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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by oeps7 on September 13, 2003, at 7:23:29
It seems like this works for some of you. Is there any weight gain with this? I am thinking of trying this route, I just came off effexor xr. I tried flaxseed oil but that didn't seem to do anything. I have also tried yoga, meditation, cognitive therapy, subliminal tapes, etc. Right now I seem to feel better with no therapy. This website seems to help me more than anything has.
Mary
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 8:08:37
In reply to omega 3, posted by oeps7 on September 13, 2003, at 7:23:29
> It seems like this works for some of you. Is there any weight gain with this?
Each gram of fish oil contains 9 calories. That is trivial, in the greater scheme of things. Moreover, omega-3 *deficiency* is associated with weight gain, so taking fish oil may promote weight loss.
> I am thinking of trying this route, I just came off effexor xr. I tried flaxseed oil but that didn't seem to do anything.
Even if fish oil doesn't obviously affect your mood, I can guarantee, absolutely guarantee, that it will be good for your heart, arteries, insulin sensitivity, and will help prevent Alzheimer's disease. Mood effects would be bonus.
> I have also tried yoga, meditation, cognitive therapy, subliminal tapes, etc. Right now I seem to feel better with no therapy. This website seems to help me more than anything has.
> MaryIn my opinion, there is no substitute for fish oil (except eating fish itself).
I've pasted in a few abstracts here, and they probably have "more information than I wanted to know", but they do tell the tale; flax oil is not efficiently converted to the fatty acids found in fish oil, particularly by males. From the first abstract:
"Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA (alpha-linolenic acid, the one if flax oil)to DHA (docosahexaenoic acid, one of the two in fish oil)was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals."
Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):355-64Eicosapentaenoic and docosapentaenoic acids are the principal products of alpha-linolenic acid metabolism in young men*.
Burdge GC, Jones AE, Wootton SA.
Institute of Human Nutrition, Level C, West Wing, Southampton General Hospital, Tremona Road, Southampton, SO16 6YD, UK.
The capacity for conversion of alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to n-3 long-chain polyunsaturated fatty acids was investigated in young men. Emulsified [U-13C]ALNA was administered orally with a mixed meal to six subjects consuming their habitual diet. Approximately 33 % of administered [13C]ALNA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h. [13C]ALNA was mobilised from enterocytes primarily as chylomicron triacylglycerol (TAG), while [13C]ALNA incorporation into plasma phosphatidylcholine (PC) occurred later, probably by the liver. The time scale of conversion of [13C]ALNA to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) suggested that the liver was the principal site of ALNA desaturation and elongation, although there was some indication of EPA and DPA synthesis by enterocytes. [13C]EPA and [13C]DPA concentrations were greater in plasma PC than TAG, and were present in the circulation for up to 7 and 14 d, respectively. There was no apparent 13C enrichment of docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) in plasma PC, TAG or non-esterified fatty acids at any time point measured up to 21 d. This pattern of 13C n-3 fatty acid labelling suggests inhibition or restriction of DHA synthesis downstream of DPA. [13C]ALNA, [13C]EPA and [13C]DPA were incorporated into erythrocyte PC, but not phosphatidylethanolamine, suggesting uptake of intact plasma PC molecules from lipoproteins into erythrocyte membranes. Since the capacity of adult males to convert ALNA to DHA was either very low or absent, uptake of pre-formed DHA from the diet may be critical for maintaining adequate
membrane DHA concentrations in these individuals.Br J Nutr 2002 Oct;88(4):411-421
Conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to eicosapentaenoic, docosapentaenoic and docosahexaenoic acids in young women.
Burdge GC, Wootton SA.
Institute of Human Nutrition, University of Southampton, Southampton, UK.
