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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 19:06:42
Are there are any alternative supplements/meds that could boost motivation or deal with anhedonia?
Posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 19:10:03
In reply to Motivation problems and alternative meds, posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 19:06:42
n/m
Posted by DSCH on December 10, 2003, at 20:21:10
In reply to Motivation problems and alternative meds, posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 19:06:42
> Are there are any alternative supplements/meds that could boost motivation or deal with anhedonia?
Have you tried L-tyrosine or DLPA in concert with the B vitamins and vitamin C?
Posted by Ron Hill on December 10, 2003, at 20:54:33
In reply to Motivation problems and alternative meds, posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 19:06:42
Hi bntd,
> Are there are any alternative supplements/meds that could boost motivation or deal with anhedonia?
Two individual trials of two different supplements (SAM-e and ENADA NADH) each greatly helped my atypical depressive symptoms (anhedonia, anergy, low motivation, etc). However, in both cases the supplements ended up causing severe irritability after about five months of excellent results. Therefore, I have discontinued both.
My layman’s opinion is that when my serotonin/dopamine balance tilts toward low dopamine, I experience anhedonia, anergy, low motivation, etc. Conversely, when my dopamine gets out ahead of my serotonin, I get irritable and anxious. SAM-e and ENADA NADH are both dopaminergic and perhaps, over time they shift my serotonin/dopamine balance too far toward the dopamine side of the equation. I don’t have a clue why it would take five months for the shift to occur. In retrospect, I wonder if I could have solved the irritability side effect by adding tryptophan.
Do I remember correctly that you tried ENADA NADH? If so, did it help?
Another approach that might be worthy of consideration is to take tyrosine together with tryptophan. I blocked, copied, and pasted the following quote from this article: http://www.smartnutrition.info/JamesSouth-tryptophan.htm
<start quote>
Van Praag’s research has shown that for many people suffering depression, combining the amino-acid tyrosine with tryptophan works much better than taking tryptophan alone. These would be Young’s "apathetic inhibited" types, where both the serotonin tranquillity/ well being circuits and the "get up and go" vigorous action dopamine/ noradrenaline circuits are underactive.
<end quote>-- Ron
Posted by DSCH on December 10, 2003, at 21:51:48
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and alternative meds » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on December 10, 2003, at 20:54:33
> My layman’s opinion is that when my serotonin/dopamine balance tilts toward low dopamine, I experience anhedonia, anergy, low motivation, etc. Conversely, when my dopamine gets out ahead of my serotonin, I get irritable and anxious. SAM-e and ENADA NADH are both dopaminergic and perhaps, over time they shift my serotonin/dopamine balance too far toward the dopamine side of the equation. I don’t have a clue why it would take five months for the shift to occur. In retrospect, I wonder if I could have solved the irritability side effect by adding tryptophan.
Or maybe taking ENADA NADH and SJW concurrently?
BTW, I think Mg + TMG (+ methionine too in some cases, like vegans/vegetarians) might be in effect "SAM-e on a budget" for some people.
Posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 23:17:41
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and alternative meds » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on December 10, 2003, at 20:54:33
> Do I remember correctly that you tried ENADA NADH? If so, did it help?Yeah, I've used NADH for quite some time. It helped very well, but my suppy ended and I haven't ordered new one. But I'm looking for something that will boost my motivation (Enada NADH gave me the energy, but motivation was constantly low). I've read that Pramiracetam is a good smart-drug for motivation, but it's unobtainable.
What about Rhodiola Rosea?
I might try Enada NADH again, because this time I'm using dopaminergic Amisulpride, so the combination could be synergistic.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 11, 2003, at 11:55:59
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and alternative meds, posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 23:17:41
> What about Rhodiola Rosea?
Yeah, it might be worth a try. FWIW, I tried it and it made me irritable right from the get-go. But that's just me.
