![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 16 of 16. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Indie on July 17, 2004, at 10:43:53
Hi. I've never posted to this board before, but I have one big question. Where do I start if I want to start nutritional therapy? I have been reading this board and compiled a list of thirty vitamins, minerals and amino acids that are supposed to help with depression and I have no idea where to start. I have been looking into getting tests done to find out where I am deficient but from reading here it seems that nobody has had great success with tests.
Here is a list of the tests that I am currently looking into:
1) http://www.spectracell.com/ - My pdoc worked on this project when it was in its earliest stages. It measures vitamin, mineral and amino acid levels. My doc has alot of confidence in this one. The downfall is its $600 price tag which I don't want to pay unless it is going to help.
2) http://www.neurorelief.com/ - My pharmacist gave me the kit to collect samples and send them in. They have a nutritionalist who works with people on various problems and advise people to do this test before starting any regiment. The price is good but there must be a catch...if neurotransmiter testing were possible, wouldn't everybody be doing it? My doc is sceptical, but said it couldn't hurt so he said I should try it if I want.
3)http://www.hriptc.org/ - Found this one looking at this board but nobody seemed to have a positive result. Has anybody had good results here?? Very expensive but, again, if it helps it's worth it. That's what credit cards are for right :)
Anyway, I am just looking for any feed back on these tests and, barring testing, if anybody has any advice on where to start.
I am BPII and have been on the depressed side for over a year ranging from lethargic and uninspired to severly suicidal. About three months ago I attempted suicide, an act for which I will never forgive myself. Anyway, nothing seems to be working, including ECT which workd like a charm in the past. My current meds are:
300mg lamictal
65mg Strattera
5mg zyprexa
100mg elavilAll taken PM.
Xanax when needed.
I have started taking a B-Complex and have fish oil but if I am going to get tested I don't want to take much of anything so that I can get a good idea of my levels without supplements.
Thanks for reading through all of this, I am just confused about where to start. Any advice would be much appreciated.
Indie
Posted by Patient on July 17, 2004, at 15:27:59
In reply to Where to start??, posted by Indie on July 17, 2004, at 10:43:53
Hi,
I'd start out on a daily multi-vit/min complex. If your female get one with iron, if your male, get it w/o.
I like NOW brand, Vitamin Shoppe brand, Twinlab (Dualtabs Multi Vit-Min), Solgar (expensive brand but high quality) for multi vit/mins, and avoid the store brands.
Very important: you should consider a free-form amino acid complex, L-tyrosine (note: do not take this if you are taking an MAO inhibitor AD), taurine, Vitamin B complex in at least a 50mg ratio of the major B vits, plus extra B-6 (no more than 100mgs of daily total from all supplements), vit B-12 lozenges or dots, melt under your tongue (sublingual)-take B-12 on empty stomach (I like to take it at bedtime-helps with melatonin production), 50mg zinc plus 3mg copper. Helpful is Essential Fatty Acids.
Since you've been diagnosed BP11 than it would be wise to avoid SAMe, avoid choline and the singular amino acids ornithine and arginine. These substances may make symtoms worse. Avoid DMAE (dimethylaminoethanol) which is part of the choline betain cycle, as well as supplemental lecithin, which consists mostly of the B vitamin choline. I like multi vitamin mineral formulas where the recommonded dosage is 3 or 4 times a day, instead of the once daily forms. It's better to spread these nutrients a little over the day, than one big amount all at once. I avoid taking Vitamin B complex in evening for it has tendency to cause insomnia or too much energy when it's time for me to relax and get ready for bedtime.
Another helpful supplement is calcium, magnesium, and vitamin D taken at bedtime. This combination helps for a good night's sleep, as well as can be taken separately from other supplements. Can be taken on empty stomach.
Hope this helps. As for me, I'd avoid the tests and see how you respond to any supplement you start taking. Keep a drug/supplement/food journal and you'll soon know what helps and what doesn't.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 9:41:07
In reply to Re: Where to start? Multi vit/min complex, posted by Patient on July 17, 2004, at 15:27:59
> 50mg zinc plus 3mg copper. Helpful is Essential Fatty Acids.
The Upper Limit for zinc intake is 40 mg. LOAEL (Lowest Observable Adverse Effect Level) is 60 mg. As most people get around 10 mg from diet, your recommendation is excessive, IMHO. See:
http://books.nap.edu/books/0309072794/html/486.html#pagetopThe reason zinc intake must be limited is because it directly competes against copper (and wins) for uptake. I have no idea if 3 mg of copper is sufficient compensatory intake. Far better just to stay lower on the zinc, IMHO.
I did not do a detailed mental analysis of your post, but this stood out. I also note no selenium supplementation (200 mcg/day), essential for neuronal protection against oxidative mechanisms, and at least some chromium, perhaps 100 mcg/day.
Your cautions about certain potentially excitatory supplements are excellent, but I tend towards more tightly focussed symptomatic treatment rules rather than ones based on the broader diagnostic categories. Few people fit nicely into those diagnostic pigeon-holes.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 10:09:20
In reply to Where to start??, posted by Indie on July 17, 2004, at 10:43:53
> Hi. I've never posted to this board before, but I have one big question. Where do I start if I want to start nutritional therapy?
There are general recommendations, and symptom-specific recommendations. Patient has done a pretty good job of covering the general guidelines.
> I have been reading this board and compiled a list of thirty vitamins, minerals and amino acids that are supposed to help with depression and I have no idea where to start.
As a general rule of thumb, starting a general supplementation regime is what I would recommend. Basically, a broad-spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement program, plus fish oil. Don't jump in at maximum dose, either. There's no rush. Let your body adapt. After you've been on that for at least six or eight weeks (and assuming specific adverse events have not arisen), then you can start more targetted interventions.
> I have been looking into getting tests done to find out where I am deficient but from reading here it seems that nobody has had great success with tests.
I personally do not believe that any of them are useful to identify functional nutrient deficiencies. Certain gross deficiencies can be identified by tests, but you'll never know how individual tissues are doing without sampling each and every one.
> Here is a list of the tests that I am currently looking into:
>
> 1) http://www.spectracell.com/ - My pdoc worked on this project when it was in its earliest stages. It measures vitamin, mineral and amino acid levels. My doc has alot of confidence in this one. The downfall is its $600 price tag which I don't want to pay unless it is going to help.It measures *some* vitamin, mineral, and amino acid levels. It assumes that leukocyte exposure to nutrients can be used inferentially. In essence, their argument is that leukocyte exposure can be used as an assumed integral (area under the nutrient intake curve) of nutrient exposure. But leukocytes are not simply storehouses for nutrients. Still, this is the best method I've yet considered, but its assumptions don't wholly satisfy me. Why spend the $600? They have a neat little table which shows which test analytes are most often found to be deficient. Another argument against their protocol is that they standardized the tests on "normal" subjects. Fact is, "normal" people are demonstrably deficient in nutrient intake, to begin with.
