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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 9 of 9. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 17:26:06
In a post to Ilene on the health board you wrote:
"One of your links connected the specific effect to a parodoxical response to adrenaline. The key disruption in CFS is, IMHO, adrenal. Heat and psychological stressors can both trigger adrenal responses...."
I think this ties in to what you were trying to tell me in an earlier post. My CFS and adrenal fatigue are perhaps more related than I realized. They would also explain the paradoxical responses I've had to noradrenergic supplements and medications, no? Am I correct in thinking that the CFS/AF is probably the reason that I take supplements and meds that are stimulating for most people, yet for me I become groggy and exhausted? The "heat triggering adrenal responses" also ties in with the cholinergic urticaria.
Sometimes I think why do I have so many of these strange conditions. Maybe I'm just a hypochondriac but the truth is that they're all related. You start with one of them and they can easily lead to all of the others. If I'm interpreting you correctly, they even lead to how you react to alternative and pharmaceutical antidepressants.
(OK, maybe that was a little more than one question.)
Kara
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 10:38:50
In reply to One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry, posted by KaraS on August 21, 2004, at 17:26:06
> In a post to Ilene on the health board you wrote:
>
> "One of your links connected the specific effect to a parodoxical response to adrenaline. The key disruption in CFS is, IMHO, adrenal. Heat and psychological stressors can both trigger adrenal responses...."
>
> I think this ties in to what you were trying to tell me in an earlier post. My CFS and adrenal fatigue are perhaps more related than I realized. They would also explain the paradoxical responses I've had to noradrenergic supplements and medications, no?Oui.
> Am I correct in thinking that the CFS/AF is probably the reason that I take supplements and meds that are stimulating for most people, yet for me I become groggy and exhausted?
It begs the question. It's hard to be sure.
> The "heat triggering adrenal responses" also ties in with the cholinergic urticaria.
Yes, via sympathetic nervous stimulation (mediated, in part, via the HPA).
> Sometimes I think why do I have so many of these strange conditions. Maybe I'm just a hypochondriac but the truth is that they're all related.
Yes, they are related.
> You start with one of them and they can easily lead to all of the others. If I'm interpreting you correctly, they even lead to how you react to alternative and pharmaceutical antidepressants.
That is a conclusion I have reached, yes.
> (OK, maybe that was a little more than one question.)
>
> KaraI can't count.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 15:16:20
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 22, 2004, at 10:38:50
> > In a post to Ilene on the health board you wrote:
> >
> > "One of your links connected the specific effect to a parodoxical response to adrenaline. The key disruption in CFS is, IMHO, adrenal. Heat and psychological stressors can both trigger adrenal responses...."
> >
> > I think this ties in to what you were trying to tell me in an earlier post. My CFS and adrenal fatigue are perhaps more related than I realized. They would also explain the paradoxical responses I've had to noradrenergic supplements and medications, no?
>
> Oui.
>
> > Am I correct in thinking that the CFS/AF is probably the reason that I take supplements and meds that are stimulating for most people, yet for me I become groggy and exhausted?
>
> It begs the question. It's hard to be sure.
>
> > The "heat triggering adrenal responses" also ties in with the cholinergic urticaria.
>
> Yes, via sympathetic nervous stimulation (mediated, in part, via the HPA).
>
> > Sometimes I think why do I have so many of these strange conditions. Maybe I'm just a hypochondriac but the truth is that they're all related.
>
> Yes, they are related.
>
> > You start with one of them and they can easily lead to all of the others. If I'm interpreting you correctly, they even lead to how you react to alternative and pharmaceutical antidepressants.
>
> That is a conclusion I have reached, yes.
>
> > (OK, maybe that was a little more than one question.)
> >
> > Kara
>
> I can't count.
>
> LarI was "counting" on that!
"One" more question:
I still don't quite understand why stimulant medications or supplements are so bad for you when you have adrenal fatigue. Stimulants effect mostly dopamine, right? Why is that so bad for you with AF? I would think that the noradrenergics would be the ones that would tax your adrenal system????? What am I missing or not getting here?
- Confused in LA
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 28, 2004, at 8:57:54
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 22, 2004, at 15:16:20
> I was "counting" on that!
<Spock eyebrow>
> "One" more question:
>
> I still don't quite understand why stimulant medications or supplements are so bad for you when you have adrenal fatigue. Stimulants effect mostly dopamine, right? Why is that so bad for you with AF? I would think that the noradrenergics would be the ones that would tax your adrenal system????? What am I missing or not getting here?
>
> - Confused in LATo restrict your thinking of the effects of stimulants to dopaminergic activity is what is limiting your comprehension, here. What does the dopamine do to other systems? It causes enhanced output of epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine, via sympathetic nervous mechanisms.
Adrenal fatigue could well be compared to type 2 diabetes, in some respects. Over-stimulation of the pancreas (due to decreased sensitivity to insulin) eventually weakens the pancreas, and it sputters and fails. Over-stimulation of the adrenals also weakens them, and they begin to sputter and fail. If you stimulate them even further (as with stimulant drugs), you will get an increase in output (if they're working at all), but the response will be brief, and the subsequent collapse in function will be all the more abrupt. You'll be flogging a dying horse.
The treatment that works is to rest the adrenals, not to flog them.
Lar
Posted by KaraS on August 28, 2004, at 16:09:02
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on August 28, 2004, at 8:57:54
> > I was "counting" on that!
