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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 62 to 86 of 225. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2013, at 20:08:54
In reply to Re: the big picture » SLS, posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 20:07:34
Not Bob and the rock isn't going to change mind so why bother? Phillipa
Posted by SLS on July 9, 2013, at 20:22:25
In reply to Re: the big picture » SLS, posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 20:07:34
Hi GG.
> I'm not sure what you mean.
Perhaps the hard-place resides outside of Psycho-Babble.
I'm sorry to be so cryptic. It's what I don't know that prevents me from saying more.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 20:27:41
In reply to Re: the big picture » gardenergirl, posted by SLS on July 9, 2013, at 20:22:25
Perhaps something related to legal advice or action of some sort?
Posted by Phillipa on July 9, 2013, at 20:44:54
In reply to Re: the big picture » SLS, posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 20:27:41
Actually I know what you mean and yup I'd say that's it. Phillipa
Posted by SLS on July 9, 2013, at 20:45:31
In reply to Re: the big picture » SLS, posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 20:27:41
> Perhaps something related to legal advice or action of some sort?
This is what I am thinking.
If this is indeed the case, then any arguments as to the civility of posted content becomes moot. I would then want to make things as easy as possible for the doctor. I don't want to be the rock that pounds him into the hard place should one exist.
Regardless of the circumstances, I am not intent on hurting Dr. Bob or compromising his efforts to maintain his Psycho-Babble website.
I remain confused and conflicted.
- Scott
Posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 21:12:56
In reply to Re: the big picture » gardenergirl, posted by SLS on July 9, 2013, at 20:45:31
> If this is indeed the case, then any arguments as to the civility of posted content becomes moot. I would then want to make things as easy as possible for the doctor. I don't want to be the rock that pounds him into the hard place should one exist.
If something like that is the case, I would think that a response along the lines of, "I acknowledge (or perhaps understand) your concern re these posts, but I will not be taking any action about them" would be helpful. I believe saying something definitive vs engaging in tangents and process would go a long way towards shutting down this endless and not very productive discussion. It's way more respectful towards those with the concern. There's nothing wrong with respectfully setting a limit, but you have to actually say it/set it, not just hint or hedge.
It reminds me of a very similar situation at a workplace where the administrator was also a MH professional. Instead of essentially saying, "Knock it off," he went all processey/teachy, and it just went on and on and on...
We aren't patients or students here. We are consumers.
>
> I remain confused and conflicted.
>
>
> - ScottYup. Metaphors, open ended questions, and tangents do not often lead to clearly defined boundaries for acceptable behavior.
Posted by Toph on July 9, 2013, at 22:44:34
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:12:04
Do you ever find yourself between a rock and a hard place? What do you do then?
>
> Bob
>The phrase is STUCK between a rock and a hard place. What seems to baffle us is why would someone with consummate power to make and change the rules ever be stuck?
Posted by 10derheart on July 9, 2013, at 23:19:53
In reply to Re: the big picture » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on July 9, 2013, at 16:34:05
OMgosh, you rock, gg!!
This whole post is *precisely* what I've been wanting to say for days/weeks.
Why I couldn't be so clear beats me, but it doesn't matter who does it, and now you have captured the essence - thank you, thank you!
Posted by gardenergirl on July 10, 2013, at 18:33:22
In reply to Re: the big picture » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on July 9, 2013, at 23:19:53
Thanks. One of Dinah's recent posts helped these thoughts come together for me. Still a good team. :)
gg
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 10, 2013, at 21:02:55
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 9, 2013, at 15:12:04
All the time.
I go underground, surrender.
It's a battle you can't fight.
There's no winning.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on July 10, 2013, at 21:16:33
In reply to Re: the big picture » Dr. Bob, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 10, 2013, at 21:02:55
As far as the processing thing....
Sometimes, it really goes nowhere, so I don't engage in it.If I can't solve a problem, I just accept it, and make a decision in my best interest.... Hopefully
Like for instance,
Not reading Lou's posts
Not because I care all that much, I do, a little, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
There doesn't seem to be anything anyone can do about it, except Lou, of course.