Here's a table of zinc intake in the United States. Roughly half the population fails to meet the threshold for adequate zinc intake (and adequate intake is only 77% of the RDA (see footnote 1)). RDA is defined as that level of intake that allows 1 in 40 normal healthy people to exhibit overt deficiency symptoms. You cannot meet even the RDA (of all nutrients for which RDAs have been established) by diet alone.
http://www.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/130/5/1367S/T4Another criticism is one that applies to all test modalities. The only way to confirm a deficiency of a nutrient is to challenge the subject with that nutrient, and observe if the associated symptoms of that deficiency remit. In other words, you take some, and you watch what happens. Tests aren't required to do the experiment, eh?
> 2) http://www.neurorelief.com/ - My pharmacist gave me the kit to collect samples and send them in. They have a nutritionalist who works with people on various problems and advise people to do this test before starting any regiment. The price is good but there must be a catch...if neurotransmiter testing were possible, wouldn't everybody be doing it? My doc is sceptical, but said it couldn't hurt so he said I should try it if I want.Your intuition is absolutely correct. Urine tests reliably keep the test lab's revenue above zero. Nothing more.
> 3)http://www.hriptc.org/ - Found this one looking at this board but nobody seemed to have a positive result. Has anybody had good results here?? Very expensive but, again, if it helps it's worth it. That's what credit cards are for right :)
I don't trust the people running Pfeiffer are doing anything other than running a business. Pfeiffer is dead, and with him went the spirit of the business. Nothing new from them in a couple decades, despite major advances in medical-testing technology.
> Anyway, I am just looking for any feed back on these tests and, barring testing, if anybody has any advice on where to start.
Patient gave the gist. Make sure you check out my comments to Patient's post, too.
> I am BPII and have been on the depressed side for over a year ranging from lethargic and uninspired to severly suicidal. About three months ago I attempted suicide, an act for which I will never forgive myself. Anyway, nothing seems to be working, including ECT which workd like a charm in the past. My current meds are:
>
> 300mg lamictal
> 65mg Strattera
> 5mg zyprexa
> 100mg elavil
>
> All taken PM.
>
> Xanax when needed.
>
> I have started taking a B-Complex and have fish oil but if I am going to get tested I don't want to take much of anything so that I can get a good idea of my levels without supplements.The most substantial impact of any supplement may come from the fish oil alone. Please don't hesitate. Tests may give a sort of intellectual satisfaction, but in any case, you have to verify that by actually doing supplement trials.
> Thanks for reading through all of this, I am just confused about where to start. Any advice would be much appreciated.
>
> IndieFeel free to ask as many questions as you want. I've barely scraped the surface with my comments. You didn't get sick in one day. Don't expect to get well in one day. Find the pieces of the puzzle that work for you. It's going to take a while, to do that.
Best,
Lar
Posted by Indie on July 18, 2004, at 16:59:49
In reply to Re: Where to start?? » Indie, posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 10:09:20
Thanks for all of the info Patient and Lar. I will start with a vitamin/mineral supplement and Fish oil tomorrow as well as continuing with B supplements. I am going to do the urine test that my pharmasist gave me just out of curiousity. I just have a few more questions.
1) With a B complex, is there any danger of overload? I have Glycogenics B-Complex which says to take twice daily which seems odd as all of the B's have between 200% and 4000% of RDA per capsule. My doc once mentioned that if you take too much vitamin B your body will quit producing it...Any comments?
2) Should I start the Amino Acid complex at the same time as the rest. I have read some pretty compelling evidence that alot of the AAs are at play in depression, especially L-Tyrosine, L-Tryptophan and L-Glutamine. Is it good to take the complex or should specific amino acids be targeted?
3) In the amino acid class, is L-Glutamic Acid the same as L-Glutamine?
4) Far from having concerns with insomnia, I am experiencing extreme hypersomnia. Today I got up at 9AM and read some, worked out and made some breakfast. I was so tired afterward that I took a nap from 2-4. The other day I fell asleep at 7:30PM and didn't wake up until 9:30 AM the next day. I pretty much need 10-12 hours of sleep a night and then I still barely function. I do not know if it is the meds I am on or a combination of that and depression. Do you have any ideas of what might help with that??
Thanks for any input.
Indie
Posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 13:06:38
In reply to Re: Where to start? Multi vit/min complex » Patient, posted by Larry Hoover on July 18, 2004, at 9:41:07
> > 50mg zinc plus 3mg copper. Helpful is Essential Fatty Acids.
>
> The Upper Limit for zinc intake is 40 mg. LOAEL (Lowest Observable Adverse Effect Level) is 60 mg. As most people get around 10 mg from diet, your recommendation is excessive, IMHO. See:
> http://books.nap.edu/books/0309072794/html/486.html#pagetop
>
> The reason zinc intake must be limited is because it directly competes against copper (and wins) for uptake. I have no idea if 3 mg of copper is sufficient compensatory intake. Far better just to stay lower on the zinc, IMHO.
>
> I did not do a detailed mental analysis of your post, but this stood out. I also note no selenium supplementation (200 mcg/day), essential for neuronal protection against oxidative mechanisms, and at least some chromium, perhaps 100 mcg/day.
>
> Your cautions about certain potentially excitatory supplements are excellent, but I tend towards more tightly focussed symptomatic treatment rules rather than ones based on the broader diagnostic categories. Few people fit nicely into those diagnostic pigeon-holes.
>
> Lar
>I see no concern for zinc 50mg or higher, but definitely not more than 100mg daily total from all supplements. But, it also doesn't hurt to take less than 50mg. Zinc levels may be lowered by diarrhea, kidney disease, cirrhosis of the liver, diabetes, or the consumption of fiber, which causes zinc to be excreted through the intestinal tract.
As well as a significant amount is lost through persipiration, as well as the consumption of hard water can upset zince levels, and, compounds called phytates that are found in grains and legumes bind with zinc so that it cannot be absorbed, are some of the reasons that I see 50 mg zinc being safe. I should tell India that zinc and iron supplements should be taken at different times as these two minerals interfere with each other's activity if taken together.For optimal health, a proper 1 - to 10 balance between copper and zinc should be maintained. (oh no, I think I saw your jaw drop). This is what I've been taking and it has especially helped with PMS time of month for me. It's true, every body is different from meds. to supplements. That is why I think one should keep a daily journal on their reactions. As for copper, the level of copper in the body is relaated to the levels of zinc, as you said, as well as vitamin C. Copper levels are reduced if large amounts of zinc or vitamin C are consumed. If copper is too high, levels of vitamin C and zinc will drop. The consumption of high amounts of fructose (fruit sugar) can make a copper deficiency worse. Excessive copper is not good, either, as it can promote destruction of eye tissue through oxidation. It's especially important to balance the intake of copper with that of iron, zinc, and calcium. A tangent, but wanted to mention it since all of these supplements are like a fine tuned orchestra and must be taken in balance for best results and safety reasons.
Selenium and chromium picolinate are found in the quality multi vit/mins I mentioned, usually in those ratios, some lower -50mcg and 100mcg respectively. It is a good suggestion. I take vit. E/w selenium as a separate supplement, as well as chormium picolinate, but do not take these daily, but maybe 3 times a week.
