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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 8 of 8. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jmackie on September 20, 2003, at 2:01:26
I have an atypical depression (TRD) all my adult life. Been on about a dozen meds, and only responded well (though for only a few months) to Nardil. Now I wonder how to begin exploring the world of supplements. I have read that LDPA, 5HT, Tyrosine, B Complex (especially B6) can all be helpful. What should I try first, and what brands are best?
I have tried SJW with no benefit.
Much thanks in advance.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 8:26:44
In reply to Where do I start? ATYPICAL, posted by jmackie on September 20, 2003, at 2:01:26
> I have an atypical depression (TRD) all my adult life. Been on about a dozen meds, and only responded well (though for only a few months) to Nardil. Now I wonder how to begin exploring the world of supplements. I have read that LDPA, 5HT, Tyrosine, B Complex (especially B6) can all be helpful. What should I try first, and what brands are best?
> I have tried SJW with no benefit.
> Much thanks in advance.I hope Ron Hill contributes to this thread, as he also has long-standing atypical depressive symptoms.
The B-vitamins are a core supplement, because depression is stressful, and the B's are antistress. You'll often see B-complex marketed in terms of dose, like B-50, B-100, that sort of thing. Walmart has B-150 at a good price, for example. B's are cheap. You vitually cannot hurt yourself with them. They can be activating, though, so take them in the morning. Dose? B-100 three times a day isn't unreasonable. Your urine will stain bright yellow, but that's just evidence that the stuff got into your blood at high concentration.
Extra B-12 can be a godsend. 1,000 mcg/day.
Niacinamide has a calming influence (500-2,000 mg/day). NADH is energizing. Dose can be 10 mg/day initially, but you soon need far less, as if you "fill up the well". I now use 5 mg/week as a maintenance dose.
Minerals:
Zinc: 30-50 mg/day
Selenium: 200 mcg/day
Magnesium: 200-500 mg/day, in divided doses. Makes some people sleepy, so you may want to take this at bedtime.Essential fatty acids:
Fish oil: 2,000-10,000 mg/day. Everybody finds a dose they tolerate, but you may want to start at the lower dose, and raise it gradually. Some people are intolerant at first. Take it with your largest meal of the day.
GLA (as evening primrose, or borage, or black currant oil): 500-1000 mg/day. Take with meal.Amino acids:
Tyrosine and DLPA (d-,l-phenylalanine) are dopamine and norepinephrine precursors, so they contribute to attention and motivation. Worth trying, in the a.m., on an empty stomach. Dose up to 5,000 mg, but I'd start at 1,000 or 2,000.
5-HTP: Not my first choice for a serotonin precursor, but a lot of people like it. Dose 50-200 mg/day.
Tryptophan: Less likely to cause side-effects, IMHO, but far less potent than 5-HTP. Dose up to 5 grams, in p.m. before bed.That's a lot of stuff, I know. You're best off introducing supplements individually, so you get a sense of what they do for you/to you. I'd start with B-complex and fish oil simultaneously, and add in the minerals over the first few weeks. Then try the individual B's I mentioned, and/or the aminos, one at a time.
Lar
Posted by jmackie on September 21, 2003, at 16:21:34
In reply to Re: Where do I start? ATYPICAL » jmackie, posted by Larry Hoover on September 20, 2003, at 8:26:44
Posted by jmackie on September 23, 2003, at 17:50:33
In reply to Thanks, Larry: I'll update on my supp. trial. (nm), posted by jmackie on September 21, 2003, at 16:21:34
I have been on some suggested supplements for two days now, and I must say I think (knock wood) that I feel less terrible. I am still working up to the max doses recommended by Larry Hoover earlier in this thread.
I am also taking Remeron 45 mg and zyprexa 10 mg. I have received no benefit from these meds and will probably switch in the next week or two.
