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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 28. Go back in thread:
Posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 17:16:34
In reply to Re: Yohimbe/yohimbine » Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 11:17:50
> I've run out of Pycnogenol, and I'll need to wait for some more money to come in before I get some more. That is more for long term health benefit than anything else. Then there is the complete multi-vitamin/mineral which should last me several more days.
Money came in today! Yay! I'm going to give Nature's Way Masquelier's Tru-OPCs a try as it seems to be the most cost effective way to get OPCs around here. Dr. Amen says some ADDers are content with OPCs alone, though I haven't noticed it boosting my ability to focus at all. However, I figure it's a prudent form of long term investment in the body to provide it with good antioxidants (I believe William Osler said "You are only as old as your arteries"). It might also be a prudent thing to take along with the Yohimbe to help the liver out.
Posted by Francesco on October 3, 2003, at 7:27:05
In reply to Re: Yohimbe/yohimbine, posted by DSCH on October 2, 2003, at 17:16:34
Is there the "Pstims vs Supplements" asnwer somewhere ? I'm messing up my brain with all these re-directs ! : ) And it doesn't need to be messed up further ;-)
(anyway: Pstims=psycobabble Supplements=alternative
so ... this is a puzzle even for Dr. Bob ;-)
Posted by DSCH on October 3, 2003, at 8:49:14
In reply to Re: Yohimbe/yohimbine, posted by Francesco on October 3, 2003, at 7:27:05
> Is there the "Pstims vs Supplements" asnwer somewhere ? I'm messing up my brain with all these re-directs ! : ) And it doesn't need to be messed up further ;-)
>
> (anyway: Pstims=psycobabble Supplements=alternative
> so ... this is a puzzle even for Dr. Bob ;-)OK, here's the text from your post in the thread that TheOutsider started...
"Hi again, what do you mean with "some success" with supplements ? Could you rate this success compared with the effect of stims ? (for ex. stims: 7/10 supplements: 5/10 ;-)
May I ask you what was the main cause that brought you to quit stims ?
about Strattera ... of course it's not yet available in Italy (don't know about UK) but a p-doc told me that within two months there will be a new ADHD med out in our medioeval country ;-) could be Strattera ? I hope it. (considering where I live maybe the new med is Imipramine ;-)"I can't really put it into such simplistic terms as X/10. The process I went through was non-linear and at any time what I take I believe makes some essential contribution. When I no longer believe that to be the case, I will drop it from the combo and see if its absence does anything.
I started out with 37.5 mg pemoline bid and was on it for a few weeks before I started taking B-50 vitamin B complex and DLPA without the exlicit advice of my doctor (he doesn't believe in dietary deficencies). I had this pressured feeling in my head more than a boost from the pemoline; my hypothesis was that my neural vessicles couldn't respond fully to what was being asked of them (you can't pump water from a dry well). So I loaded up on the precursors to dopamine and norepinepherine and got megadoses of B3 and B6 as they assist the enzymatic activity that accomplishes neurotransmitter synthesis.
Late on the second full day of pemoline + DLPA + B complex, the rising irritation I had been feeling culminated in the wonderful experience of my head clearing from static that I had grown accustomed to as normal. Listen to your favortie radio station for months with your radio tuned somewhat badly and then one day tune it spot on. That's the best analogy I can make for that whole experience.
However, after that things were quite unstable. I would go almost catatonic after meals. My body didn't feel so great to actually use, but I had more energy and motivation to do things.
Just a few days later I crashed hard after eating cereal I had dumped too much sugar on, and I immediately considered reactive hypoglycemia to be the problem and decided to try the Atkins diet. After that meals were less of a problem, but occasionally I still felt quite drowsy after them.
I had a hypomanic episode followed by a whole-body change in proprioception for the better a few days after that. Then following that for several days I noticed I was quite bouncy, optimistic, rapid in thought, but lacking the focus and short term memory to keep up with all the energy and speed (analogy: overclocked CPU exceeding the capacity of the motherboard!). I looked back over my treatment journal and decided to keep vitamins (I believe it was B6 rather than B complex at that point) and DLPA but drop the pemoline. That was on 8/16 and I haven't taken any more of it since then.