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
In reply to Re: the big picture » sleepygirl2, posted by sleepygirl2 on July 10, 2013, at 21:16:33
> Is there some reason you can't or won't just come out and say you aren't willing to moderate any more?
>
> gardenergirl> Are you saying that you don't intend to do anything with posts like the ones that have been brought to your attention?
>
> If you say that you think those rules are fine under the existing rules, we can decide what to do.
>
> If you say they may not be but you have no intention of enforcing existing rules (and also have no intention of clarifying the new ones), then we can decide what to do.
>
> DinahSorry about being cryptic. I know I get that way sometimes.
I'm willing to moderate.
When I'm notified of posts, I'm enforcing existing rules and responding either on the board or to the posters who notified me. One exception is that I think right now it may be good for this community as a whole, and for me, to leave some of Lou's notifications outstanding.
--
> > Perhaps something related to legal advice or action of some sort?
>
> This is what I am thinking.
>
> - Scott> What seems to baffle us is why would someone with consummate power to make and change the rules ever be stuck?
>
> Toph> You sound a bit peeved, now. Did the mirror stung a little bit?
>
> gardenergirl10der asked before what I meant by "the old model". Another aspect of it was relying on the power to define and enforce boundaries for acceptable behavior. That was how the administration made this a refuge.
It's tempting to turn to power and, I suppose, fear. As a response and as an explanation: if what I'm doing doesn't make sense, maybe someone else is more powerful or making me feel afraid.
A mirror is an alternative to power (or maybe a different kind of power). I confess I've tried a mirror, with the hope that it might sting a little.
--
> > Do you ever find yourself between a rock and a hard place? What do you do then?
>
> All the time.
> I go underground, surrender.
> It's a battle you can't fight.
> There's no winning.> If I can't solve a problem, I just accept it, and make a decision in my best interest.... Hopefully
> Like for instance,
> Not reading Lou's posts
> Not because I care all that much, I do, a little, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
>
> sleepygirl2> OMgosh, you rock, gg!!
>
> This whole post is *precisely* what I've been wanting to say for days/weeks.
>
> Why I couldn't be so clear beats me, but it doesn't matter who does it, and now you have captured the essence - thank you, thank you!
>
> 10derheart> Thanks. One of Dinah's recent posts helped these thoughts come together for me. Still a good team. :)
>
> ggThat's what I'm thinking, too. There's no winning. But maybe surrender isn't the only other choice.
1. I can make a decision in my best interest, or the best interest of Babble.
2. And if there are others with me between that rock and that hard place, maybe together we can learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
Bob
Posted by SLS on July 11, 2013, at 12:35:25
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
> There's no winning. But maybe surrender isn't the only other choice.
>
> 1. I can make a decision in my best interest, or the best interest of Babble.I wish there were a place where the best interests of both could be served. Apparently, you don't feel that there is such a place, as I am sure that you would seek to be there if there were. I am hoping that you will find this place with continued exploration. However, until such a time arrives, I would prefer that Psycho-Babble remain intact. I am not happy to learn that the continuance of Psycho-Babble must occur at your detriment.
> 2. And if there are others with me between that rock and that hard place, maybe together we can learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
I'll try if you will.
:-)
- Scott
Posted by Lou P{ilder on July 11, 2013, at 13:06:02
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
> > Is there some reason you can't or won't just come out and say you aren't willing to moderate any more?
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> > Are you saying that you don't intend to do anything with posts like the ones that have been brought to your attention?
> >
> > If you say that you think those rules are fine under the existing rules, we can decide what to do.
> >
> > If you say they may not be but you have no intention of enforcing existing rules (and also have no intention of clarifying the new ones), then we can decide what to do.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> Sorry about being cryptic. I know I get that way sometimes.
>
> I'm willing to moderate.
>
> When I'm notified of posts, I'm enforcing existing rules and responding either on the board or to the posters who notified me. One exception is that I think right now it may be good for this community as a whole, and for me, to leave some of Lou's notifications outstanding.
>
> --
>
> > > Perhaps something related to legal advice or action of some sort?