-- Ron
Posted by Ron Hill on December 13, 2003, at 14:57:34
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and alternative meds, posted by btnd on December 10, 2003, at 23:17:41
Brad (bntd)
> What about Rhodiola Rosea?
Your post caused me to become curious, so I took 205 mg of Rhodiola Rosea three days ago and again today. As I stated previously, when I took Rhodiola Rosea a few months ago it caused irritability. This time, however, it seems to provide a moderate boost in motivation and energy without any noticeable irritability (so far).
Why the different response this time, I ask myself? I wonder if it is because this time around I am taking 400 mg/day of l-theanine which releases GABA and lowers cortisol. Who knows? And the improvement in motivation and energy might not last, but I just wanted to pass on my anecdotal experience to you and say thanks for mentioning Rhodiola Rosea, and thereby, prompting me to re-try it.
-- Ron
Posted by btnd on December 14, 2003, at 5:20:33
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and Rhodiola Rosea » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on December 13, 2003, at 14:57:34
> Why the different response this time, I ask myself? I wonder if it is because this time around I am taking 400 mg/day of l-theanine which releases GABA and lowers cortisol. Who knows?
I have questions for you. I've tried digging the studies/abstracs and couldn't find any connection between L-Theanine and GABA. Every website mentions that it increases/releases GABA, but I've seen no studies showing that. Could you point them to me?
Also why such high dose of L-Theanine and what you are using it for? Just curious.. ;-)Take care
Posted by Ron Hill on December 14, 2003, at 22:42:06
In reply to Re: Motivation problems,Rhodiola Rosea,L-Theanine » Ron Hill, posted by btnd on December 14, 2003, at 5:20:33
Hi bntd,
> I have questions for you. I've tried digging the studies/abstracs and couldn't find any connection between L-Theanine and GABA. Every website mentions that it increases/releases GABA, but I've seen no studies showing that. Could you point them to me?
Have you seen the following document? Use the hotlinks associated with the references:
http://www.lifelinknet.com/siteResources/ArchivePages/Theanine-Sharpe.asp#fn22
Here is a quote from the above document regarding l-theanine and GABA release:
<start quote>
The relaxing effects of theanine partly depend on its ability to interact with the brain’s glutamatergic system. For example, theanine has been reported to induce the release of gamma-amino butyric acid (GABA), the main inhibitory neurotransmitter known for counterbalancing the stimulatory effects of glutamate (reference 22). Just as glutamate excites nerve cells into greater activity, GABA (which is produced in the brain from glutamate) quiets them down. Unfortunately, it’s difficult to supplement with GABA because it doesn’t cross the blood-brain barrier readily. Theanine, on the other hand, crosses the blood-brain barrier with relative ease. This makes theanine rather than GABA itself the supplement of choice for relieving anxiety and stress.
<end quote>I have provided a link to reference number 22 below. Unfortunately, the abstract is unavailable and, therefore, one would need to purchase a copy of the paper in order to examine and critic the arguments set forth in the document.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=4397636&dopt=Abstract
Anecdotally speaking, I feel the calming effect of increased GABA beginning roughly 15 – 20 minutes after I take a 200 mg capsule of l-theanine. The feeling reminds me of Neurontin.
> Also why such high dose of L-Theanine and what you are using it for? Just curious.. ;-)
Everything I’ve read leads me to believe that this stuff is very safe. Therefore, I have no concerns about taking 400 mg/day. In fact, every now and then I take 600 mg/day. As to the specific scenario that lead to my current dosing schedule, the capsules I bought are 200 mg each and the effectiveness of a one-capsule dose begins to wane after about five hours. Therefore, I take two (or sometimes three) doses in order to provide coverage for the entire day.
For the past month and a half or so, I’ve been taking l-theanine to treat my bipolar II related dysphoric mood states (i.e.; irritability, GRRRRRRRR!). So far it’s working great. Time will tell regarding its long-term efficacy. In addition to the nice GABA release, it also gives me some added motivation and energy (i.e.; improved dopamine release), and it supposedly lowers cortisol (which I believe to be true).