I started drinking roughly three cups of licorice root tea a day starting soon after that and I noticed it helped me with how I felt when I wake up and when I wake up (sometimes as early as 4-4:30, usually 6-7, sometimes a bit latter). I have also become less senstive to post meal drowsiness. Having done a bout of blood glucose monitoring I can say I am not a reactive hypoglycemic, and my positive response to the tea is perhaps evidence my neuroendocrine system needed rebalancing. I stopped with the tea when my supply ran out after about a month, I've bought more but have only had a single cup since then. You shouldn't use it heavily every day for long stretches of time or you could develop high blood pressure.
When I ran out of DLPA and didn't have the money to get more I had a major backslide in focus. Getting soy protein powder brought me back, but I've also had some bouts of pesimissim and anger regarding events that ocurred quite some time ago that come and go and the focus, motivation, and energy isn't quite up to where it was when I was on pemoline, B6, and DLPA. That's why I've decided to try yohimbe bark tincture for the technical reasons discussed in earlier posts.
So as you can see I am doing quite a bit of adjusting on the fly so to speak with temporary money shortages occasionally throwing a wrench into the works. It's quite a complicated affair and I am still learning as I go.
Let me cap this off with quote I shared with people over on Psycho-Social-Babble...
"Philosophy is like trying to open a safe with a combination lock: each little adjustment of the dials seems to achieve nothing, only when everything is in place does the door open."
-Ludwig Wittgenstein
Fortunately I can notice positive things happening when I get close to and negative things when I go further off the right combination. :-)
Posted by DSCH on October 3, 2003, at 11:38:52
In reply to On the question of relative contributions » Francesco , posted by DSCH on October 3, 2003, at 8:49:14
Oh, I forgot about the inositol. I thought it was doing something in mid August, but I no longer believe that to be the case now and I have dropped it from my regimen.
Posted by DSCH on October 3, 2003, at 15:22:02
In reply to Yohimbe/yohimbine, posted by DSCH on October 1, 2003, at 13:19:20
A different take (not MAOI):
http://www.yohimbe.org/chairmanmao.htmThey note that prescription sexual dysfunction mediciations with yohimbine do NOT come with the heavy array of warnings that MAOIs do.
OK, suppose its another compound in the bark...
Tyramine is pervasive enough in the diet (as those of you who take MAOIs are certainly aware of) that one would expect incidences of hypertensive crisis from people using yohimbe below toxic dose who then consumed tyramine. Have any been documented? If so, why then would the extract still be available OTC?
For yohimbe "The Physicians' Desk Reference for Herbal Medicines" (1998 ed., p. 1018-9) gives no warnings in regards to dietary tyramine and medications like DXM that are contraindicated with MAOIs.
Posted by matthhhh on October 4, 2003, at 10:18:20
In reply to Yohimbe: weak MAOI or not?, posted by DSCH on October 3, 2003, at 15:22:02
Does anyone here use yohimbe for social phobia, confidence and energy? it seems to be similar to ephedrine and has helped me in these areas like magic. Im concerned with taking it long term though. Any thoughts?
Posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 13:04:27
In reply to Re: Yohimbe: weak MAOI or not?, posted by matthhhh on October 4, 2003, at 10:18:20
> Does anyone here use yohimbe for social phobia, confidence and energy? it seems to be similar to ephedrine and has helped me in these areas like magic. Im concerned with taking it long term though. Any thoughts?
Which do you take or have taken? Yohimbe or ephedrine? Do you combine it with other supplements or medications?
As long as your dosage is remaining steady and your blood pressure doesn't start creeping up or down then my guess is it shouldn't be very harmful. There's the potential for tolerance to build up, and there I believe the answer would be drug holidays.
