help to my mood, but olny if i take it along with 12,000 ius of fish derived vitamin a....some articles suggest the reason light boxes work for depression is because they increase vitamin d
http://my.webmd.com/content/article/91/101374.htm
Just found out that b12, folate and betaine are important for the manufacture and recycling of both creatine and carnitine - essential for brain and nervous system energy. SAMe is ok, but it is easily degraded and without b12, folate and betaine, can raise the neurotoxin homocysteine too high.
I've been taking sublingual b12 from intensive nutrition, folacal from thorne, betaine from metabolics (i get the vit a from them too) and aminoplex from biocare (for lysine and methionine) the last two are british companies, so not sure if you can get them in LA?
Ray
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 12:45:48
In reply to Re: Fish oil » karaS, posted by JLx on October 4, 2004, at 10:33:07
> I actually like fish a lot and could it 4-5 times a week (especially smoked salmon) but I worry about the mercury as I already have mercury amalgams. I was eating farm raised salmon until I read about it. Did you know that they have to dye it pink, otherwise it's gray? Because they don't eat what wild salmon eat. For that reason they also have less Omega-3. It's very frustrating that we CAN'T eat a lot of fish without all these pollution worries.
According to the USDA database, farmed Atlantic salmon has more omega-3 fatty acids than does wild caught.
Farmed fish is attracting far more adverse publicity than it deserves, IMHO, at least from a nutritional or contaminant standpoint. Pollutant levels in virtually all fish are falling with time (excluding those caught near polluting industries), both in wild caught and farmed fish. The health studies that have shown that fish eaters were healthier than those who ate none were conducted on people who ate more heavily polluted fish than that which is available today. All food is contaminated. The reason fish has attracted this attention is a political act.
Here are a couple of links to things I wrote.
Lar
http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=qo5Mb.119%24k97.33817%40news20.bellglobal.com
http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=fXRIc.11766%24RD4.875328%40news20.bellglobal.com
Posted by JLx on October 31, 2004, at 10:12:02
In reply to Re: Fish oil » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on October 30, 2004, at 12:45:48
> > I actually like fish a lot and could it 4-5 times a week (especially smoked salmon) but I worry about the mercury as I already have mercury amalgams. I was eating farm raised salmon until I read about it. Did you know that they have to dye it pink, otherwise it's gray? Because they don't eat what wild salmon eat. For that reason they also have less Omega-3. It's very frustrating that we CAN'T eat a lot of fish without all these pollution worries.
> According to the USDA database, farmed Atlantic salmon has more omega-3 fatty acids than does wild caught.
This is a copy of a NYT article that I read last year: http://www.fass.org/fasstrack/news_item.asp?news_id=1264
"While all salmon in the store may look similar, the Department of Agriculture says farmed salmon contains almost twice the total fat, more than twice the saturated fat and fewer beneficial omega-3 fatty acids than wild salmon."
"farmed salmon are not naturally salmon pink or red, and that if they were not fed artificial colors they would range from gray or khaki to pale yellow or pale pink. Wild salmon turn pink from the krill and shrimp they eat. (Farmed salmon eat a fishmeal diet.)"
This was the study I had read about recently http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article861693.ece and it made sense to me as it's similar to the difference between grain or grass fed beef.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2296923&dopt=Abstract
That's a very tiny sample.
Can we trust the USDA on this one?
> Farmed fish is attracting far more adverse publicity than it deserves, IMHO, at least from a nutritional or contaminant standpoint. Pollutant levels in virtually all fish are falling with time (excluding those caught near polluting industries), both in wild caught and farmed fish. The health studies that have shown that fish eaters were healthier than those who ate none were conducted on people who ate more heavily polluted fish than that which is available today. All food is contaminated. The reason fish has attracted this attention is a political act.
>
> Here are a couple of links to things I wrote.
>
> Lar
>
> http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=qo5Mb.119%24k97.33817%40news20.bellglobal.com
>
> http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=fXRIc.11766%24RD4.875328%40news20.bellglobal.comThanks for the links. I don't worry so much about carcinogens, hoping the best for my immune system there, as mercury specifically, as I already have enough of that stuff, but apparently mercury doesn't accumulate in the flesh of salmon, so that's good.
