![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 141 to 165 of 179. Go back in thread:
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:08
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Twinleaf on May 15, 2013, at 5:26:29
> I really don't feel disempowered about this situation with Lou. I feel that I do offer encouragement, and what knowledge I have to other posters - particularly new ones. I am concerned about people who never even begin posting because they are frightened away by the negative messages in Lou's posts.
What about the people who do begin posting because they're reassured by your encouragement and knowledge? Do you feel Lou has more power to frighten than you have to reassure?
> As moderator, you have power that we don't have: you can use the civility rules in an equal and fair way to ensure that Babble is welcoming for everyone. The way it is now, it is not welcoming and safe for newcomers either taking medications or planning to take them. Respectfully, Bob, you do have the power to make it both safe and welcoming here, if you choose to use it.
No community will feel welcoming and safe to everyone. Whenever members of the community express opinions, those who disagree may feel unwelcome and unsafe. There continue to be newcomers here, however, so they must feel welcome and safe enough.
I wonder if more newcomers would feel welcome and safe if fewer old-timers said Babble was unwelcoming and unsafe.
Hmm, negative messages about Babble might frighten away people like negative messages about medication. So that's another way in which you and Lou may have something in common.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
In reply to The word 'could'. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 9:27:25
> Personally, I find that the word "drugging" is a pejorative term.
>
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, the word "could" as used here is virtually meaningless.Scott,
Well done! My only reservation is with "meaningless". Somehow the way you addressed "drugging" seemed to me less, well, pejorative. What do you think about something like:
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, it's hard to know how worried to be about the possibility that something "could" happen.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
In reply to Re: The word 'could'., posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
That wouldn't really address it, would it?
How about if he said that he felt uncomfortable/distressed/angry etc. at the word "drugging"?
Or would this be something to report to you privately? How do you feel about the word "drugging"? Or, a useage that I find more of an issue, "drugging your children". Do you consider it civil for someone to ask a question about medications, and for someone to respond in terms of "drugging your children" along with comments about suicide, murder, and violence against groups of people? Doesn't that seem a bit, well, "accusing"? With or without a "could"? Wouldn't there even be a problem with accusing knowing the truthfulness of the statement? After all, unless you're going out for street drugs, no parent has the authority to "drug" their children.
How would you feel as a distraught mother approaching Babble for perhaps the first time for answers, and receiving an answer like that? Would you feel accused? Would you stick around Babble, no matter how much other posters tried to soften the impact?
I wouldn't.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:22:28
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
I think the idea should be considered the topic of a civility discussion separate from any issues with any particular poster. I strongly believe that "drugging your children" with or without "could" is inherently accusing, and unless parents are proceeding without a psychiatrist, inherently untruthful as well as accusing.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 11:30:49
In reply to Re: The word 'could'., posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:22:28
I agree. I've always had a visceral reaction to that phrase.
> I think the idea should be considered the topic of a civility discussion separate from any issues with any particular poster. I strongly believe that "drugging your children" with or without "could" is inherently accusing, and unless parents are proceeding without a psychiatrist, inherently untruthful as well as accusing.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 11:30:49
I know that if the topic ever came up, this would be the last place I'd ever look for answers. Knowing that I'd very likely be accused of drugging my kid, and potentially causing him to become a mass murderer. And I'm invested in Babble! Imagine how a casual poster or newcomer would feel!
And of course I'm guessing you and I and several others can join in the chorus of Dr. Bob's probable response. Likely his posting equivalent of "Don't let the door hit your rear on the way out." Hmmmm.... "If you don't think you'd like being accused of potentially turning your child into a mass murderer, Babble might not be the best place for you to ask questions like that." Does that sound right? I'd be delighted to have misjudged him.
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
Sounds about right to me. I'll never understand certain interpretations of self-expression that are apparently, allegedly, supposedly seen as civil here. Never, ever, ever.
When my now adult 'kid' was small, I drugged her for strep throat and for ear infections. I drugged my kid for chronic pain. I drugged her for vitamin and iron deficiencies. I drugged my kid for burns and abrasions on her skin. When she was 18, legal but still completely relying on me to help decide and to facilitate any kind of medical treatment, I highly encouraged her to drug herself with....[drum roll] a psychiatric medication when she had sudden, persistent suicidal ideation and depression. Since my insurance covered this drug and without me she really wouldn't have known it was available or how to get it (we were living in Europe at the time), I take responsibility for druggin' her that time, too. She, after a small adjustment since she was so sensitive to the 'drug' (prefer to call these medications, but...I'll go with the flow) felt vastly better within six weeks and has never had another suicidal thought in the 13 years since. She voluntarily chose when to stop drugging herself.