I've gone back to grad student mode and photocopied references on yohimbe and others (licorice and St. John's Wort) and will be posting quotes soon for these.
I've noticed carb cravings and sinking mood in the evenings and I'm beginning to consider adding SJW to the cocktail.
Posted by matthhhh on October 4, 2003, at 18:40:34
In reply to Re: Yohimbe: weak MAOI or not? » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 13:04:27
Yes ive taken yohimbe and it alleviated my symptoms. Have u taken ephedrine?
By the way, what do u take yohimbe for?
Posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 19:23:37
In reply to Re: Yohimbe: weak MAOI or not?, posted by matthhhh on October 4, 2003, at 18:40:34
> Yes ive taken yohimbe and it alleviated my symptoms. Have u taken ephedrine?
No, I have never used ephedrine.
> By the way, what do u take yohimbe for?
From my first post...
"I have been a little dismayed at the amount of amino acids I need to consume to stay focused, which leads me to believe something is wrong in my NE regulation or that it is getting overactively oxidized in my brain. I still have the feeling of fighting something from day-to-day that I would like a little more help with."Basically: inattentive-type ADD. However, lately I felt something more like depression creeping back in during the evenings. So I bought some tincture of St. John's Wort to start that up when I feel like I have the yohimbe "dialed in". I am not taking it at the moment so I don't complicate the picture unnecessarily.
Today I bumped my daily dosage of the yohimbe tincture to 75 drops (25, thrice a day) from 60. 90-120 is the range recommended on the bottle (it's from Herb Pharm) so I am starting out rather conservative in case I am sensitive or allergic to it. I felt some irritability today which leads me to believe I am approaching the threshold of the real stimulant effects. On Monday if things go well I will bump it up to 90.
I am also taking per day:
3 Solaray Twice-Daily Fe-Free Energy Formula Multivitman and Mineral (gotta get your A, B's, C, and E!)
6 GNC DLPA 400 (1200 mg D-phenylalanine, 1200 mg L-phenylalanine)(may try increasing this sometime up to 9 if I feel the yohimbe needs more assistance with precursor loading)
6 Nature's Way Tru-OPCs (450 mg of OPCs)(will take this down to the maintenance dose of 225 mg in two weeks time as recommended on the bottle)
Posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 7:34:41
In reply to The Plan » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 19:23:37
Ive tried all the herbal supplements too. DLPA seemed to be the one that was the most activating for me i would take 3-4 500mg tabs 2 * per day. St. Johns wort didnt do anything for me. Do u find that the brand or type of SJW that you are taking is superior to others? ie do u think it would work if the other sfuff didnt?
I think i might have ADD inattentive type as well. I find it hard to stay focused in a conversation, my mind goes blank or trails off. How about u?
Posted by DSCH on October 5, 2003, at 9:36:37
In reply to Re: The Plan, posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 7:34:41
> Ive tried all the herbal supplements too. DLPA seemed to be the one that was the most activating for me i would take 3-4 500mg tabs 2 * per day. St. Johns wort didnt do anything for me. Do u find that the brand or type of SJW that you are taking is superior to others? ie do u think it would work if the other sfuff didnt?
I haven't even started the SJW tincture I bought yesterday. I have never taken SJW of any form before. My hypothesis is that my serotonin levels were excessive as late as mid-August and going back for several years. It began to drop when I started on Atkins, perhaps over the past couple weeks it has finally dropped to the point where I could use some support as I still need to lose weight and must resist carbohydrate cravings to stay on track. When I took Paxil in 2001 and Prozac (along with Provigil) in 2002 I believe the results where complacency and worsened ADD. I tried SAMe back in 2001-2 and TMG last month and neither really did much for me. However I will keep them all in the back of my mind. This whole process is very dynamic and non-linear and the "endpoint", if there really is one for me, may not necessarily be a static routine.
> I think i might have ADD inattentive type as well. I find it hard to stay focused in a conversation, my mind goes blank or trails off. How about u?