Have you seen my original post regarding l-theanine? If not, here is the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/alter/20031104/msgs/281539.html
-- Ron
Posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2003, at 6:14:10
In reply to Re: Motivation problems and alternative meds » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on December 10, 2003, at 20:54:33
> Another approach that might be worthy of consideration is to take tyrosine together with tryptophan. I blocked, copied, and pasted the following quote from this article: http://www.smartnutrition.info/JamesSouth-tryptophan.htm
>
> <start quote>
> Van Praag’s research has shown that for many people suffering depression, combining the amino-acid tyrosine with tryptophan works much better than taking tryptophan alone. These would be Young’s "apathetic inhibited" types, where both the serotonin tranquillity/ well being circuits and the "get up and go" vigorous action dopamine/ noradrenaline circuits are underactive.
> <end quote>
>
> -- RonRon, it isn't clear from this post if you're considering adding in some tryptophan, but theanine inhibits serotonin synthesis, so it may counterproductive for you. In contrast, theanine directly stimulates dopamine release.
Lar
Biosci Biotechnol Biochem. 1998 Apr;62(4):816-7.Theanine-induced reduction of brain serotonin concentration in rats.
Yokogoshi H, Mochizuki M, Saitoh K.
Laboratory of Nutritional Biochemistry, School of Food and Nutritional Sciences, University of Shizuoka, Japan. yokogosi@fnsl.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp
Following the administration of theanine, the brain tryptophan content significantly increased or tended to increase, but the contents of serotonin and 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5HIAA) decreased. The use of inhibitors of serotonin metabolism enable us to speculate that theanine reduced serotonin synthesis and also increased serotonin degradation in the brain.
Neurochem Res. 1998 May;23(5):667-73.Effect of theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, on brain monoamines and striatal dopamine release in conscious rats.
Yokogoshi H, Kobayashi M, Mochizuki M, Terashima T.
School of Food and Nutritional Sciences, The University of Shizuoka, Yada, Shizuoka, Japan. yokogosi@fns1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp
Theanine, r-glutamylethylamide, is one of the major components of amino acids in Japanese green tea. Effect of theanine on brain amino acids and monoamines, and the striatal release of dopamine (DA) was investigated. Determination of amino acids in the brain after the intragastric administration of theanine showed that theanine was incorporated into brain through blood-brain barrier via leucine-preferring transport system. The concentrations of norepinephrine, 3,4-dihydroxyphenylacetic acid (DOPAC) and 5-hydroxyindole acetic acid (5HIAA) in the brain regions were unaffected by the theanine administration except in striatum. Theanine administration caused significant increases in serotonin and/or DA concentrations in the brain, especially in striatum, hypothalamus and hippocampus. Direct administration of theanine into brain striatum by microinjection caused a significant increase of DA release in a dose-dependent manner. Microdialysis of brain with calcium-free Ringer buffer attenuated the theanine-induced DA release. Pretreatment with the Ringer buffer containing an antagonist of non-NMDA (N-methyl-D-aspartate) glutamate receptor, MK-801, for 1 hr did not change the significant increase of DA release induced by theanine. However, in the case of pretreatment with AP-5, (+/-)-2-amino-5-phosphonopentanoic acid; antagonist of NMDA glutamate receptor, the theanine-induced DA release from striatum was significantly inhibited. These results suggest that theanine might affect the metabolism and/or the release of some neurotransmitters in the brain, such as DA.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 15, 2003, at 13:55:25
In reply to Re: theanine and serotonin, dopamine » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2003, at 6:14:10
Larry,
Thanks much for posting these studies and thank you for your input.