My daughter drugs her daughter for infections, pain, allergies and more. She does so as little as possible and trusts her own judgment to know when to do so, and when to enlist the help of a doctor to potentially prescribe certain drugs, and whether or not to give them to her daughter after weighing risks and benefits. I approve of and have assisted in this drugging of my granddaughter. She is a remarkably happy, healthy child who accepts a reasonable level of druggin' when presented to her (not old enough to decide too much yet, but she gets a say) and declines drugs when she feels better. She has a serious and mature appreciation of what grown-up and possibly dangerous tools drugs are, just as she does with hammers, the stove, and the controls on our cars - she leaves the tool-using, cooking, driving and drugging to her parents and me unless she is expressly told she may touch or use these tools, supervised. If she ever shows mental health symptoms just as alarming or painful as the physical ones she has been drugged for by the adults in her life who love and care for her, I would gladly support her parents' decision to drug her with a psychiatric 'drug' as well. I see this as balanced, attentive parenting and grandparenting, doing the best we can at each turn. Life is full of choices; they can go wrong but we must do the best we can with what we know at the time, especially for kids who can't so for themselves.
I wish medicine had advanced enough while I was a youngster so my doctor and parents had even known enough about my suffering with ADD to consider the **option** of druggin' me with some helpful drug. That way, I well may not have drugged myself with nicotine, caffeine and sometimes alcohol for decades trying to relieve symptoms.
I am proud of my drugging of my kid and her drugging of her kid. I feel the same about it as I do about my feeding her fruits and veggies and lots of water, teaching her to swim, or allowing her to ride a bike fast (without helmets, which were unheard of back in the day). She could have choked on a piece of carrot, slipped on a banana peel dropped on the floor and broken a bone, drowned, or cracked her head open, and yes, died, or killed me or herself after taking that drug, I suppose. Yet, I still feel this was all rationale, responsible parenting. I am sure I'd feel even stronger had my D. or gd had cancer, diabetes, severe asthma, allergy to bee stings, deep depression, schizophrenia, or anything else that could quickly be deadly.
It's as simple as this for me.
Proud drugger.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 19:36:36
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
>
> Hmmmm.... "If you don't think you'd like being accused of potentially turning your child into a mass murderer, Babble might not be the best place for you to ask questions like that." Does that sound right? I'd be delighted to have misjudged him.That's hilarious. And a bit sad.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 20:23:27
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2013, at 20:31:44
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
Excellent post!!!!
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 21:40:02
In reply to Well said. I hope you dropped the mic after that. (nm) » 10derheart, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 20:23:27
okay, gg, I give up already. Since I know that can't be a reference to Irish people (hardly your style) it must mean microphone....and how come you hope I dropped it?
To me, it means...oh, please tell me she shut up after that...finally!! But that's not your style either.
What cultural or linguistic expression have I missed out on? I'm usually pretty 'with it' for my...errr...mature level of life experience (!), so I bet I'm going to feel really dumb when you explain... :-(
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 22:15:43
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 21:40:02
> To me, it means...oh, please tell me she shut up after that...finally!! But that's not your style either.Not at all. It's a good thing:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Drop%20The%20Mic"A phrase describing the action performed after getting the better of someone.
Calling someone out so hard that you just walk away indisputably victorious (See 8 Mile)"After serving someone, I just drop the mic, and walk away""
:)
gg
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:30
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
These are all fine points. You have me convinced.
Sometimes, it is difficult for me to completely ignore the context within which a phrase is used or the motivations and attitudes that I believe the author possesses. Of course, such beliefs would be difficult to prove, and are rather subjective. Still, I don't often see the word "medicating" used to depict an undesirable behavior. I more often see that the word "drugging" is used this way.
"He drugged me, then robbed me."
"He medicated me, then robbed me."
I'll try to be less prejudiced when I see the word "drugging" used.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds about right to me. I'll never understand certain interpretations of self-expression that are apparently, allegedly, supposedly seen as civil here. Never, ever, ever.