I tend to caution on the side of shying from the mentioned excitatory supplements to prevent mania in those where mania is a symptom.
That's it really, Pat
Posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 14:45:43
In reply to Re: Where to start??, posted by Indie on July 18, 2004, at 16:59:49
> Thanks for all of the info Patient and Lar. I will start with a vitamin/mineral supplement and Fish oil tomorrow as well as continuing with B supplements. I am going to do the urine test that my pharmasist gave me just out of curiousity. I just have a few more questions.
>
> 1) With a B complex, is there any danger of overload? I have Glycogenics B-Complex which says to take twice daily which seems odd as all of the B's have between 200% and 4000% of RDA per capsule. My doc once mentioned that if you take too much vitamin B your body will quit producing it...Any comments?
>
> 2) Should I start the Amino Acid complex at the same time as the rest. I have read some pretty compelling evidence that alot of the AAs are at play in depression, especially L-Tyrosine, L-Tryptophan and L-Glutamine. Is it good to take the complex or should specific amino acids be targeted?
>
> 3) In the amino acid class, is L-Glutamic Acid the same as L-Glutamine?
>
> 4) Far from having concerns with insomnia, I am experiencing extreme hypersomnia. Today I got up at 9AM and read some, worked out and made some breakfast. I was so tired afterward that I took a nap from 2-4. The other day I fell asleep at 7:30PM and didn't wake up until 9:30 AM the next day. I pretty much need 10-12 hours of sleep a night and then I still barely function. I do not know if it is the meds I am on or a combination of that and depression. Do you have any ideas of what might help with that??
>
> Thanks for any input.
>
> IndieHi, and your welcome. Good questions. I'll try and be of help, but I'm sure others will be helpful for you as well.
That ratio of B vits you have, sounds like it's in a 50mg to 75mg of all major B vitamins. That isn't too high for you. The body doesn't create B vitamins-you get them through your diet. The B vits are water-soluble and aren't stored, so you must get them through your dialy diet. The only exception to this is Vit B-12 which can be stored for up to 5 years in the body. Maybe he was thinking of supplemental hormones that are created in the body, such as melatonin of DHEA. These supplements should only be taken for no more than a month, then discontinue for two months. If taken daily for long periods of time researchers beleive that the body may forget to produce these hormones on their own. Other cautions include singular amino acids. Researchers warn that individual amino acids should not be taken for long periods of time. A good rule to follow is to alternate the individual amino acids that fit your needs and back them up with an amino acid complex, taking the supplements for two months and then discontinuing them for two months. Moderation is the key. Some amino acids have potentially toxic effects when taken in high doses (over 6,000 milligrams per day) and may cause neurological damage.
Amino acid complex is needed to supply protein, and for normal brain function and to combat depression. You can start by taking the amino acid complex and if you feel you would like to add additional singular amino acids, then the best way to take them is this: When taking individual amino acids take them on an empty stomach to avoid making them compete for absorption with the amino acids present in foods. When taking individual amino acids, it is best to take them in the morning or between meals, with small amounts of vitamin B6 and vitamin C to enhance absorption. When taking an amino acid complex that includes all of the essential amino acids, it is best to take it one-half hour before or one-half hour after a meal. If you do decide to take individual amino acids to target your needs, it is wise to take a full amino acid complex, including both essentential and non-essential amino acids, and to take them at a different time. This is the best way to assure you have adequate amounts of all the necessary amino acids.
Glutamic acid is an excitatory neurotransmitter than increases the firing of neurons in the central nervous system. It is a major excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain and spinal cord. It is converted into either glutamine or GABA. Glutamic acid can detoxify ammonia by picking up nitrogen atoms, in the process creating another amino acid, glutamine. The conversion of glutamic acid into glutamine is the only means by which ammonia in the brain can be detoxified. Glutamic acid helps correct personality disorders and is useful in treating childhood behavioral disorders. It is used in the treatment of epilepsy, mental retardation, muscular dystrophy, ulcers, and hypoglycemic coma,a complication of insulin treatment for diabetes. It is a component of folate (folic acid), a B vitamin that helps break down amino acids. If you are allergic to MSG (monosodium glutamate) one should avoid glutamic acid because one of its salts is MSG.
Glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid found in the muscles of the body. Because it can readily pass the blood-brain barrier, it is known as brain fuel. In the brain, glutamine is converted into glutamic acid-which is essential for cerebral function-and vice versa. It also increases the amount of GABA, which is needed to sustain proper brain function and mental activity. It assists in maintaining the proper acid/alkaline balance in the body, and is the basis of the building blocks for the synthesis of RNA and DNA. It promotes mental ability and the maintenance of a healthy digestive tract. Supplemental L-glutamine can be helpful in the treatment of arthritis, autoimmune diseases, fibrosis, intestinal disorders, peptic ulcers, polymyositis and scleroderma, both connective tissue disorders, and tissue damage due to radiation treatment for cnacer. L-glutamine can enhance mental functioning and has been used to treat a range of problems, including developmental disabilities, epilepsy, fatigue, impotence, depression, schizophrenia, and senility. L-glutamine decreases sugar cravings and the desire for alcohol, and is useful for recovering alcoholics.
Concerning the hypersomnia, I haven't any ideas about that. I would want to know your med. dosing schedule, amounts, and how long this has occured. What do you take each med. for? It may offer more insight. What's your normal sleep/wake pattern? It could be one of the meds. or a combination of certain meds. is disrupting your sleep REM cycles. Your body is playing catch up or something. I'd try taking singular vit. B-12 in lozenge form taken at bedtime on empty stomach. I take Twinlabs vit. B-12 dots sublingual, 500mcg. Sometimes sleep pattern changes from meds. do not show up right away after starting a med. regimen. I can sleep like a baby after starting Celexa, then about 4 months later I begin to start waking up several times in the night, unable to go back to sleep. It could also be a cause for any new stressor in your life, any changes in the normal routine can cause it.
Hope this helps, Pat
Posted by Indie on July 19, 2004, at 22:56:11
In reply to Re: Where to start?-Indie, posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 14:45:43
OK, so I talked to my mother last night and saw my p-doc today. As per testing discussed earlier in the thread, they both seemed to be of the "leave no stone unturned" philosophy and mom offered to pay for the lab tests. So, at the end of the month, I will be having the spectracell blood test (http://www.spectracell.com/) and the NeuroScience urine test (http://www.neurorelief.com/) done. Until then I will not be taking any Vitamin/Mineral supplements so that I can get a base-line of my nutrient levels taken. I will be taking Omega 3 supplements (5 grams/day). I will report with results of the tests in case anybody is curious about testing.
In the meantime, my doc has decided that he wants to try me on SAM-e as he has had great success with it in a couple of Bipolar patients. I asked him about the danger of inducing mania and he said that it was highly unlikely. I am also on 300mg Lamictal/day and 5 mg Zyprexa/day as mood stabalizers, so that further decreases the risk of mania (My manias are pretty easy to control anyway) I later spoke to a pharmacist and a nutritionalist about the risk of mania and the both agreed that it really isn't a danger.