The extent to which women of reproductive age are able to convert the n-3 fatty acid alpha-linolenic acid (ALNA) to eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), docosapentaenoic acid (DPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) was investigated in vivo by measuring the concentrations of labelled fatty acids in plasma for 21 d following the ingestion of [U-13C]ALNA (700 mg). [13C]ALNA excursion was greatest in cholesteryl ester (CE) (224 (sem 70) &mgr;mol/l over 21 d) compared with triacylglycerol (9-fold), non-esterified fatty acids (37-fold) and phosphatidylcholine (PC, 7-fold). EPA excursion was similar in both PC (42 (sem 8) &mgr;mol/l) and CE (42 (sem 9) &mgr;mol/l) over 21 d. In contrast both [13C]DPA and [13C]DHA were detected predominately in PC (18 (sem 4) and 27 (sem 7) &mgr;mol/l over 21 d, respectively). Estimated net fractional ALNA inter-conversion was EPA 21 %, DPA 6 % and DHA 9 %. Approximately 22 % of administered [13C]ALNA was recovered as 13CO2 on breath over the first 24 h of the study. These results suggest differential partitioning of ALNA, EPA and DHA between plasma lipid classes, which may facilitate targeting of individual n-3 fatty acids to specific tissues. Comparison with previous studies suggests that women may possess a greater capacity for ALNA conversion than men. Such metabolic capacity may be important for meeting the demands of the fetus and neonate for DHA during pregnancy and lactation. Differences in DHA status between women both in the non-pregnant state and in pregnancy may reflect variations in metabolic capacity for DHA synthesis.
Int J Vitam Nutr Res 1998;68(3):159-73
Can adults adequately convert alpha-linolenic acid (18:3n-3) to eicosapentaenoic acid (20:5n-3) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3)?
Gerster H.
Vitamin Research Department, F. Hoffman-Roche Ltd, Basel, Switzerland.
A diet including 2-3 portions of fatty fish per week, which corresponds to the intake of 1.25 g EPA (20:5n-3) + DHA (22:6n-3) per day, has been officially recommended on the basis of epidemiological findings showing a beneficial role of these n-3 long-chain PUFA in the prevention of cardiovascular and inflammatory diseases. The parent fatty acid ALA (18:3n-3), found in vegetable oils such as flaxseed or rapeseed oil, is used by the human organism partly as a source of energy, partly as a precursor of the metabolites, but the degree of conversion appears to be unreliable and restricted. More specifically, most studies in humans have shown that whereas a certain, though restricted, conversion of high doses of ALA to EPA occurs, conversion to DHA is severely restricted. The use of ALA labelled with radioisotopes suggested that with a background diet high in saturated fat conversion to long-chain metabolites is approximately 6% for EPA and 3.8% for DHA. With a diet rich in n-6 PUFA, conversion is reduced by 40 to 50%. It is thus reasonable to observe an n-6/n-3 PUFA ratio not exceeding 4-6. Restricted conversion to DHA may be critical since evidence has been increasing that this long-chain metabolite has an autonomous function, e.g. in the brain, retina and spermatozoa where it is the most prominent fatty acid. In neonates deficiency is associated with visual impairment, abnormalities in the electroretinogram and delayed cognitive development. In adults the potential role of DHA in neurological function still needs to be investigated in depth. Regarding cardiovascular risk factors DHA has been shown to reduce triglyceride concentrations. These findings indicate that future attention will have to focus on the adequate provision of DHA which can reliably be achieved only with the supply of the preformed long-chain metabolite.
Posted by oeps7 on September 13, 2003, at 8:13:10
In reply to Re: omega 3 » oeps7, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 8:08:37
Larry,
Thank you for the useful info. I just glanced at everything and now I am going to read it thoroughly. Which capsules do you suggest? I am going to give this a try. I have impaired glucose tolerance and this may also help.
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 9:10:21
In reply to Re: omega 3, posted by oeps7 on September 13, 2003, at 8:13:10
> Larry,
> Thank you for the useful info.You're welcome.
> I just glanced at everything and now I am going to read it thoroughly. Which capsules do you suggest?
Costco or Walmart fish oil is as good as any, IMHO.
> I am going to give this a try. I have impaired glucose tolerance and this may also help.
Absolutely correct. If you use medication that affects insulin responsiveness, you may find fish oil destabilized things at first.
In any case, it would be prudent to start at a lower dose, and work up. Some people need to build tolerance. Your body has to adapt to the supply, so it can manufacture uptake proteins.
I'd start at 2 grams per day, with your biggest meal (or the fattiest). Increase by 1 gram each week. The upper limit is a personal choice.