>
> When my now adult 'kid' was small, I drugged her for strep throat and for ear infections. I drugged my kid for chronic pain. I drugged her for vitamin and iron deficiencies. I drugged my kid for burns and abrasions on her skin. When she was 18, legal but still completely relying on me to help decide and to facilitate any kind of medical treatment, I highly encouraged her to drug herself with....[drum roll] a psychiatric medication when she had sudden, persistent suicidal ideation and depression. Since my insurance covered this drug and without me she really wouldn't have known it was available or how to get it (we were living in Europe at the time), I take responsibility for druggin' her that time, too. She, after a small adjustment since she was so sensitive to the 'drug' (prefer to call these medications, but...I'll go with the flow) felt vastly better within six weeks and has never had another suicidal thought in the 13 years since. She voluntarily chose when to stop drugging herself.
>
> My daughter drugs her daughter for infections, pain, allergies and more. She does so as little as possible and trusts her own judgment to know when to do so, and when to enlist the help of a doctor to potentially prescribe certain drugs, and whether or not to give them to her daughter after weighing risks and benefits. I approve of and have assisted in this drugging of my granddaughter. She is a remarkably happy, healthy child who accepts a reasonable level of druggin' when presented to her (not old enough to decide too much yet, but she gets a say) and declines drugs when she feels better. She has a serious and mature appreciation of what grown-up and possibly dangerous tools drugs are, just as she does with hammers, the stove, and the controls on our cars - she leaves the tool-using, cooking, driving and drugging to her parents and me unless she is expressly told she may touch or use these tools, supervised. If she ever shows mental health symptoms just as alarming or painful as the physical ones she has been drugged for by the adults in her life who love and care for her, I would gladly support her parents' decision to drug her with a psychiatric 'drug' as well. I see this as balanced, attentive parenting and grandparenting, doing the best we can at each turn. Life is full of choices; they can go wrong but we must do the best we can with what we know at the time, especially for kids who can't so for themselves.
>
> I wish medicine had advanced enough while I was a youngster so my doctor and parents had even known enough about my suffering with ADD to consider the **option** of druggin' me with some helpful drug. That way, I well may not have drugged myself with nicotine, caffeine and sometimes alcohol for decades trying to relieve symptoms.
>
> I am proud of my drugging of my kid and her drugging of her kid. I feel the same about it as I do about my feeding her fruits and veggies and lots of water, teaching her to swim, or allowing her to ride a bike fast (without helmets, which were unheard of back in the day). She could have choked on a piece of carrot, slipped on a banana peel dropped on the floor and broken a bone, drowned, or cracked her head open, and yes, died, or killed me or herself after taking that drug, I suppose. Yet, I still feel this was all rationale, responsible parenting. I am sure I'd feel even stronger had my D. or gd had cancer, diabetes, severe asthma, allergy to bee stings, deep depression, schizophrenia, or anything else that could quickly be deadly.
>
> It's as simple as this for me.
>
> Proud drugger.
>
>
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:46
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » 10derheart, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 22:15:43
That is so funny cuz the first thing I thought of was rap and the second thing was Eminem, (it mentions "8 Mile" - I love that movie, BTW, although it has some rough parts....)
which, come to think of it, in and of itself shows my age...
But seriously, I know you were complimenting me but I didn't see it as getting the better of anyone while writing it, but instead just trying to turn the phrases druggin', drugging, drug your child and so forth into something posters could maybe see differently, something perfectly ordinary in the scheme of daily life.I have bad visceral reactions to the use of the word like that, too, but then I started thinking, perhaps *I* am giving them the negative power, so then *I* can remove it, too. It's all in how you look at it.
You gotta drug who you gotta drug ;-)
Thanks for posting....I miss you.
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:51:17
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2013, at 20:31:44
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 1:35:39
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
I think that's a great attitude, 10der. I tend to beat myself up over my choices. Your way sounds healthier.
It's not *just* that portion of the wording though. When accompanied by statements that "drugging your children" "could" lead to mass murders, etc., it's a bit hard for me to interpret it in any sort of positive way.
Posted by 10derheart on May 17, 2013, at 2:18:02
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 1:35:39
I know and agree. I'm still working on those bits of it...more challenging.
Maybe I'll come up with something to help neutralize, but some things....
I think I just skip right over everything right after "could lead to..." since I've seen it literally dozens of times.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 2:28:04
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 17, 2013, at 2:18:02
Well, *we* can. But I doubt it's reasonable to expect newcomers to dismiss it as repetitive. It's not repetitive to them.