As to taking SAM-e with other antidepressants, again, nobody thought that it was a risk (I have been on Elavil for over six months with little to no response.) I am a bit concerned about it all because I have seen so much warning about use with bi-polar patients and patients taking ADs. But with everybody that I consult irl about my health saying that it is OK I am going to go ahead and try it.
So...Here is my current regiment until I have the tests done on July 29:
Lamictal, 300mg. Bed time.
Elavil, 100mg. Bed time.
Zyprexa, 5mg. Bed time.
Omega 3, 2.5grams twice daily with meals.
SAM-e, 400mg. Morning
Homocysteine Protection Formula (15mg Vitamin B6, 250 mcg Methyl B12, 400mcg Folic Acid, 500mg Trimethylglycine) 1 Tab daily with a meal.
Whew, that seems like alot of stuff to me!!
Does anybody have any actual experience with SAM-e causing mania? Has anybody had any problems with taking SAM-e with ADs? Does anybody know what the deal is with the Homocystein stuff? (My doc recommended it and my pharmacist said something to the effect of it, in conjunction with SAM-e, will help balance out hormone and neurotransmitters and help detoxify the brain...the science of it was a bit over my head.) Any comments or suggestions on my current path to healing are more than welcome!!
Indie.
Posted by gabbix2 on July 21, 2004, at 2:23:31
In reply to Re: Where to start?-Indie, posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 14:45:43
> Glutamic acid is an excitatory neurotransmitter than increases the firing of neurons in the central nervous system. It is a major excitatory neurotransmitter in the brain and spinal cord. It is converted into either glutamine or GABA. Glutamic acid can detoxify ammonia by picking up nitrogen atoms, in the process creating another amino acid, glutamine. The conversion of glutamic acid into glutamine is the only means by which ammonia in the brain can be detoxified. Glutamic acid helps correct personality disorders and is useful in treating childhood behavioral disorders. <snip> >Glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid found in the muscles of the body. Because it can readily pass the blood-brain barrier, it is known as brain fuel. In the brain, glutamine is converted into glutamic acid-which is essential for cerebral function-and vice versa.<snip>
This information was taken directly from
"Prescriptions for Nutritional Healing"
James F. Balch, M.D Phyllis A. Balch, C.N.CIt's necessary to cite your references when quoting published material.
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 21, 2004, at 10:43:32
In reply to Re: Multi vit/min complex-Larry, posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 13:06:38
> > > 50mg zinc plus 3mg copper. Helpful is Essential Fatty Acids.
> >
> > The Upper Limit for zinc intake is 40 mg. LOAEL (Lowest Observable Adverse Effect Level) is 60 mg. As most people get around 10 mg from diet, your recommendation is excessive, IMHO. See:
> > http://books.nap.edu/books/0309072794/html/486.html#pagetop
> >
> > The reason zinc intake must be limited is because it directly competes against copper (and wins) for uptake. I have no idea if 3 mg of copper is sufficient compensatory intake. Far better just to stay lower on the zinc, IMHO.I feel an essay coming on, but I also fear that I am debating with a textbook. A single textbook, perhaps. Que sera.
> I see no concern for zinc 50mg or higher, but definitely not more than 100mg daily total from all supplements. But, it also doesn't hurt to take less than 50mg. Zinc levels may be lowered by diarrhea, kidney disease, cirrhosis of the liver, diabetes, or the consumption of fiber, which causes zinc to be excreted through the intestinal tract.
> As well as a significant amount is lost through persipiration, as well as the consumption of hard water can upset zince levels, and, compounds called phytates that are found in grains and legumes bind with zinc so that it cannot be absorbed, are some of the reasons that I see 50 mg zinc being safe. I should tell India that zinc and iron supplements should be taken at different times as these two minerals interfere with each other's activity if taken together.I am a professional toxicologist. I see enough potentially dangerous information here that I cannot fail to respond. What is completely absent is the context, the biochemical context, of the doses, the interactions, the risks. This isn't personal, Pat.
Here we go. <essay mode on>
First, about zinc, and the metals, in general.
The metals which are essential for healthy bodily function fall in the class called trace minerals. The concept of "trace" should not ever be overlooked.
Which metals are we talking about? This isn't an exhaustive list, here (really, the only transition metal with no known metabolic benefit, so far, is mercury), but these include manganese, chromium, iron, copper, cobalt, zinc, selenium, molybdenum, arsenic (yes, arsenic, key to SAMe metabolism, and DNA transcription), nickel, vanadium, silicon... Another concept that also makes them distinct is that they must be ionized for substantial uptake from the gut to occur. There are specific ion-binding proteins released into the intestine, and ATP-powered uptake pumps lining the intestinal wall, all specifically adapted to moving metal ions into the bloodstream.
It is essential to recognize something else, right here. We do not yet fully understand how uptake of mineral ions is regulated, but it is a major research topic, with many articles published this month alone. It was once thought that all divalent (twice ionized) mineral cations (the positive ion form) were transported by (tada!) the Divalent Mineral Transporter, Type 1 (DMT-1). Even the one, there, is a clue. We've discovered other forms of this transporter. Zinc alone has at least four variants of the ZnT (Zinc Transporter). DMT-1 is primarily an iron transporter, but other metals do use it, too. And the zinc one gets hitch-hikers. It's not so important that we know how it all works, though. What is important is that active transport across the gut wall, to the bloodstream (which heads directly to the liver, via the portal vein....more on that later), is both regulated, and less than perfect (i.e. no mineral is absorbed at 100% of intake).
Now, back to something Pat talked about earlier, with respect to dietary components interfering with uptake, possible interference by disease, and so on.
First, about dietary interference. The Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA), and Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) or Upper Limit (UL), and similar concepts, are INTAKE thresholds. It is quite incorrect, and dangerous, to consider them to be UPTAKE targets. Dietary interferences, inefficient uptake, and all of that are already factored into those recommendations. Intake is what gets past the teeth. Uptake is assumed. (For example, at 5 mg Copper(II) intake, uptake is about 20%. If copper uptake was 100%, it could have deadly consequences.)
About mineral intake when adverse health conditions exist....Yes, without doubt, there are special considerations for special populations. Diarrhea (for healthy people) is usually a brief event, and as RDA is a concept based on week-long average intake, expressed as a daily target, short-term diarrhea is of no consequence at all. However, intestinal disorders such as diarrhea-predominant IBS, celiac sprue, inflammatory bowel disease, steatorrhea, etc. do require nutritional management. The same holds for frank kidney dysfunction, or liver disease (hepatitis, cirrhosis, etc.). The fact is, if someone has these disorders, they would (or should) be under a doctor's care, and receiving nutritional advice. Absent these health issues, the RDA, TDI, and UL apply, by definition.
As I began this portion of my remarks, I held zinc as a specific topical element, though I have so far been mainly talking about the minerals collectively. That's because zinc is special, amongst all the minerals.