It's about staying on task and being productive for more than a day or so without being pulled off in a new direction. Also keeping up with such things as chores, bills, and paperwork.
Limbic ADD also seemed a good fit for me at times. As has "avoidant personality disorder", maybe a touch of "schizoid personality disorder", and then there's "delayed sleep phase disorder". Much of these I think get wrapped up into what someone referred to as "ADHD Burnout" (see http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20020103/msgs/89263.html ) which appears a lot like what the alternative crowd calls "adrenal exhaustion". In my case, licorice root tea was excellent for getting at this (3 cups a day for about a month). I'm having a cup as I write this (more just to have a morning cuppa (as the Brits say)) and that will do me for the day; you can develop hypertension if you overdo it. That's particularly possible when in combination with something like yohimbe.
Posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 10:33:59
In reply to SJW and licorice; syndromal dynamics » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 5, 2003, at 9:36:37
i tried sam e and TMG too, neither did anything for me. Also tried 5htp with no response and now thinking about tryptophan which is supposed to be superior than 5htp. Have u ever tried either of these?
Posted by DSCH on October 5, 2003, at 10:48:51
In reply to Re: SJW and licorice; syndromal dynamics, posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 10:33:59
> i tried sam e and TMG too, neither did anything for me.
I guess you would probably not rate as a classic histadelic (aka under-methylated) under the catagorization developed by the orthomolecular psychiatrist Carl Pfeiffer.
http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/subtypes.htm
Ever have trouble with allergies?
>Also tried 5htp with no response and now thinking about tryptophan which is supposed to be superior than 5htp. Have u ever tried either of these?
No. For what reasons did you try 5-HTP and are considering tryptophan? (I don't know very much about these two yet, but my impression is that if one didn't work neither will the other probably, but don't take that too seriously)
Posted by DSCH on October 5, 2003, at 10:57:30
In reply to Re: The Plan, posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 7:34:41
> I think i might have ADD inattentive type as well. I find it hard to stay focused in a conversation, my mind goes blank or trails off. How about u?
You might find these sites helpful then...
http://www.amenclinic.com/ac/addtests/adult1.asp
http://www.amenclinic.com/ac/addtests/brain_system_checklist.asp
Posted by matthhhh on October 5, 2003, at 12:44:55
In reply to 5-HTP and tryptophan » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 5, 2003, at 10:48:51
no i dont have any allergies.
5htp and tryptophan are the precursors for producing serotonin. TMG and sam e are also known to increase serotonin.
Posted by DSCH on October 6, 2003, at 8:05:23
In reply to The Plan » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 19:23:37
> > Yes ive taken yohimbe and it alleviated my symptoms. Have u taken ephedrine?
>
> No, I have never used ephedrine.
>
> > By the way, what do u take yohimbe for?
>
> From my first post...
> "I have been a little dismayed at the amount of amino acids I need to consume to stay focused, which leads me to believe something is wrong in my NE regulation or that it is getting overactively oxidized in my brain. I still have the feeling of fighting something from day-to-day that I would like a little more help with."
>
> Basically: inattentive-type ADD. However, lately I felt something more like depression creeping back in during the evenings. So I bought some tincture of St. John's Wort to start that up when I feel like I have the yohimbe "dialed in". I am not taking it at the moment so I don't complicate the picture unnecessarily.
>
> Today I bumped my daily dosage of the yohimbe tincture to 75 drops (25, thrice a day) from 60. 90-120 is the range recommended on the bottle (it's from Herb Pharm) so I am starting out rather conservative in case I am sensitive or allergic to it. I felt some irritability today which leads me to believe I am approaching the threshold of the real stimulant effects. On Monday if things go well I will bump it up to 90.
>
> I am also taking per day:
>
> 3 Solaray Twice-Daily Fe-Free Energy Formula Multivitman and Mineral (gotta get your A, B's, C, and E!)