Question: My research has not revealed any potential danger of taking the amino acides DLPA and L-tyrosine with the Remeron. Is there a potential problem? I suspect that Tryptophan or 5HT could produce serotonin syndrome, but am not taking either.
Also, I may go back on to Nardil after an 18-month holiday. Are amino acids dangerous with this MAOI? I know DLPA or L-phenylalanine can augment MAOIs. What about the Tyrosine or Tryptophan/5HT?For those interested, I'm taking:
B-complex
B-16
B-12
Fish Oil
Evening Primrose
DLPA
Tyrosine
Because I'm Canadian, I had to make a quick trick to the US to pick up the DLPA and Tyrosine.Will keep posing my progress. Many thanks to Larry Hoover.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 27, 2003, at 5:07:39
In reply to I think this might be working! Contra-Questions, posted by jmackie on September 23, 2003, at 17:50:33
> I have been on some suggested supplements for two days now, and I must say I think (knock wood) that I feel less terrible. I am still working up to the max doses recommended by Larry Hoover earlier in this thread.
Please, keep your expectations under check. Taking supps is not like taking medication, in that there is seldom a profound effect. Gradual shifts towards better functioning are more common.
> I am also taking Remeron 45 mg and zyprexa 10 mg. I have received no benefit from these meds and will probably switch in the next week or two.
It may be that my own biochemistry is unusual (no, I think it really is), but I had absolutely horrid withdrawals from Remeron. My pdoc said it was safe to cut it, cold turkey, and I, being the turkey, followed his advice. Very bad idea.
> Question: My research has not revealed any potential danger of taking the amino acides DLPA and L-tyrosine with the Remeron. Is there a potential problem?
I could not conceive of any risk in doing so.
> I suspect that Tryptophan or 5HT could produce serotonin syndrome, but am not taking either.
Remeron is considered to be a safe drug to take with SSRIs, so I cannot think of a risk arising from supplementing with serotonin precursors, in reasonable amounts.
> Also, I may go back on to Nardil after an 18-month holiday. Are amino acids dangerous with this MAOI? I know DLPA or L-phenylalanine can augment MAOIs. What about the Tyrosine or Tryptophan/5HT?
Dose makes the poison. In other words, your personal biochemistry will determine just how much is safe. You could supplement with aminos, and safely, up to your dose threshold (which can only be determined by careful experiment).
> For those interested, I'm taking:
> B-complex
> B-16
> B-12
> Fish Oil
> Evening Primrose
> DLPA
> Tyrosine
> Because I'm Canadian, I had to make a quick trick to the US to pick up the DLPA and Tyrosine.
>
> Will keep posing my progress. Many thanks to Larry Hoover.Many your welcomes.
Keep us posted.
Lar
Posted by shar on September 27, 2003, at 22:50:26
In reply to Re: I think this might be working! Contra-Questions » jmackie, posted by Larry Hoover on September 27, 2003, at 5:07:39
I'm getting more interested in supplements, and I'm wondering if there is any need to worry about negative interactions among them? For example, I'm interested in supps for help with depression (treatment resistant), but also help with brain function, and some related to hormones. Maybe other areas as well (targeting different organs with herbs for improved function...for example gall bladder).
Is there any way to find out (other than the hard way--experience) if one supp or herb will cancel out another, or a combo that can cause a bad reaction, that type of thing?
Thanks for any help.
Shar
Posted by Sabina on September 28, 2003, at 2:22:27
In reply to Checking Safety of Supp. Combos in General?, posted by shar on September 27, 2003, at 22:50:26
i've found this site to be very useful.
http://www.drugdigest.org/DD/Interaction/ChooseDrugs
it's not got almost everything imaginable in the database, including tons of herbs, prescription drugs, inhalants, topicals, plus an option for food and alcohol interactions. i hope this helps you.
Posted by shar on September 29, 2003, at 13:22:23
In reply to Re: interaction database » shar, posted by Sabina on September 28, 2003, at 2:22:27
This is the end of the thread.
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