I like salmon a lot. Please convince me, Larry, that the farm raised variety is a good thing. :)
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 11:17:14
In reply to Re: Fish oil » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on October 31, 2004, at 10:12:02
> > > I actually like fish a lot and could it 4-5 times a week (especially smoked salmon) but I worry about the mercury as I already have mercury amalgams. I was eating farm raised salmon until I read about it. Did you know that they have to dye it pink, otherwise it's gray? Because they don't eat what wild salmon eat. For that reason they also have less Omega-3. It's very frustrating that we CAN'T eat a lot of fish without all these pollution worries.
>
> > According to the USDA database, farmed Atlantic salmon has more omega-3 fatty acids than does wild caught.
>
> This is a copy of a NYT article that I read last year: http://www.fass.org/fasstrack/news_item.asp?news_id=1264
>
> "While all salmon in the store may look similar, the Department of Agriculture says farmed salmon contains almost twice the total fat, more than twice the saturated fat and fewer beneficial omega-3 fatty acids than wild salmon."I'm happy to discuss this further. I don't want to be right. I want to be correct. You ask good questions.
The link that I have always used, which led to direct comparisons of specific fatty acid concentrations, showed ~40% more EPA/DHA in farmed Atlantic salmon than wild-caught. That link no longer works, and the new USDA database (recently updated, but less informative) does not provide me with the same detail.
I checked for an archive of that site, and it's available..... <pheww!>
http://web.archive.org/web/20040202200808/http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~ah/food/
If you check under lipids, EPA and DHA are found in different tables, as 20:5 and 22:6 respectively. You'll see that farmed Atlantic salmon has more of these fatty acids than does wild caught.
http://web.archive.org/web/20040228111536/www.cs.princeton.edu/~ah/food/data/fishshellfish.lipids2
http://web.archive.org/web/20040305113516/www.cs.princeton.edu/~ah/food/data/fishshellfish.lipids3
I don't know the date of these findings, but that is what I relied on for my comment.
> "farmed salmon are not naturally salmon pink or red, and that if they were not fed artificial colors they would range from gray or khaki to pale yellow or pale pink. Wild salmon turn pink from the krill and shrimp they eat. (Farmed salmon eat a fishmeal diet.)"
The two pigments in question, canthaxanthin and astaxanthin, are natural forms of beta-carotene. Yes, it has been possible to supply synthetic versions of these, but they are chemically identical to the forms found in e.g. shrimp or flamingoes, or the natural foods consumed by salmon in the wild.
http://www.chemistry.org/portal/a/c/s/1/feature_ent.html?DOC=enthusiasts%5Cent_pinkchem.html
Too much of certain forms of carotenoids are toxic (consider Retin-A for acne, which is teratogenic). Wild fish have these exact same pigments. It is disingenuous to call farmed fish "dyed". It is deceptive to raise the concern only for farmed fish, with regulated beta-carotene supplement levels. What are the levels in wild-caught fish?
> This was the study I had read about recently http://www.aftenposten.no/english/local/article861693.ece and it made sense to me as it's similar to the difference between grain or grass fed beef.
Quite correct. However, grain-based salmon rations are a European phenomenon. North and South American feeds do not contain appreciable amounts of grain. Hmmmm. Okay, my data may be older. I can say they didn't contain appreciable grain, a decade ago. Economic factors may be shifting towards other food sources than a primarily fish meal pellet.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2296923&dopt=Abstract
>
> That's a very tiny sample.Again, that is European data.
> Can we trust the USDA on this one?
I trust the USDA data, but I also recognize that it may not represent all samples. They only test a tiny fraction of available foods.
> > Farmed fish is attracting far more adverse publicity than it deserves, IMHO, at least from a nutritional or contaminant standpoint. Pollutant levels in virtually all fish are falling with time (excluding those caught near polluting industries), both in wild caught and farmed fish. The health studies that have shown that fish eaters were healthier than those who ate none were conducted on people who ate more heavily polluted fish than that which is available today. All food is contaminated. The reason fish has attracted this attention is a political act.