> >
> > This is what I am thinking.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> > What seems to baffle us is why would someone with consummate power to make and change the rules ever be stuck?
> >
> > Toph
>
> > You sound a bit peeved, now. Did the mirror stung a little bit?
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> 10der asked before what I meant by "the old model". Another aspect of it was relying on the power to define and enforce boundaries for acceptable behavior. That was how the administration made this a refuge.
>
> It's tempting to turn to power and, I suppose, fear. As a response and as an explanation: if what I'm doing doesn't make sense, maybe someone else is more powerful or making me feel afraid.
>
> A mirror is an alternative to power (or maybe a different kind of power). I confess I've tried a mirror, with the hope that it might sting a little.
>
> --
>
> > > Do you ever find yourself between a rock and a hard place? What do you do then?
> >
> > All the time.
> > I go underground, surrender.
> > It's a battle you can't fight.
> > There's no winning.
>
> > If I can't solve a problem, I just accept it, and make a decision in my best interest.... Hopefully
> > Like for instance,
> > Not reading Lou's posts
> > Not because I care all that much, I do, a little, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
> >
> > sleepygirl2
>
> > OMgosh, you rock, gg!!
> >
> > This whole post is *precisely* what I've been wanting to say for days/weeks.
> >
> > Why I couldn't be so clear beats me, but it doesn't matter who does it, and now you have captured the essence - thank you, thank you!
> >
> > 10derheart
>
> > Thanks. One of Dinah's recent posts helped these thoughts come together for me. Still a good team. :)
> >
> > gg
>
> That's what I'm thinking, too. There's no winning. But maybe surrender isn't the only other choice.
>
> 1. I can make a decision in my best interest, or the best interest of Babble.
>
> 2. And if there are others with me between that rock and that hard place, maybe together we can learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
You wrote,[...I'm enforcing existing rules...One exception..leave some of Lou's notifications outstanding...].
A way that you can handle this IMHHHO, is for you to post in the threads that you are leaving my notifications outstanding that you either consider the statement in question supportive or not. And if it is not supportive, then you could post your rationale for allowing it to stand anyway. Then I could post my response to you and members could make their own determination as to if what is in question, if being allowed to stand, will be good for this community as a whole.
Lou Pilder
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2013, at 14:14:53
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
I didn't understand most of that. But I am weary of trying to understand, so really don't much care.
I actually don't mind process stuff. But if you get too abstract, my eyes glaze over.
Posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:07:50
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
>>Sorry about being cryptic. I know I get that way sometimes.
This post is one of those times. I understand little of it :-(
When I have to read it over three and four times, or more, and guess what things might symbolize, or puzzle out the construction of sentences, etc.
{shakes head} No, this is not communicating. Not for me.
Worn out.
Posted by Dinah on July 11, 2013, at 17:31:28
In reply to Re: the big picture » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:07:50
I thought it was me!
Posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:41:06
In reply to Re: the big picture » Dr. Bob, posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:07:50
:-) I just saw and read your post now.
Spooky....in a good way.
GMTA and all that, but in this case, I think it's just straightforward, plainspoken minds....
I'm really confident it is not even just you and me.
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 18:06:57
In reply to Re: the big picture » 10derheart, posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:41:06
i see it as an invitation
to participate
in trying to make sense
in trying to make things better
in... persistence
but that's just me
(i don't expect there is a right answer)
what do you see?
Posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 18:07:49
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 18:06:57
(and of course what i really see is me PROCRASTINATING... sheesh... what, do i need to be blocked, already)
;-)
Posted by Emme_V2 on July 11, 2013, at 18:10:11
In reply to Re: the big picture » 10derheart, posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 17:41:06
> :-) I just saw and read your post now.
>
> Spooky....in a good way.
>
> GMTA and all that, but in this case, I think it's just straightforward, plainspoken minds....
>
> I'm really confident it is not even just you and me.
>
>My eyes have glazed over a bit on all of this, but I think you guys are hitting on a lot of what I think. I think the situation is being overthought and the solution made to be much much harder than it needs to be.