Lar
Posted by joebob on September 13, 2003, at 12:50:04
In reply to Re: omega 3 » oeps7, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 9:10:21
it is my understanding after much research and personal experience that as far as fish oils go for mental health the ratio of epa to dha is crucial.....
i use kirunal for that reason, i do not sell it or have any other interest in it, other than helping people get the results they need....
you can order it from "emerson ecologics" online...for more info:
http://www.fincastle.com/sp_research.html
dr. horrobin, before his recent passing, was considered on of the worlds leading experts on omega 3's and mental health, and it appears to me that dr. stoll got his original hypothesis and info from dr. horrobin
best to all
Posted by joebob on September 13, 2003, at 12:58:19
In reply to Re: omega 3 » oeps7, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 9:10:21
http://www.prohealthnetwork.com/library/showarticle.cfm/ID/549/
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:35
In reply to epa vs dha.....lar hoover any comment appreciated » Larry Hoover, posted by joebob on September 13, 2003, at 12:50:04
> it is my understanding after much research and personal experience that as far as fish oils go for mental health the ratio of epa to dha is crucial.....
I'm not as convinced as you are. DHA does different things than EPA, but both are decreased in depressives.
> i use kirunal for that reason, i do not sell it or have any other interest in it, other than helping people get the results they need....
> you can order it from "emerson ecologics" online...
>
> for more info:
>
> http://www.fincastle.com/sp_research.html
>
> dr. horrobin, before his recent passing, was considered on of the worlds leading experts on omega 3's and mental health, and it appears to me that dr. stoll got his original hypothesis and info from dr. horrobin
>
> best to allI know that there is evidence for the efficacy of EPA as an antidepressant, but there is also evidence implicating DHA decreases with respect to, at least, postpartum depression, and risk of depression, more generally.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2002 Nov;67(5):311-8.
Depression and adipose essential polyunsaturated fatty acids.Mamalakis G, Tornaritis M, Kafatos A.
Department of Social and Preventive Medicine, University of Crete, Iraklion, Crete, Greece
The objective of the present study was to investigate the relation between adipose tissue polyunsaturated fatty acids, an index of long-term or habitual fatty acid dietary intake, and depression. The sample consisted of 247 healthy adults (146 males, 101 females) from the island of Crete. The number of subjects with complete data on all variables studied was 139. Subjects were examined at the Preventive Medicine and Nutrition Clinic of the University of Crete. Depression was assessed through the use of the Zung Self-rating Depression Scale. Mildly depressed subjects had significantly reduced (-34.6%) adipose tissue docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) levels than non-depressed subjects. Multiple linear regression analysis indicated that depression related negatively to adipose tissue DHA levels. In line with the findings of other studies, the observed negative relation between adipose tissue DHA and depression, in the present study, appears to indicate increasing long-term dietary DHA intakes with decreasing depression. This is the first literature report of a relation between adipose tissue DHA and depression. Depression has been reported to be associated with increased cytokine production, such as IL-1, IL-2, IL-6, INF-gamma and INF-alpha. On the other hand, fish oil and omega-3 fatty acids have been reported to inhibit cytokine synthesis. The observed negative relation between adipose DHA and depression, therefore, may stem from the inhibiting effect of DHA on cytokine synthesis.
J Affect Disord. 2002 May;69(1-3):15-29.
Seafood consumption, the DHA content of mothers' milk and prevalence rates of postpartum depression: a cross-national, ecological analysis.Hibbeln JR.
Laboratory of Membrane Biophysics and Biochemistry, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism, National Institutes of Health, Park 5, Room 150, 12420 Parklawn Drive, Rockville, MD 20892, USA. jhibbeln@niaaa.nih.gov
BACKGROUND: Mothers selectively transfer docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) to their fetuses to support optimal neurological development during pregnancy. Without sufficient dietary intake, mothers become depleted of DHA and may increase their risk of suffering major depressive symptoms in the postpartum period. We postulated that the DHA content of mothers' milk and seafood consumption would both predict prevalence rates of postpartum depression across countries. METHODS: Published prevalence data for postpartum depression were included that used the Edinburgh Postpartum Depression Scale (n=14532 subjects in 41 studies). These data were compared to the DHA, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and arachidonic acid (AA) content in mothers' milk and to seafood consumption rates in published reports from 23 countries. RESULTS: Higher concentrations of DHA in mothers' milk (r=-0.84, p<0.0001, n=16 countries) and greater seafood consumption (r=-0.81, p<0.0001, n=22 countries) both predicted lower prevalence rates of postpartum depression in simple and logarithmic models, respectively. The AA and EPA content of mothers' milk were unrelated to postpartum depression prevalence. LIMITATIONS: These findings do not prove that higher omega-3 status cause lower prevalence rates of postpartum depression. Data on potentially confounding factors were not uniformly available for all countries. CONCLUSIONS: Both lower DHA content in mothers' milk and lower seafood consumption were associated with higher rates of postpartum depression. These results do not appear to be an artifact of cross-national differences in well-established risk factors for postpartum depression. Interventional studies are needed to determine if omega-3 fatty acids can reduce major postpartum depressive symptoms.