One of zinc's functions is to regulate all mineral transporters. The supposition that zinc has interactions with other minerals is correct, but to call it interference is not. It's simply how it all works. Your body uses zinc as a mineral marker compound. In essence, it uses zinc exposure and uptake to symbolize exposure to all other minerals collectively, as a matter of efficiency. In food, zinc is generally found in relatively narrow concentration ratios with the other minerals. If zinc exposure is low, your body upregulates all the transporters, to increase the efficiency (percentage extracted from the gut) of the cation uptake transporter pumps, for all the minerals simultaneously. If zinc exposure is high, it slows those pumps down.
Zinc, in the body, plays a structural role, more than anything. Unlike other minerals, which tend to be involved as the reactive atoms at the center of huge enzyme proteins, zinc atoms are incorporated within the enzyme to properly fold it (like Origami), via structures called zinc fingers. If you want to look this up, zinc is (usually) a tertiary element of enzyme structure, whereas the reactive site is quaternary.
Also unique amongst all metal cations, zinc requirements are in the tens of miligrams per day. No other transition metal has such a high requirement. Moreover, the toxic intake threshold is only about four times the deficiency intake threshold. No other mineral has anything close to that ratio, except perhaps arsenic. Contrast that with the intake of cobalamin (vitamin B-12, which is a cobalt atom surrounded by a heme-like porphyrin complex) has an RDA of micrograms/day (not visible to the naked eye), yet it has no Upper Limit.
Now, to this specific comment, "I should tell India that zinc and iron supplements should be taken at different times as these two minerals interfere with each other's activity if taken together." That is absolutely false. Iron supplements are in a non-food format (i.e. not bound to heme, for example), and cause direct injury to the intestinal wall, unless zinc is present. See:
Now, to the toxic threshold of zinc intake. Most people get about 10 mg per day of zinc from diet. The RDA is set to avoid deficiency effects, and most people don't meet the RDA, so supplementation is generally warranted, for every person. However, exceeding the Lowest Observeable Adverse Effects Level of 60 mg (the toxic threshold) should only be done under direct medical supervision, and only for such disorders as the copper storage disorder known as Wilson's disease (more on that, in the next section).
> For optimal health, a proper 1 - to 10 balance between copper and zinc should be maintained. (oh no, I think I saw your jaw drop).
Yes, but not for the reason you assume. Your recommendation was 50 mg zinc to 3 mg copper, a ratio of 16.7:1. It would help if you were internally consistent, if nothing else.
> This is what I've been taking and it has especially helped with PMS time of month for me. It's true, every body is different from meds. to supplements. That is why I think one should keep a daily journal on their reactions.
Indeed. Metal toxicoses can be acute (massive single intake) or chronic (long-term excess intake). The failure to note short-term effects is not evidence of safety. "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
> As for copper, the level of copper in the body is relaated to the levels of zinc, as you said, as well as vitamin C.
Copper homeostasis is almost a fluke. Uptake is not copper-specific, as the influences of other metals change uptake parameters no matter what the level of copper exposure actually is. Excretion (a term you mis-applied to zinc, as excretion does not include substances which simply fail to be absorbed, and end up in feces) of copper does not take place via the kidney. If your kidneys are allowing excretion of copper in urine, you'd be on the transplant list. The only route of copper excretion is via an inducible (and very stressful, from a biochemical sense) process in the liver. The liver passes excess copper in bile, but the bile is released upstream from the divalent cation transporters, giving copper another chance at uptake, so excess copper is really a very dangerous condition.
> Copper levels are reduced if large amounts of zinc or vitamin C are consumed. If copper is too high, levels of vitamin C and zinc will drop.
The correlation between copper status and ascorbate metabolism is the opposite of what you infer. Excess copper places the body under ascorbate stress. Period. Vitamin C does not mobilize copper.
The interaction with zinc is quite complex, and still not fully elucidated. However.....
Excess zinc intake (at about the Upper Limit, and perhaps at even lower levels) induces the liver to produce cation-binding proteins called metallothionines. The effect is to sequester the reactive ions, as free circulation of metal ions in the blood causes gross disturbance of oxidative parameters. It isn't yet exactly clear whether increased zinc intake has a greater effect on copper via uptake pumps, or via liver-stressing metallothionines, but the net effect is that circulating copper is reduced. That is exactly why high zinc intake is a recommended therapy for Wilson's disease, which is the copper-based version of the excess iron disorder, hemochromatosis. It takes years for the liver to slowly excrete the excess copper.
And, quite apart from this, I see no direct impact of copper status on zinc status, and no interaction of the three. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8440814
The danger of high blood copper is that it disproportionates the free ion concentration with that bound to the carrier/regulatory protein ceruloplasmin (literally, copper blood protein). There is no divalent cation with higher protein binding affinity than copper. Free copper messes everything up.
Notwithstanding that, copper-based enzymes are some of the absolute "bedrock" enzymes in our body. You cannot form hemoglobin without sufficient copper. There is a specific anemia named after that. Every step of the way from tyrosine through dopamine to norepinephrine depends on copper. (But, both forms of monoamine oxidase are also cerulo-enzymes....you don't want those upregulated if you're depressed.) And, Cu/Zn-SOD (copper-zinc superoxide dismutase, which converts superoxide (O2-) to the less dangerous but still reactive hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)) is part of our antioxidant defense network. Oxygen is the second most corrosive element, and life itself is really just Nature's way of controlling fire. Playing with copper is literally playing with fire.
> The consumption of high amounts of fructose (fruit sugar) can make a copper deficiency worse.
True, but only because fructose metabolism depends on a cerulo-enzyme. In other words, copper deficiency symptoms are partly caused by disordered fructose metabolism. Fructose is a macro-nutrient. The inability to metabolize it is serious business.
> Excessive copper is not good, either, as it can promote destruction of eye tissue through oxidation.
It does more than that. How about liver failure?
> It's especially important to balance the intake of copper with that of iron, zinc, and calcium.
Calcium now? No way. I'm getting tired. Calcium is regulated by the parathyroid... oh forget about it. I'm just going to say, no way.
> A tangent, but wanted to mention it since all of these supplements are like a fine tuned orchestra and must be taken in balance for best results and safety reasons.
We will agree on this point. Increasing zinc intakes to toxic levels, and then trying to compensate for that by increasing intakes of other minerals, or scheduling them at different times, is both dangerous and pointless. All you need do to prevent these difficulties is to keep the zinc intake within safe parameters, in the first place.
> I tend to caution
I don't see caution, here.
> on the side of shying from the mentioned excitatory supplements to prevent mania in those where mania is a symptom.
>
> That's it really, PatMore, in Pat's next post.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 21, 2004, at 10:53:29
In reply to Re: Where to start?-Indie, posted by Patient on July 19, 2004, at 14:45:43
I'm going to focus on just a couple of points.
> Some amino acids have potentially toxic effects when taken in high doses (over 6,000 milligrams per day) and may cause neurological damage.
Dose makes the poison. It would take extraordinary behaviours to induce neurological damage, absent some basic genetic metabolic abnormality.
I wish to now focus on two mutually exclusive explanations.
> Glutamic acid can detoxify ammonia by picking up nitrogen atoms, in the process creating another amino acid, glutamine. The conversion of glutamic acid into glutamine is the only means by which ammonia in the brain can be detoxified.