It's not even applicable to me. But I strongly identify with the potential readers who are worried and confused parents. I feel rather like I feel about people who came to Psychology and made highly.... hmmmmm..... "negative" statements about therapy and therapists.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 17, 2013, at 22:27:57
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:46
Posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid » 10derheart, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2013, at 2:28:04
I'm not taking up for fear-mongering in any form or by anyone-- but I do wonder if we've understood how fears and hopes work here.
Maybe if we remembered our own choice to post here-- and the reasons why we did become long-term posters-- we can better understand what Lou's impact-- or our own-- is. Perhaps that would give us a different insight into our own process-- rather than if we imagine what new posters might feel-- from our present points of view.~~~
I remember coming here before I posted-- years and years ago-- and being frightened by, for example, individuals' expressions of fear-- to which I resonated-- Yet none of us would consider anything these individuals have written to be uncivil. They were expressing their own anxieties-- quite rightfully-- and asking for help in coping with them. No one would ever want to deny them that right of expression and seeking for help--There are stories by many here of fears, or bad reactions to drugs, or weight gain-- failure of repeated trials of ADs to work--nightmarish interactions with insensitive pdocs, etc--that might actually be more frightening to new posters than all the extreme rhetoric in the world-- especially when it's pointed out by other posters.
And I think each new poster comes here with a history of fears and hopes, looking for confirmation-- or disproofs-- -- in the absence of any guarantees. For each of us, starting a new drug is an difficult venture, spurred by bad experiences of some sort-- and right now, given the state of medical science-- it's going to be a rather uncertain one. I think at best we can offer hope, and support through the uncertainty, try to be there when the person experiences whatever effects come-- and try to slightly make it easier to come to a good (for that person) process.
My bet is that most new posters have read many posts here before they actually post. And from what I've seen, it's possible that many come here not with the intention of becoming permanent posters-- but for limited information or the answers to certain questions.
If so-- why? how does the site as a whole feel as they read it over and make a preliminary connection to how they might want to interact here?I wish we knew more-- but really we're groping in the dark a bit to come to a better place as a community. But we should look more closely before we blame Lou for driving people away-- despite our own immediate, reflexive belief that he might-- because we may be ignoring and somewhat singling him out-- for a process in which he is certainly an important actor-- but which is not really controlled by him.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 18, 2013, at 13:28:49
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
There's a difference, though, between expressing one's own fears about our own treatment choices or lack thereof and projecting our fear onto others' potential choices.
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
In reply to Re: druggin' my kid, posted by Willful on May 18, 2013, at 13:04:42
> I remember coming here before I posted-- years and years ago-- and being frightened by, for example, individuals' expressions of fear-- to which I resonated
>
> I think at best we can offer hope, and support through the uncertainty, try to be there when the person experiences whatever effects come-- and try to slightly make it easier to come to a good (for that person) process.I like the idea of reflecting on one's own experiences of fear and hope. Me, I fear people will stop coming to Babble, which is a fear some posters have expressed. At the same time, Babble has been resilient, (some) new people are coming, (some) old people are staying, I'm still here, and I think we're all learning, so I have hope that Babble will make it.
Bob
Posted by SLS on May 19, 2013, at 7:50:12
In reply to Re: fear and hope, posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
> I'm still here, and I think we're all learning, so I have hope that Babble will make it.
Thank you.
- Scott
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 19, 2013, at 9:36:18
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 9, 2013, at 23:13:56
> > Lou may express what some posters fear. What would reassure those posters who feel afraid?
> >
> > A reassuring statement could be developed and reused, for example:
> >
> > > Almost any drug will cause death if not managed properly. It is true that drugs in general can cause death. Psychiatric drugs are not unique in this regard.
> > >
> > > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16294364
>
> And:
>
> > I don't [have doubts about whether medication saves lives]. I was hospitalized five times in ten years with manic or suicidal episodes until I commited to taking lithium. I was hospitalized once in the subsequent thirty years and that when I watched my mother die. Lithium saved my life.
>
> > I totally agree that the right medications save lives - and also make lives worth living. And I think any risk to patients can be offset with a decent psychiatrist keeping an eye on possible bad reactions.
>
> And I thought these were nice (civil) examples of balancing one point of view with another:
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043379.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043387.html
>
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043381.html
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20130109/msgs/1043388.html
>
> Other ways to reassure posters might include a list of Frequently Felt Worries, analogous to a FAQ, and highlighting posts with success stories or other reasons to feel hopeful.