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 2003 Oct;69(4):237-43.
Increased risk of postpartum depressive symptoms is associated with slower normalization after pregnancy of the functional docosahexaenoic acid status.Otto SJ, de Groot RH, Hornstra G.
Department of Public Health, Erasmus MC, University Medical Center Rotterdam, P.O. Box 1738, 3000, DR Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Observational studies suggest an association between a low docosahexaenoic acid (DHA, 22:6n-3) status after pregnancy and the occurrence of postpartum depression. However, a comparison of the actual biochemical plasma DHA status among women with and without postpartum depression has not been reported yet.The contents of DHA and of its status indicator n-6 docosapentaenoic acid (n-6DPA, 22:5n-6) were measured in the plasma phospholipids of 112 women at delivery and 32 weeks postpartum. At this latter time point, the Edinburgh Postnatal Depression Scale (EPDS) questionnaire was completed to measure postpartum depression retrospectively. The EPDS cutoff score of 10 was used to define 'possibly depressed' (EPDS score >/=10) and non-depressed women (EPDS score <10). Odds ratios (OR) were calculated using a multiple logistic regression analysis with the EPDS cutoff score as dependent and fatty acid concentrations and ratio's as explanatory variables, while controlling for different covariables. The results demonstrated that the postpartum increase of the functional DHA status, expressed as the ratio DHA/n-6DPA, was significantly lower in the 'possibly depressed' group compared to the non-depressed group (2.34+/-5.56 versus 4.86+/-5.41, respectively; OR=0.88, P=0.03). Lactating women were not more predisposed than non-lactating women were to develop depressive symptoms. From this observation it seems that the availability of DHA in the postpartum period is less in women developing depressive symptoms. Although further studies are needed for confirmation, increasing the dietary DHA intake during pregnancy and postpartum, seems prudent.
There's also a direct relationship between decreased DHA and mania.Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 2003 Mar;13(2):99-103.
Polyunsaturated fatty acid deficit in patients with bipolar mania.
Chiu CC, Huang SY, Su KP, Lu ML, Huang MC, Chen CC, Shen WW.
Laboratory of Biological Psychiatry, Taipei City Psychiatric Center, School of Medicine, and Taipei Medical University, Taipei, Taiwan.
The aim of this study is to test the hypothesis that there is a depletion of polyunsaturated fatty acids of erythrocyte membranes in patients with bipolar disorder and to connect the previous therapeutic and psychoimmunological findings. Fatty acid compositions of erythrocyte membranes in 20 bipolar manic patients and 20 healthy controls were analyzed by thin-layer chromatography and gas chromatography. The major finding was significantly reduced arachidonic acid (20:4n-6) and docosahexaenoic acid (22:6n-3) compositions in bipolar patients as compared to normal controls with P values of 0.000 and 0.002, respectively. There were no differences in total omega-3 and omega-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids. This abnormality may be related to the mechanisms of action of mood stabilizers and the previous findings on the abnormal psychoimmunology of patients with bipolar disorder. Larger sample sizes of medicated patients or drug-free manic, well-controlled designs on the diet and smoking, and fatty acid composition measurements during full remission after the index episode are warranted in future studies.
Posted by McPac on September 14, 2003, at 0:06:42
In reply to Re: omega 3 » oeps7, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 9:10:21
I was at a Vitamin Shoppe recently; they have a great sale on their own brand of liquid fish oil ($4.98/8 oz. bottle(?). The only thing I noticed is that there was 25 (mg?) of cholesterol in each teaspoon...I didn't buy it for that reason (I would take around 3 tsp's/day and thought that might be too much extra cholesterol....whatcha think?)
Thanks!
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 7:14:37
In reply to Lar, Re: omega 3, posted by McPac on September 14, 2003, at 0:06:42
> I was at a Vitamin Shoppe recently; they have a great sale on their own brand of liquid fish oil ($4.98/8 oz. bottle(?). The only thing I noticed is that there was 25 (mg?) of cholesterol in each teaspoon...I didn't buy it for that reason (I would take around 3 tsp's/day and thought that might be too much extra cholesterol....whatcha think?)