> Glutamine is the most abundant free amino acid found in the muscles of the body. Because it can readily pass the blood-brain barrier, it is known as brain fuel. In the brain, glutamine is converted into glutamic acid-which is essential for cerebral function-and vice versa.
If glutamine is converted to glutamic acid, you are left with ammonia once again. If the former explanation that glutamic acid mops up ammonia via transformation to glutamine holds, and that ammonia is otherwise neurotoxic, then the latter postulate that glutamine is brain fuel cannot possibly be true.
In other words, there is far more to this story than the simplistic explanations with which we have been provided. Modelling, or any other simplification (including those which I provide), inevitably involve the loss of information, and thus of real-life application. The simpler the explanation, the less useful it becomes. Please always consider that factor when you are trying to understand a complex phenomenon.
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 21, 2004, at 10:54:35
In reply to Re: Where to start » Patient, posted by gabbix2 on July 21, 2004, at 2:23:31
> This information was taken directly from
> "Prescriptions for Nutritional Healing"
> James F. Balch, M.D Phyllis A. Balch, C.N.C
>
> It's necessary to cite your references when quoting published material.Thanks, gabbi. That explains a lot.
Lar
Posted by gabbix2 on July 22, 2004, at 17:13:04
In reply to Re: Where to start » gabbix2, posted by Larry Hoover on July 21, 2004, at 10:54:35
> > It's necessary to cite your references when quoting published material.
>
> Thanks, gabbi. That explains a lot.
>
> LarNo problem, it seems nit-picky but you know I've been around here for a while and there have been some ugly spats about plagiarism in the past, I think there may even be something written about it in the F.A.Q now.
Posted by Patient on July 22, 2004, at 19:33:36
In reply to Re: Multi vit/min complex-Larry » Patient, posted by Larry Hoover on July 21, 2004, at 10:43:32
> > > > 50mg zinc plus 3mg copper. Helpful is Essential Fatty Acids.
> > >
> > > The Upper Limit for zinc intake is 40 mg. LOAEL (Lowest Observable Adverse Effect Level) is 60 mg. As most people get around 10 mg from diet, your recommendation is excessive, IMHO. See:
> > > http://books.nap.edu/books/0309072794/html/486.html#pagetop
> > >
> > > The reason zinc intake must be limited is because it directly competes against copper (and wins) for uptake. I have no idea if 3 mg of copper is sufficient compensatory intake. Far better just to stay lower on the zinc, IMHO.
>
> I feel an essay coming on, but I also fear that I am debating with a textbook. A single textbook, perhaps. Que sera.
>
> > I see no concern for zinc 50mg or higher, but definitely not more than 100mg daily total from all supplements. But, it also doesn't hurt to take less than 50mg. Zinc levels may be lowered by diarrhea, kidney disease, cirrhosis of the liver, diabetes, or the consumption of fiber, which causes zinc to be excreted through the intestinal tract.
> > As well as a significant amount is lost through persipiration, as well as the consumption of hard water can upset zince levels, and, compounds called phytates that are found in grains and legumes bind with zinc so that it cannot be absorbed, are some of the reasons that I see 50 mg zinc being safe. I should tell India that zinc and iron supplements should be taken at different times as these two minerals interfere with each other's activity if taken together.
>
> I am a professional toxicologist. I see enough potentially dangerous information here that I cannot fail to respond. What is completely absent is the context, the biochemical context, of the doses, the interactions, the risks. This isn't personal, Pat.
>
> Here we go. <essay mode on>
>
> First, about zinc, and the metals, in general.
>
> The metals which are essential for healthy bodily function fall in the class called trace minerals. The concept of "trace" should not ever be overlooked.
>
> Which metals are we talking about? This isn't an exhaustive list, here (really, the only transition metal with no known metabolic benefit, so far, is mercury), but these include manganese, chromium, iron, copper, cobalt, zinc, selenium, molybdenum, arsenic (yes, arsenic, key to SAMe metabolism, and DNA transcription), nickel, vanadium, silicon... Another concept that also makes them distinct is that they must be ionized for substantial uptake from the gut to occur. There are specific ion-binding proteins released into the intestine, and ATP-powered uptake pumps lining the intestinal wall, all specifically adapted to moving metal ions into the bloodstream.
>
> It is essential to recognize something else, right here. We do not yet fully understand how uptake of mineral ions is regulated, but it is a major research topic, with many articles published this month alone. It was once thought that all divalent (twice ionized) mineral cations (the positive ion form) were transported by (tada!) the Divalent Mineral Transporter, Type 1 (DMT-1). Even the one, there, is a clue. We've discovered other forms of this transporter. Zinc alone has at least four variants of the ZnT (Zinc Transporter). DMT-1 is primarily an iron transporter, but other metals do use it, too. And the zinc one gets hitch-hikers. It's not so important that we know how it all works, though. What is important is that active transport across the gut wall, to the bloodstream (which heads directly to the liver, via the portal vein....more on that later), is both regulated, and less than perfect (i.e. no mineral is absorbed at 100% of intake).
>
> Now, back to something Pat talked about earlier, with respect to dietary components interfering with uptake, possible interference by disease, and so on.
>
> First, about dietary interference. The Recommended Daily Allowance (RDA), and Tolerable Daily Intake (TDI) or Upper Limit (UL), and similar concepts, are INTAKE thresholds. It is quite incorrect, and dangerous, to consider them to be UPTAKE targets. Dietary interferences, inefficient uptake, and all of that are already factored into those recommendations. Intake is what gets past the teeth. Uptake is assumed. (For example, at 5 mg Copper(II) intake, uptake is about 20%. If copper uptake was 100%, it could have deadly consequences.)
>
> About mineral intake when adverse health conditions exist....Yes, without doubt, there are special considerations for special populations. Diarrhea (for healthy people) is usually a brief event, and as RDA is a concept based on week-long average intake, expressed as a daily target, short-term diarrhea is of no consequence at all. However, intestinal disorders such as diarrhea-predominant IBS, celiac sprue, inflammatory bowel disease, steatorrhea, etc. do require nutritional management. The same holds for frank kidney dysfunction, or liver disease (hepatitis, cirrhosis, etc.). The fact is, if someone has these disorders, they would (or should) be under a doctor's care, and receiving nutritional advice. Absent these health issues, the RDA, TDI, and UL apply, by definition.
>
> As I began this portion of my remarks, I held zinc as a specific topical element, though I have so far been mainly talking about the minerals collectively. That's because zinc is special, amongst all the minerals.
>
> One of zinc's functions is to regulate all mineral transporters. The supposition that zinc has interactions with other minerals is correct, but to call it interference is not. It's simply how it all works. Your body uses zinc as a mineral marker compound. In essence, it uses zinc exposure and uptake to symbolize exposure to all other minerals collectively, as a matter of efficiency. In food, zinc is generally found in relatively narrow concentration ratios with the other minerals. If zinc exposure is low, your body upregulates all the transporters, to increase the efficiency (percentage extracted from the gut) of the cation uptake transporter pumps, for all the minerals simultaneously. If zinc exposure is high, it slows those pumps down.