>
> Note that the focus here is other posters (and lurkers), not Lou. Trying to change Lou (like trying to change me) can lead to frustration.
>
> --
>
> > Perhaps you can see how, to people struggling to find a way out of hopelessness, despair, flatness, intense anxiety or agitation, that it could be incredibly distressing to see extreme negativity over and over and over again.
> >
> > Dinah
>
> As individuals may struggle with feelings of hopelessness, groups may struggle with individuals who express hopelessness. Blocking expressions of hopelessness may seem to solve the problem for groups, but how can individuals block feelings of hopelessness?
>
> Does anybody here have any tips on how to deal with feelings of hopelessness? Can those approaches be applied here?
>
> --
>
> > Frustration, it's frustration that resonates with me Bob, not powerlessness. ... Lou is undoubtedly intelligent and clever. We know that because of his frustrating comunication style when there's evidence that he can communicate perfectly normally. And how in God's name does he get away with using veiled accusations ... ? It's infuriating and manipulative and uncivil. ... I'm tired of being accused of being an anti-semite ... F*ck you Lou, I'm frustrated.
> >
> > Toph
>
> OK, frustration, not powerlessness. "I'm frustrated" is of course a more civil way of expressing frustration than "f*ck you".
>
> I'm not saying Lou isn't intelligent and clever, but inconsistent doesn't necessarily mean intentional.
>
> Something that's unacceptable when unveiled can be acceptable when veiled.
>
> Posts can be infuriating without being uncivil.
>
> It sounds like you felt infuriated because you felt accused. Would you feel infuriated if you were accused of being from Mars?
>
> --
>
> > > 3. In a way, it may be good for this community to see that posts by you don't have to be responded to.
> >
> > True or False
> > A. If it may be good, then it also may be bad for this community to see posts by you, Lou, don't have to be responded to
>
> True
>
> > C. By leaving your requests to me outstanding, Lou, then readers could think that the ones that contain statements that you think could arouse anti-Semitic feelings could be thought by some to be supportive and will be god for this community as a whole
> > D. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, others could break my own rules here.
> > F. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, then Jews and Islamic people and others could have their faiths insulted and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> > G. By leaving your requests outstanding, Lou, that could encourage others to have hatred toward the Jews, and that will be good for this community as a whole.
> > H. By leaving all of the posts outstanding in this link, Lou, I can make it good for this community to think that (redacted by respondent)
> >
> > Lou Pilder
>
> I wonder if you feel frustrated by me. If so, you and Toph may have something in common.
>
> And I may have something in common with medication. Taking medication could potentially lead to a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death. And my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death.
>
> --
>
> > Still, it takes repeated investments of time and energy to reassure other posters. I can see how that could get old. It takes repeated investments of time and energy to moderate Babble.
>
> Let's make a deal. If I invest time and energy to moderate Babble, will you all invest time and energy to reassure other posters?
>
> BobMr Hsiung,
It is written here by Mr. Hsiung,
[...my not responding to requests could potentially lead to being hated, which could also be a life-ruining condition, and in an extreme case, death...].
I am unsure as to what your drafting here with your grammatical structure of the statement and if you could post answers here to the following, then I could know what you are wanting readers to think and I could then respond to you.
You did write before the statement here,[...I wonder if you feel frustrated by me...]
Now the post that you are responding to here follows a question from me to you. But still, I would like clarification by the following.
True or false
A. By you not responding to requests, the requestor could be hated
B. By not responding to requests, the one that does not respond could be hated
C. Both could be hated
Complete
D. The life-ruining condition as an example, could be__________________________________
E.The death that could result could be:____________________
F. The people that have hate infused in them, if there are such, by that you do not respond to requests are those that:__________________
G. If you think that I feel frustrated by that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me to you, would that be what you mean by "supportive" since you state that support takes precedence here?
H. If so, and you do what in your thinking will be good for this community as a whole, what good could result from the fact that there are years of outstanding requests/notifications from me here?
Here are some posts that I would like readers to read in relation to this.
Lou Pilder
To see these posts go to the search box at the bottom of the page and type in:
[admin,1042409]
and,
[admin,1034151]
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2013, at 12:14:33
In reply to Re: fear and hope, posted by Dr. Bob on May 19, 2013, at 1:55:49
That'll do, Dr. Bob. That'll do.
Go forward in thread:
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