I think the minimal moderation approach would work pretty well most of the time. To me, it would make sense to let the board generally take care of small brushfires on its own if they resolve quickly. But when a situation becomes really disruptive, step in and enforce the existing rules with a PBC or a short block (hope it's not needed). This really doesn't need to exhaust Bob emotionally or time-wise. FWIW, I do rather like having him around for some interaction in general (enforcement actions aside), and I would hope he'd find that involvement doesn't burden him.
Posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 19:38:53
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by alexandra_k on July 11, 2013, at 18:06:57
I see next to nothing because I don't understand what Dr. Bob means - at all. Too many pronouns, too many metaphors...
I'm not a big fan of code. It's exhausting and frustrating and I'm likely to misunderstand it.
Posted by Phillipa on July 11, 2013, at 19:52:25
In reply to Whew! » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on July 11, 2013, at 17:31:28
I thought it was I. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on July 12, 2013, at 12:18:15
In reply to Re: the big picture » alexandra_k, posted by 10derheart on July 11, 2013, at 19:38:53
> I think the situation is being overthought and the solution made to be much much harder than it needs to be.
>
> I think the minimal moderation approach would work pretty well most of the time. To me, it would make sense to let the board generally take care of small brushfires on its own if they resolve quickly. But when a situation becomes really disruptive, step in and enforce the existing rules with a PBC or a short block (hope it's not needed). This really doesn't need to exhaust Bob emotionally or time-wise. FWIW, I do rather like having him around for some interaction in general (enforcement actions aside), and I would hope he'd find that involvement doesn't burden him.
>
> Emme_V2I agree. The question is, harder for whom? Or, where's the line between "small brushfires" and "really disruptive"? Would it exhaust posters emotionally or time-wise to take care of larger, more disruptive brushfires?
Thanks for liking to have me around. It's nice not to be alone.
--
> i see it as an invitation
> to participate
> in trying to make sense
> in trying to make things better
> in... persistence
>
> alexandra_k> I see next to nothing because I don't understand what Dr. Bob means - at all. Too many pronouns, too many metaphors...
>
> I'm not a big fan of code. It's exhausting and frustrating and I'm likely to misunderstand it.
>
> 10derheartIt can help if others can translate. Did Alex not help, or is it an invitation you have reservations about accepting?
--
> > 1. I can make a decision in my best interest, or the best interest of Babble.
>
> I wish there were a place where the best interests of both could be served. Apparently, you don't feel that there is such a place, as I am sure that you would seek to be there if there were. I am hoping that you will find this place with continued exploration. However, until such a time arrives, I would prefer that Psycho-Babble remain intact. I am not happy to learn that the continuance of Psycho-Babble must occur at your detriment.
>
> > 2. And if there are others with me between that rock and that hard place, maybe together we can learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
>
> I'll try if you will.
>
> :-)
>
> - Scott1. I didn't mean to put that as an either-or. I definitely feel there are times when both can be served. Like now.
And I wonder about the other times. Maybe I'm like fossil fuel, and it might be nice if I remained available, but it might be even better if Babble could be less dependent on me. Then it would be even less either-or.
2. Thanks, it's nice not to be alone. :-)
Bob
Posted by Lou PIlder on July 12, 2013, at 15:55:22
In reply to Re: the big picture, posted by Dr. Bob on July 11, 2013, at 9:50:14
> > Is there some reason you can't or won't just come out and say you aren't willing to moderate any more?
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> > Are you saying that you don't intend to do anything with posts like the ones that have been brought to your attention?
> >
> > If you say that you think those rules are fine under the existing rules, we can decide what to do.
> >
> > If you say they may not be but you have no intention of enforcing existing rules (and also have no intention of clarifying the new ones), then we can decide what to do.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> Sorry about being cryptic. I know I get that way sometimes.
>
> I'm willing to moderate.
>
> When I'm notified of posts, I'm enforcing existing rules and responding either on the board or to the posters who notified me. One exception is that I think right now it may be good for this community as a whole, and for me, to leave some of Lou's notifications outstanding.