>
> Zinc, in the body, plays a structural role, more than anything. Unlike other minerals, which tend to be involved as the reactive atoms at the center of huge enzyme proteins, zinc atoms are incorporated within the enzyme to properly fold it (like Origami), via structures called zinc fingers. If you want to look this up, zinc is (usually) a tertiary element of enzyme structure, whereas the reactive site is quaternary.
>
> Also unique amongst all metal cations, zinc requirements are in the tens of miligrams per day. No other transition metal has such a high requirement. Moreover, the toxic intake threshold is only about four times the deficiency intake threshold. No other mineral has anything close to that ratio, except perhaps arsenic. Contrast that with the intake of cobalamin (vitamin B-12, which is a cobalt atom surrounded by a heme-like porphyrin complex) has an RDA of micrograms/day (not visible to the naked eye), yet it has no Upper Limit.
>
> Now, to this specific comment, "I should tell India that zinc and iron supplements should be taken at different times as these two minerals interfere with each other's activity if taken together." That is absolutely false. Iron supplements are in a non-food format (i.e. not bound to heme, for example), and cause direct injury to the intestinal wall, unless zinc is present. See:
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15147971
>
> Now, to the toxic threshold of zinc intake. Most people get about 10 mg per day of zinc from diet. The RDA is set to avoid deficiency effects, and most people don't meet the RDA, so supplementation is generally warranted, for every person. However, exceeding the Lowest Observeable Adverse Effects Level of 60 mg (the toxic threshold) should only be done under direct medical supervision, and only for such disorders as the copper storage disorder known as Wilson's disease (more on that, in the next section).
>
> > For optimal health, a proper 1 - to 10 balance between copper and zinc should be maintained. (oh no, I think I saw your jaw drop).
>
> Yes, but not for the reason you assume. Your recommendation was 50 mg zinc to 3 mg copper, a ratio of 16.7:1. It would help if you were internally consistent, if nothing else.
>
> > This is what I've been taking and it has especially helped with PMS time of month for me. It's true, every body is different from meds. to supplements. That is why I think one should keep a daily journal on their reactions.
>
> Indeed. Metal toxicoses can be acute (massive single intake) or chronic (long-term excess intake). The failure to note short-term effects is not evidence of safety. "The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
>
> > As for copper, the level of copper in the body is relaated to the levels of zinc, as you said, as well as vitamin C.
>
> Copper homeostasis is almost a fluke. Uptake is not copper-specific, as the influences of other metals change uptake parameters no matter what the level of copper exposure actually is. Excretion (a term you mis-applied to zinc, as excretion does not include substances which simply fail to be absorbed, and end up in feces) of copper does not take place via the kidney. If your kidneys are allowing excretion of copper in urine, you'd be on the transplant list. The only route of copper excretion is via an inducible (and very stressful, from a biochemical sense) process in the liver. The liver passes excess copper in bile, but the bile is released upstream from the divalent cation transporters, giving copper another chance at uptake, so excess copper is really a very dangerous condition.
>
> > Copper levels are reduced if large amounts of zinc or vitamin C are consumed. If copper is too high, levels of vitamin C and zinc will drop.
>
> The correlation between copper status and ascorbate metabolism is the opposite of what you infer. Excess copper places the body under ascorbate stress. Period. Vitamin C does not mobilize copper.
>
> The interaction with zinc is quite complex, and still not fully elucidated. However.....
>
> Excess zinc intake (at about the Upper Limit, and perhaps at even lower levels) induces the liver to produce cation-binding proteins called metallothionines. The effect is to sequester the reactive ions, as free circulation of metal ions in the blood causes gross disturbance of oxidative parameters. It isn't yet exactly clear whether increased zinc intake has a greater effect on copper via uptake pumps, or via liver-stressing metallothionines, but the net effect is that circulating copper is reduced. That is exactly why high zinc intake is a recommended therapy for Wilson's disease, which is the copper-based version of the excess iron disorder, hemochromatosis. It takes years for the liver to slowly excrete the excess copper.
>
> And, quite apart from this, I see no direct impact of copper status on zinc status, and no interaction of the three. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8440814
>
> The danger of high blood copper is that it disproportionates the free ion concentration with that bound to the carrier/regulatory protein ceruloplasmin (literally, copper blood protein). There is no divalent cation with higher protein binding affinity than copper. Free copper messes everything up.
>
> Notwithstanding that, copper-based enzymes are some of the absolute "bedrock" enzymes in our body. You cannot form hemoglobin without sufficient copper. There is a specific anemia named after that. Every step of the way from tyrosine through dopamine to norepinephrine depends on copper. (But, both forms of monoamine oxidase are also cerulo-enzymes....you don't want those upregulated if you're depressed.) And, Cu/Zn-SOD (copper-zinc superoxide dismutase, which converts superoxide (O2-) to the less dangerous but still reactive hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)) is part of our antioxidant defense network. Oxygen is the second most corrosive element, and life itself is really just Nature's way of controlling fire. Playing with copper is literally playing with fire.
>
> > The consumption of high amounts of fructose (fruit sugar) can make a copper deficiency worse.
>
> True, but only because fructose metabolism depends on a cerulo-enzyme. In other words, copper deficiency symptoms are partly caused by disordered fructose metabolism. Fructose is a macro-nutrient. The inability to metabolize it is serious business.
>
> > Excessive copper is not good, either, as it can promote destruction of eye tissue through oxidation.
>
> It does more than that. How about liver failure?
>
> > It's especially important to balance the intake of copper with that of iron, zinc, and calcium.
>
> Calcium now? No way. I'm getting tired. Calcium is regulated by the parathyroid... oh forget about it. I'm just going to say, no way.
>
> > A tangent, but wanted to mention it since all of these supplements are like a fine tuned orchestra and must be taken in balance for best results and safety reasons.
>
> We will agree on this point. Increasing zinc intakes to toxic levels, and then trying to compensate for that by increasing intakes of other minerals, or scheduling them at different times, is both dangerous and pointless. All you need do to prevent these difficulties is to keep the zinc intake within safe parameters, in the first place.
>
> > I tend to caution
>
> I don't see caution, here.
>
> > on the side of shying from the mentioned excitatory supplements to prevent mania in those where mania is a symptom.
> >
> > That's it really, Pat
>
> More, in Pat's next post.
>
> Lar
>
Hello,Boy, do I feel the fool for parroting a book....yes, I should have put what I stated in many quotes for much of the info. was from the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Balch and Balch. I've quoted them here before in the past with reference to the book and writers, but yes, I knew better-I'm sorry-I was trying to impress folks-in trying to impress I got made a fool of-a lessened hopefully learned.