>
> 6 GNC DLPA 400 (1200 mg D-phenylalanine, 1200 mg L-phenylalanine)(may try increasing this sometime up to 9 if I feel the yohimbe needs more assistance with precursor loading)
>
> 6 Nature's Way Tru-OPCs (450 mg of OPCs)(will take this down to the maintenance dose of 225 mg in two weeks time as recommended on the bottle)It's Monday. :-) 90 drops of the yohimbe tincture today in three 30-drop doses prior to meals.
And if anything I am less consumed by sexual thoughts than before. Go figure!
Posted by DSCH on October 7, 2003, at 11:37:04
In reply to Re: The Plan, posted by DSCH on October 6, 2003, at 8:05:23
I am beginning my second day at 90 drops/day of Herb Pharm's yohimbe tincture (liquid alcohol extract) and it is smooth sailing so far. Last night I was not revisited by the drop in energy, mood, and self-confidence that had become somewhat over the past week. I do not notice anything yet that I would attribute to being a negative side-effect of the yohimbe.
My sexual interests have DROPPED counter to yohimbe's use and reputation as an aphrodisiac, which is actually a very good thing in my case as they have a tendency to run rampant (and lack the best channel of expression right now, me being single w/o gf). I think linkadge's notion that sex drive can correlate *inversely* with self-preceptions of well being is true in my case.
I will stay at 90 drops/day for a week and see where I stand. If things are steady I will very gradually increase to see how much more boost there is before peripheral stimulation and/or side effects become unwelcome. I intend eventually to take periodic "herb holidays" to combat the buildup of tolerance.
If these evening depressions do not make a reappearance I will drop the idea of adding on SJW and instead consider trying out something else that I think might complement yohimbe, depending on what my research turns up.
I have been drinking a little more licorice tea lately as well. Perhaps I should quit it for the rest of this week so as to make a clear case for yohimbe being a good actor.
Posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 9:08:28
In reply to The Plan » matthhhh, posted by DSCH on October 4, 2003, at 19:23:37
> From my first post...
> "I have been a little dismayed at the amount of amino acids I need to consume to stay focused, which leads me to believe something is wrong in my NE regulation or that it is getting overactively oxidized in my brain. I still have the feeling of fighting something from day-to-day that I would like a little more help with."Have you considered that the problem might arise from poor digestion of proteins, necessitating consumption of pre-digested protein (i.e. free amino acids)?
Methyl donors (TMG and B-12) are both necessary for hydrochloric acid formation and release. Confirmatory, but circumstantial, evidence for this condition would be a tendency towards dyspepsia (upset stomach), or heartburn.
You may also find benefit from the use of proteolytic enzymes. There are many products out there, some analogs of your own proteases, others from vegetable sources. Of the latter, I prefer bromelain over e.g. papain, and bromelain also has anti-inflammatory activity, systemically.
Lar
Posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 11:48:41
In reply to Re: The Plan » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 9:08:28
> > From my first post...
> > "I have been a little dismayed at the amount of amino acids I need to consume to stay focused, which leads me to believe something is wrong in my NE regulation or that it is getting overactively oxidized in my brain. I still have the feeling of fighting something from day-to-day that I would like a little more help with."
>
> Have you considered that the problem might arise from poor digestion of proteins, necessitating consumption of pre-digested protein (i.e. free amino acids)?Yes, the thought had ocurred to me.
> Methyl donors (TMG and B-12) are both necessary for hydrochloric acid formation and release. Confirmatory, but circumstantial, evidence for this condition would be a tendency towards dyspepsia (upset stomach), or heartburn.
I am getting 75mg a day of cyanocobalamin in my multivitamin/mineral (powder-containing capsules)(1250% US RDA).
TMG only gave me a mild boost in self-confidence with a dose of 1500 mg CONCURRENT with my drinking protein powder. It did nothing when I wasn't taking some form of simple aminos.
Heartburn and upset stomach only trouble me when I eat way too much (normally associated with holiday meals) or too much too close to bedtime (postural?).