>
> --
>
> > > Perhaps something related to legal advice or action of some sort?
> >
> > This is what I am thinking.
> >
> > - Scott
>
> > What seems to baffle us is why would someone with consummate power to make and change the rules ever be stuck?
> >
> > Toph
>
> > You sound a bit peeved, now. Did the mirror stung a little bit?
> >
> > gardenergirl
>
> 10der asked before what I meant by "the old model". Another aspect of it was relying on the power to define and enforce boundaries for acceptable behavior. That was how the administration made this a refuge.
>
> It's tempting to turn to power and, I suppose, fear. As a response and as an explanation: if what I'm doing doesn't make sense, maybe someone else is more powerful or making me feel afraid.
>
> A mirror is an alternative to power (or maybe a different kind of power). I confess I've tried a mirror, with the hope that it might sting a little.
>
> --
>
> > > Do you ever find yourself between a rock and a hard place? What do you do then?
> >
> > All the time.
> > I go underground, surrender.
> > It's a battle you can't fight.
> > There's no winning.
>
> > If I can't solve a problem, I just accept it, and make a decision in my best interest.... Hopefully
> > Like for instance,
> > Not reading Lou's posts
> > Not because I care all that much, I do, a little, but there's not a damn thing I can do about it.
> >
> > sleepygirl2
>
> > OMgosh, you rock, gg!!
> >
> > This whole post is *precisely* what I've been wanting to say for days/weeks.
> >
> > Why I couldn't be so clear beats me, but it doesn't matter who does it, and now you have captured the essence - thank you, thank you!
> >
> > 10derheart
>
> > Thanks. One of Dinah's recent posts helped these thoughts come together for me. Still a good team. :)
> >
> > gg
>
> That's what I'm thinking, too. There's no winning. But maybe surrender isn't the only other choice.
>
> 1. I can make a decision in my best interest, or the best interest of Babble.
>
> 2. And if there are others with me between that rock and that hard place, maybe together we can learn ways to cope and find the energy to persevere.
>
> BobFriends,
It is written her,
[...I am enforcing existing rules...one exception...it may be good for this community as a whole to leave {some} of Lou's posts outstanding...].
Be advised, my friends, that this has historical parallels. The danger here to readers I am prevented from posting here due to the prohibitions posted to me here by Mr Hsiung.
You see, the posts that Mr Hsiung will leave outstanding are not specified as to which type of post will be allowed to remain outstanding. He does say that it {will be} good for this community as a whole for him to do that. Now that could mean that there is some precedent that Mr Hsiung is relying on to state such a claim that it {will be} good. Now the historical record shows what has happened when there are two standards in a community for Mr Hsiung states that he will enforce the rules {except} in Lou's case for {some} of his notifications.
Now we do not know which posts belong in the set of {some} of Lou's notifications. And we do not know what the magnitude of what {some} could mean. Could it be that just a few notifications are not going to be responded to? Could it mean that 99% of the notifications from me are not going to be responded to? And what about the years of outstanding notifications from me? And what about the outstanding notifications from when he posted this? And what good could it be for this community to leave {any} notification outstanding? And how could a mother trying to make a more-informed decision as to drug their child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor make the best decision if there are posts that if my notification was acted on helped the parent make the best decision? And how many years must a notification exist, before a notification is honored? And how many times can a statement stand, before it is said to be bad? The answer, my friends, is that Mr Hsiung says it may be good for this community as a whole, for Mr. Hsiung states that support takes precedence and it may be good for the community to see my posts not responded to, which could lead some readers to think what is allowed to stand is supportive since it is not acted on. I wonder what type of mind a person could have here that wants to be in concert with Mr Hsiung in this not responding to my posts here. You see, the argument that it {will be} good for the community as a whole is the same argument to justify infanticide, it is the same argument to justify genocide, it is the same argument to justify slavery, it is the same argument to justify segregation, it is the same argument to justify discrimination. It is nothing new, my friends, it is an old argument, and I can't accept it, for I have seen what two standards can do to people in a community that allows it to be fostered.
Lou
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
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