So, what doses of supplements should I be taking so I know I'm on the safe side if Balch's book is to be disregarded? A world of information, but it's still a Barnum and Bailey world-a sucker born every minute. I take a multi/vit min. with zinc oxide 15mg and cupric oxide 2mg. About 3 times a week or less I take Tri-Zinc 50 (citrate, chelate, picolinate), by KAL. As for the book stating 10 to 1 ratio, then later it was 16.7 to 1, the later was for manic depression; I guess Balch is saying that bipolars sweat more or maybe eat more beans ;). Is this true concerning excessive sweating reduces zinc levels, as well as phytates found in beans and grains? Now I know I can take iron and zinc at the same time, but is it true I shouldn't take calcium with iron. I've often read calcium interferes with many drugs as well. So, I should disregard calcium in the claim made from Balch's book, about calcium having anything to do with zinc. The Balch's state, "Too much calcium can interfere with the absorption of zinc, and excess zinc can interfere with calcium absorption (especially if calcium intake is low. For most people, the best ratio between supplemental calcium and zinc is up to 2,500mg of calcium with 50 mg of zinc daily." Then they state "a hair analysis can determine the levels of these and other minerals in the body." Okay, maybe we can title this book, Prescription for Nutritional Death.
Yes, I understand that toxic amounts of metals can build up in the body without physical signs showing up until many years later. I wish I could remember the name of the book, but there is an interesting book you might be interested in written by a dentist from Norway I believe, who wrote a book about his theory that Napoleon Bonaparte was poisoned while on the Island of Helena. Speaking about Bonaparte, I already understood that arsenic is a trace mineral.
I'm sure you've written all the questions I am wanting answers to on this board, so I will simply type in your name and find helpful information that way. Thanks for your informative input on this board, and I appreciate all the correction and information you've given me, and the time you have taken, which I'm sure is precious. I'll stick to asking questions instead of giving info. on subjects I know nothing about which are many. You wanna talk about dog training-now that I know about : )
Sincerely,
Patient,
Posted by Larry Hoover on July 23, 2004, at 10:36:12
In reply to Re: Multi vit/min complex-Larry, posted by Patient on July 22, 2004, at 19:33:36
> Hello,
>
> Boy, do I feel the fool for parroting a book....yes, I should have put what I stated in many quotes for much of the info. was from the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Balch and Balch. I've quoted them here before in the past with reference to the book and writers, but yes, I knew better-I'm sorry-I was trying to impress folks-in trying to impress I got made a fool of-a lessened hopefully learned.Thank you for expressing your humility. I wasn't trying to humiliate you.
There's always a danger when you have only a single source for information. I've got that book somewhere, but with the Internet at my fingertips, I seldom use books much any more.
There is an astounding resource on-line, if you want to get an in-depth look at any nutrient (or any health issue, probably), but I have my favourite saved with a nutrient search term...
http://lab.nap.edu/nap-cgi/discover.cgi?term=tolerable%20daily%20intake&restric=NAPAll the books are readable full-text, and fully searchable.
> So, what doses of supplements should I be taking so I know I'm on the safe side if Balch's book is to be disregarded? A world of information, but it's still a Barnum and Bailey world-a sucker born every minute. I take a multi/vit min. with zinc oxide 15mg and cupric oxide 2mg. About 3 times a week or less I take Tri-Zinc 50 (citrate, chelate, picolinate), by KAL. As for the book stating 10 to 1 ratio, then later it was 16.7 to 1, the later was for manic depression; I guess Balch is saying that bipolars sweat more or maybe eat more beans ;).
Your regime is fine. The RDA is best thought of as weekly intake divided by seven. That said, I think our bodies are shaped by evolution. We are adventitious eaters. What that means is we eat what we find. Compare that to e.g. a bison on the Great Plains. Grass, and more grass.
Adventitious omnivores like humans might best benefit from nutrient intake that is pulsatile, i.e., which comes in waves. Water solubles, every day, but the other stuff might best come in bursts with rest periods. That way, you don't ever risk down-regulating the uptake mechanisms. They'll always be primed for uptake, because some days there isn't much for them to do.
> Is this true concerning excessive sweating reduces zinc levels, as well as phytates found in beans and grains?
I just wouldn't worry about them much. They're factors, but they're also factored in.
> Now I know I can take iron and zinc at the same time, but is it true I shouldn't take calcium with iron.
Calcium is so common in the diet that you are already taking calcium with iron. It would take a lot of effort to not do so.
> I've often read calcium interferes with many drugs as well.
Yes, but those drugs come with very specific instructions on how they must be taken. You'd know it, because the pharmacist would ensure you'd know all about it.
> So, I should disregard calcium in the claim made from Balch's book, about calcium having anything to do with zinc.
Not disregard. It's factored in, already. There are all sorts of interactions, and you can't avoid them altogether.
> The Balch's state, "Too much calcium can interfere with the absorption of zinc, and excess zinc can interfere with calcium absorption (especially if calcium intake is low. For most people, the best ratio between supplemental calcium and zinc is up to 2,500mg of calcium with 50 mg of zinc daily."
Look at the concentration ratio. Zinc will always be overwhelmed by calcium, unless there are zinc-specific uptake pumps.....tada, there are four zinc-specific uptake pumps (that we know of).
> Then they state "a hair analysis can determine the levels of these and other minerals in the body."
Hair analysis has *never* been validated as a means of assessing nutritional status. It can provide evidence of long-term metal toxicosis (as by mercury, for example), but that's not the same thing as assessing day-to-day mineral status.
> Okay, maybe we can title this book, Prescription for Nutritional Death.
No, that's an excessive response. It's generally a very useful book. I spoke to zinc intake because of its regulatory function. They were recommending too much zinc.
> Yes, I understand that toxic amounts of metals can build up in the body without physical signs showing up until many years later. I wish I could remember the name of the book, but there is an interesting book you might be interested in written by a dentist from Norway I believe, who wrote a book about his theory that Napoleon Bonaparte was poisoned while on the Island of Helena. Speaking about Bonaparte, I already understood that arsenic is a trace mineral.
Many people are surprised to learn that you need arsenic. Dose makes the poison.
> I'm sure you've written all the questions I am wanting answers to on this board, so I will simply type in your name and find helpful information that way.Don't be so sure. And, please don't be afraid to challenge anything I say. I'm not always right.
> Thanks for your informative input on this board, and I appreciate all the correction and information you've given me, and the time you have taken, which I'm sure is precious.
You're welcome. And you're welcome to more. As much as you want.
> I'll stick to asking questions instead of giving info. on subjects I know nothing about which are many. You wanna talk about dog training-now that I know about : )
I know nothing about dogs. Well, not nothing. Oh, never mind. ;-)
> Sincerely,
>
> Patient,Best,
Lar
Posted by Larry Hoover on August 14, 2004, at 15:54:29
In reply to Re: Multi vit/min complex-Larry, posted by Patient on July 22, 2004, at 19:33:36
> Boy, do I feel the fool for parroting a book....yes, I should have put what I stated in many quotes for much of the info. was from the book "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Balch and Balch.
I had an opportunity last week to glance through a copy of the above book, and I get the distinct impression I know which Balch wrote the book, and it wasn't the one with the M.D. For example, when discussing the acidity of blood, the book says it ought to be between pH 6.5 and 6.8. Unfortunately for Balch, that is a fatal finding, as blood pH is normally 7.35 to 7.45. It just makes me wonder how credible the rest of the material is, and leads me to my more general rule to check more than one reference.
Lar
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Alternative | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.