> >
> > Here are a couple of links to things I wrote.
> >
> > Lar
> >
> > http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=qo5Mb.119%24k97.33817%40news20.bellglobal.com
> >
> > http://www.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=fXRIc.11766%24RD4.875328%40news20.bellglobal.com
>
> Thanks for the links. I don't worry so much about carcinogens, hoping the best for my immune system there, as mercury specifically, as I already have enough of that stuff, but apparently mercury doesn't accumulate in the flesh of salmon, so that's good.Mercury does accumulate in salmon. It does move up the food chain. The solution, though, is selenium intake.
Sci Total Environ 2000 Jan 17;245(1-3):15-24
An assessment of selenium to mercury in Greenland marine animals.
Dietz R, Riget F, Born EW.
National Environmental Research Institute, Department of Arctic Environment, Copenhagen, Denmark. rdi@dmu.dk
Information on mercury and selenium molar relation in muscle, liver and kidney tissue of Greenland marine animals is presented. In the majority of the samples selenium was present in a molar surplus to mercury. This was most clear in molluscs, crustaceans, fish and seabirds. A 1:1 molar ratio was found in tissues of marine mammals with high mercury concentrations (above approx. 10 nmol/g). This was most clearly demonstrated for liver and kidney tissue of polar bear and for ringed seal with high mercury concentration in the liver. These findings support previous results found in liver tissue of marine mammals, suggesting that methyl mercury is detoxified by a chemical mechanism involving selenium. If the anthropogenic release of mercury to the environment increases in the future due to increasing energy demands, species such as polar bears and seals with high tissue mercury concentrations should be monitored to elucidate whether this protective mechanism can be maintained in target organs.
> I like salmon a lot. Please convince me, Larry, that the farm raised variety is a good thing. :)
>
> JLI eat it, and without qualms. I am convinced that the health benefits far far outweigh the risks (provided, of course, the fish is cultured with consideration for the environment).
I'm happy to address all of your concerns, to the best of my ability.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 7, 2004, at 11:25:14
In reply to Re: farmed salmon » JLx, posted by Larry Hoover on October 31, 2004, at 11:17:14
What sayest thou?
Posted by JLx on November 8, 2004, at 8:18:47
In reply to Re: farmed salmon...JLx????, posted by Larry Hoover on November 7, 2004, at 11:25:14
> What sayest thou?
I've been thinking on it. I feel reassured by the dye part of your info. Even if only Europeans are feeding the grains instead of marine life now, I would expect that to change if there's more profit involved. That seems to be the way it goes, doesn't it? Demand, supply, profit, more profit....damn the consequences. But even IF farmed salmon has less Omega-3 than wild salmon, it still has more than other forms of protein like meat, which is probably what I would eat instead. So, that leaves the environmental impact of these farms. I will probably just try to ignore that like I do other questionable modern farming techniques. :(
JL
Posted by Larry Hoover on November 8, 2004, at 10:32:53
In reply to Re: farmed salmon...JLx???? » Larry Hoover, posted by JLx on November 8, 2004, at 8:18:47
> > What sayest thou?
>
> I've been thinking on it. I feel reassured by the dye part of your info. Even if only Europeans are feeding the grains instead of marine life now, I would expect that to change if there's more profit involved. That seems to be the way it goes, doesn't it? Demand, supply, profit, more profit....damn the consequences. But even IF farmed salmon has less Omega-3 than wild salmon, it still has more than other forms of protein like meat, which is probably what I would eat instead. So, that leaves the environmental impact of these farms. I will probably just try to ignore that like I do other questionable modern farming techniques. :(
>
> JLExactly as I have decided. The biggest competitor to European and North American fish farms is South American. Those southern fish are almost certainly fed fish meal, as grain is in relatively short supply for consumption by people. I think that the cost pressure arises from the low capitalization of labour input.
Yes, the pollution angle concerns me too, but if you look closely at anything we do to feed ourselves, we adversely affect the environment. Even so-called closed organic enterprises are not closed. It's more of a relative thing, than an absolute.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
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