> You may also find benefit from the use of proteolytic enzymes. There are many products out there, some analogs of your own proteases, others from vegetable sources. Of the latter, I prefer bromelain over e.g. papain, and bromelain also has anti-inflammatory activity, systemically.
Thanks for these suggestions.
Does my reaction to TMG ring any bells?
Posted by jparsell82 on October 9, 2003, at 17:22:07
In reply to Protein » Larry Hoover, posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 11:48:41
Have you tried the Amino Fuel liquid(not tabs) from Twinlab. It's got good noticable effects, for me atleast.
Posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 17:32:18
In reply to Tried Amino Fuel?, posted by jparsell82 on October 9, 2003, at 17:22:07
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/social/20031002/msgs/267409.html
Today I find myself wanting in the self-confidence departement.
Ideas? Comments? Whatever?
Posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 19:42:27
In reply to Started a thread over on Social..., posted by DSCH on October 9, 2003, at 17:32:18
Yohimbine serum half life is a fleeting "0.60 +/- 0.26 hours". And you thought methylphenidate was a quickie at 2.9 hrs.!
I'm going to cut my remaining pemoline pills in half and try 18.75 mg tid as opposed to 37.5 mg bid. That should at least give me smoother energy, well-being, and optimism (if not memory and focus) until I can make other arrangements.
Thanks for the amino fuel suggestion, jp.
At this point I am narrowing my supplement focus down to magnesium, amino acids, and enzymes as suggested by Larry while I put more hopes in finding a pdoc well versed on ADD.
Posted by EscherDementian on October 10, 2003, at 11:04:55
In reply to Re: The Plan » DSCH, posted by Larry Hoover on October 9, 2003, at 9:08:28
> Have you considered that the problem might arise from poor digestion of proteins, necessitating consumption of pre-digested protein (i.e. free amino acids)?
>
> You may also find benefit from the use of proteolytic enzymes. There are many products out there, some analogs of your own proteases, others from vegetable sources. Of the latter, I prefer bromelain over e.g. papain, and bromelain also has anti-inflammatory activity, systemically.(For what my meager contribution might be worth)
i use another 'find' from TraderJoe's:
Papaya & Pineapple Enzymes
1 tab=
bromelain 45mg
papain 30mg
mycozyme 30mgi usually take one or two after a reasonable amount of protien. (Or sometimes 'heartburn', too).
Works for me.Escher
Posted by DSCH on October 10, 2003, at 11:26:43
In reply to Re: The PlanDSCH, posted by EscherDementian on October 10, 2003, at 11:04:55
> > Have you considered that the problem might arise from poor digestion of proteins, necessitating consumption of pre-digested protein (i.e. free amino acids)?
> >
> > You may also find benefit from the use of proteolytic enzymes. There are many products out there, some analogs of your own proteases, others from vegetable sources. Of the latter, I prefer bromelain over e.g. papain, and bromelain also has anti-inflammatory activity, systemically.
>
>
>
> (For what my meager contribution might be worth)
> i use another 'find' from TraderJoe's:
> Papaya & Pineapple Enzymes
> 1 tab=
> bromelain 45mg
> papain 30mg
> mycozyme 30mg
>
> i usually take one or two after a reasonable amount of protien. (Or sometimes 'heartburn', too).
> Works for me.
>
> EscherThanks, if it's less expensive it would be nice to be able to wean myself from the amino acid supplements given that one is already paying for the protein in *food*!
Posted by jparsell82 on October 10, 2003, at 15:53:43
In reply to proteolytic enzymes » EscherDementian, posted by DSCH on October 10, 2003, at 11:26:43
Once again, about the Amino Fuel(liquid). It's a thick sugary liquid that tastes really good. I seriously can tell a difference after I take this. Absorbtion of the amino acids is superior I believe with this formula. You really should give it a try. Anyways, good luck!
This is the end of the thread.
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