> Ron, it isn't clear from this post if you're considering adding in some tryptophan, …
I might, but I’m reluctant to change anything right now because I currently have a combination that is working quite well. As I indicated earlier in this thread, I reintroduced 205 mg of Rhodiola rosea (taken every other day). It provides some motivation, some energy, and some zest for life (it feels dopaminergic in my brain). When I tried Rhodiola rosea several months ago it caused irritability within an hour of taking it. This time around, however, there is no irritability (so far) and I believe that the difference is due to the calming effects of the 400 mg/day of l-theanine that I am also taking.
> but theanine inhibits serotonin synthesis, so it may counterproductive for you.
I’m not convinced that l-theanine inhibits serotonin synthesis in all cases. The research seems to be split on this issue, and anecdotally speaking, the calming effects of l-theanine feels, at least in part, serotonergic in nature. I personally do not believe that all of the calming effects are due solely to increased GABA release.
Here is my “layman’s theory” of how l-theamine might be elevating my serotonin levels (beware however, my “layman theories” may be wrong and they are subject to change without notice): Cortisol is known to activate the liver enzyme tryptophan pyrrolase which breaks down tryptophan. Therefore, my current “theory” is that l-theanine indirectly elevates serotonin, at least in part, by reducing cortisol, leading to increased tryptophan levels and, subsequently, resulting in higher levels of serotonin.
> In contrast, theanine directly stimulates dopamine release.
Yes, I feel the dopaminergic effects in my brain, although it is only a moderate effect.
-- Ron
Posted by btnd on December 16, 2003, at 23:39:39
In reply to Re: L-Theanine and GABA Release » btnd, posted by Ron Hill on December 14, 2003, at 22:42:06
Hi Ron!
Thanks for the posts on L-Theanine and GABA.
> For the past month and a half or so, I?ve been taking l-theanine to treat my bipolar II related dysphoric mood states (i.e.; irritability, GRRRRRRRR!). So far it?s working great. Time will tell regarding its long-term efficacy. In addition to the nice GABA release, it also gives me some added motivation and energy (i.e.; improved dopamine release), and it supposedly lowers cortisol (which I believe to be true).
Yupp, I've tried L-Theanine. Although it does work for stress and anxiety (although sedates me more than Valium I'd say) - it doesn't improve my energy level and motivation. Still looking for something which could help me out with my motivation, confidence and slight apathy.
Posted by Ron Hill on December 19, 2003, at 22:58:12
In reply to Re: theanine and serotonin, dopamine » Ron Hill, posted by Larry Hoover on December 15, 2003, at 6:14:10
Larry
> ... theanine inhibits serotonin synthesis ...
Contrary to my original reply to your post, I now suspect that you (and the studies that you included in your post) might be right. I'm in a very deep depression and it might be due to the l-theanine.
How's things on your end of the wire? How's your sleep? Are you still taking the low dose of Remeron? Is it helping or hurting?
Thanks Larry.
-- Ron
Posted by johnj on December 22, 2003, at 11:51:15
In reply to Re: theanine and serotonin » Larry Hoover, posted by Ron Hill on December 19, 2003, at 22:58:12
HI Ron,
I tried l-theanine and it made me irritable. I only lasted 2 days on it. A non-depressed friend of mine felt no effect. Just my two cents worth. HOpe you feel better.
johnj
Posted by Ron Hill on December 23, 2003, at 21:57:09
In reply to Re: theanine and serotonin » Ron Hill, posted by johnj on December 22, 2003, at 11:51:15
> HI Ron,
>
> I tried l-theanine and it made me irritable. I only lasted 2 days on it. A non-depressed friend of mine felt no effect. Just my two cents worth. HOpe you feel better.
>
> johnj
--------------------Thanks John.
Posted by psychlover on December 31, 2003, at 19:26:58
In reply to Re: theanine and serotonin » johnj, posted by Ron Hill on December 23, 2003, at 21:57:09
I was wondering if I drink 5 cups or more of green tea a day if that is enough to counteract my SSRI?
Thanks!
This is the end of the thread.
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