>
> <Spock eyebrow>
>
> > "One" more question:
> >
> > I still don't quite understand why stimulant medications or supplements are so bad for you when you have adrenal fatigue. Stimulants effect mostly dopamine, right? Why is that so bad for you with AF? I would think that the noradrenergics would be the ones that would tax your adrenal system????? What am I missing or not getting here?
> >
> > - Confused in LA
>
> To restrict your thinking of the effects of stimulants to dopaminergic activity is what is limiting your comprehension, here. What does the dopamine do to other systems? It causes enhanced output of epinephrine (adrenaline) and norepinephrine, via sympathetic nervous mechanisms.
>
> Adrenal fatigue could well be compared to type 2 diabetes, in some respects. Over-stimulation of the pancreas (due to decreased sensitivity to insulin) eventually weakens the pancreas, and it sputters and fails. Over-stimulation of the adrenals also weakens them, and they begin to sputter and fail. If you stimulate them even further (as with stimulant drugs), you will get an increase in output (if they're working at all), but the response will be brief, and the subsequent collapse in function will be all the more abrupt. You'll be flogging a dying horse.
>
> The treatment that works is to rest the adrenals, not to flog them.
>
> LarOk, I get it. (You only had to tell me 10 times.) Your article recommended taking 100 mg. of tyrosine per day. That's a small amount and that's just making sure the adrenal system gets its raw materials, right? It's not to get you stimulated. It's so difficult to have anergic depression, brain fog and adrenal fatigue at the same time. What's good for the first two is deadly for the last one. (And did I mention I'm under the gun?????)
-K
Posted by KaraS on August 28, 2004, at 22:57:22
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry » Larry Hoover, posted by KaraS on August 28, 2004, at 16:09:02
Bottom line, is there any way to safely increase NE and/or DA in the synapses of the brain without effecting the adrenals? I doubt it but I felt I had to ask.
Also, since I'm probably going to rule out selegiline and SJW as the next antid's to try, what about Cymbalta. It boosts NE but it is not activating. (Why it isn't activating is puzzling to me though I'm guessing it has to do with where it targets in the brain?) But since it isn't stimulating, shouldn't it be an ok choice for me to try now?
Posted by KaraS on September 1, 2004, at 0:21:30
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry, posted by KaraS on August 28, 2004, at 22:57:22
Lar,
This post is still open:
> Bottom line, is there any way to safely increase NE and/or DA in the synapses of the brain without effecting the adrenals? I doubt it but I felt I had to ask.
>
> Also, since I'm probably going to rule out selegiline and SJW as the next antid's to try, what about Cymbalta. It boosts NE but it is not activating. (Why it isn't activating is puzzling to me though I'm guessing it has to do with where it targets in the brain?) But since it isn't stimulating, shouldn't it be an ok choice for me to try now?
>
>Thanks.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 9:38:26
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry, posted by KaraS on September 1, 2004, at 0:21:30
> Lar,
> This post is still open:
>
>
> > Bottom line, is there any way to safely increase NE and/or DA in the synapses of the brain without effecting the adrenals? I doubt it but I felt I had to ask.Tyrosine or phenylalanine ought to do that nicely. There is a vast range in the ability to tolerate them, so you may need to experiment a bit.
> > Also, since I'm probably going to rule out selegiline and SJW as the next antid's to try, what about Cymbalta. It boosts NE but it is not activating. (Why it isn't activating is puzzling to me though I'm guessing it has to do with where it targets in the brain?) But since it isn't stimulating, shouldn't it be an ok choice for me to try now?
I do not feel comfortable commenting on such a new antidepressant drug. Many such drugs have not lived up to their hype.
Why do you not want to try low-dose selegiline? Remind me, okay?
>
> Thanks.Lar
Posted by KaraS on September 5, 2004, at 15:22:00
In reply to Re: One question on CFS, adrenaline and NE -Larry » KaraS, posted by Larry Hoover on September 5, 2004, at 9:38:26
> > Lar,
> > This post is still open:
> >
> >
> > > Bottom line, is there any way to safely increase NE and/or DA in the synapses of the brain without effecting the adrenals? I doubt it but I felt I had to ask.
>
> Tyrosine or phenylalanine ought to do that nicely. There is a vast range in the ability to tolerate them, so you may need to experiment a bit.I've tried them before with some small effect from DLPA but nothing at all from tyrosine. Now that I just received that brain fog message from Ray with all of the DLPA info, I'm going to try them again with adjustments. (2 posts in a row leading me back to trying them. Me thinks the gods are trying to tell me something...)
> > > Also, since I'm probably going to rule out selegiline and SJW as the next antid's to try, what about Cymbalta. It boosts NE but it is not activating. (Why it isn't activating is puzzling to me though I'm guessing it has to do with where it targets in the brain?) But since it isn't stimulating, shouldn't it be an ok choice for me to try now?
>
> I do not feel comfortable commenting on such a new antidepressant drug. Many such drugs have not lived up to their hype.
>
> Why do you not want to try low-dose selegiline? Remind me, okay?Low dose selegiline is probably not good for adrenal fatigue as it's a stimulant, no? Also, when I tried it last, it made me tired for a few hours (and I had to take coffee with it in order to be alert at my temp job). I took it around lunchtime and then at around 9:00 or 10:00 at night I finally felt the stimulation kick in - just when I didn't need it. Strange, eh? Or maybe not so strange when you have adrenal fatigue and CFS.
> > Thanks.
>
> LarThanks,
-K
This is the end of the thread.
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