> Thanks!Two things..... all fish oil contains cholesterol (except *maybe* the highly concentrated stuff), even if it's not labelled. Second, dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol unless you have a genetic inability to process it (I think that's 1 or 2 % of all people). 95% or more of the cholesterol in your blood is manufactured by your own liver.
That's a good price on fish oil. I'd go for it.
Lar
Posted by oeps7 on September 14, 2003, at 7:49:31
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: omega 3, posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 7:14:37
> > I was at a Vitamin Shoppe recently; they have a great sale on their own brand of liquid fish oil ($4.98/8 oz. bottle(?). The only thing I noticed is that there was 25 (mg?) of cholesterol in each teaspoon...I didn't buy it for that reason (I would take around 3 tsp's/day and thought that might be too much extra cholesterol....whatcha think?)
> > Thanks!
>
> Two things..... all fish oil contains cholesterol (except *maybe* the highly concentrated stuff), even if it's not labelled. Second, dietary cholesterol has no effect on blood cholesterol unless you have a genetic inability to process it (I think that's 1 or 2 % of all people). 95% or more of the cholesterol in your blood is manufactured by your own liver.
>
> That's a good price on fish oil. I'd go for it.
>
> Lar
Thanks for your help. I am going to give it a try. I will let you know what happens.
Have you had good results from this?Cheers,
Mary
Posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 8:15:20
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: omega 3, posted by oeps7 on September 14, 2003, at 7:49:31
> Thanks for your help.
You're very welcome.
> I am going to give it a try. I will let you know what happens.
> Have you had good results from this?
>
> Cheers,
> MaryYes. I attribute a number of good things to fish oil. My blood pressure has dropped 15 points systolic and ten points diastolic. My cholesterol ratio (HDL/LDL) has shifted towards the healthy side. My triglycerides are down. My mood is substantially more stable. I have greater resiliency to stressors. The latter two characteristics are less provable, but the first three are based on firm evidence.
Lar
Posted by joebob on September 14, 2003, at 16:59:45
In reply to Re: epa vs dha.....lar hoover any comment appreciated » joebob, posted by Larry Hoover on September 13, 2003, at 14:46:35
i heard dr horrobin speak at a conference 5 or 6 years ago, and the question was asked about epa vs dha....
his reply was that they had tested the dha and found it to be of little value in the depression, manic depression, schizophrenia model of efa derangement...
i followed up this conversation with the dha promoters and did not find their research nearly as compelling, as they were not really testing the readily available 100% products for mental illness.........
upon the birth of my son 5 years ago i contacted dr. horrobin for his advice.....
he told me that dha is structural and epa functional, and that for the first 3 years of life my son should get DHA either through my wife's breast milk or in supplemental form, from algae.....
after that i could use the epa as desired for him, but to go for the 3/1 ratio stuff...
as an aside you will see that dr.stoll's omegabrite is now at 7/1 ratio...
horrobin himself, who does not have a family history of the 3 fatty acid dysfunction mentioned above, he ate one or two cans of sardines a week and a small amount of epo......
as an aside, my son has excellant vision, much better than his parents, and horrobin mentioned the dha being very important for vision in the developing brain...
one last thing, i agree with the idea that post-partum is related to efa deficiency, i have seen it other mothers, not my wife.....
my understanding is that the babys brain will take the efa's it needs from the mother and deplete her, if she is low already.....
and i would bet that the baby will take both epa and dha and whatever other fats it can use while trying to build its' brain...
you will note that in all civilized countries it is required to supplment infant formual with dha, but the idea was squashed here in the us...i think it is a WHO bulletin/directiveas alwways thanks for your excellent replies
knowledge is power
best,
joebob
Posted by joebob on September 14, 2003, at 17:04:58
In reply to Lar, Re: omega 3, posted by McPac on September 14, 2003, at 0:06:48
for those who don't know already, vitamin shoppe is on the web and is my favorite retail supplier....good quality, great prices
vitaminshoppe.com
i buy everything wholesale through a chiropractor friend, but use vitamin shoppe if one of his suppliers doesn't have what i want at the time
save money, we're all going to need it for the future
best
Posted by McPac on September 15, 2003, at 19:43:26
In reply to Re: Lar, Re: omega 3, posted by Larry Hoover on September 14, 2003, at 7:14:37
This is the end of the thread.
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