![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 130 to 154 of 179. Go back in thread:
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 8:29:35
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 4:29:21
> I think it's a good point that we all have a lot in common. We are all human, and react with the same feelings to events, depending n how we interpret them. We all have the same emotions - fear, anger, hope, love. We each just vary a bit in how we react to particular events; each is important - the similarities and the individual differences. I think we are all basically in agreement with you on that.
>
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.Friends,
If you are considering being a discussant in this thread, I am requesting that you read the following post.
Lou
To see this post, go to the search box at the bottom of this page and type in:
[babble,1014270]
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 8:40:37
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 4:29:21
> I think it's a good point that we all have a lot in common. We are all human, and react with the same feelings to events, depending n how we interpret them. We all have the same emotions - fear, anger, hope, love. We each just vary a bit in how we react to particular events; each is important - the similarities and the individual differences. I think we are all basically in agreement with you on that.
>
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.
Twinleaf,
You wrote,[...return to this important issue...]
I am unsure as to what the issue is here that you want to return to. You say it is about the possible effects from my posts here. Does this mean that :
A. All of my posts
B. some of my posts, such as ....(can you give an example here?)
C. only posts that have educational content concerning death and psychiatric drugs
D. the link that I just offered here is or is not an example of the type of post that you are referring to. If it is, why is it?
Lou
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
In reply to I apologize for digressing - Medication board?, posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 7:02:18
> This discussion began because several of us respectfully offered our concerns about the possible effect of some of Lou's posts on newcomers to Babble. We were, and are, concerned that newcombers who might benefit tremendously from the knowledge, support and understanding available here would be frightened away. I would very much like to see the discussion return to this important issue.
>
> TwinleafI'm concerned about the effect of fear on newcomers. How do you fight your way through fear? Can you use knowledge, support, and understanding to help you overcome Lou's posts? If so, maybe that will show newcomers one way to overcome their fear.
--
> I apologize for helping to allow this thread to drift away from its original theme.
>
> Does this conversation belong on the Medication board?
>
> - ScottIt would be fine to continue it there. Or, would you like to try out different ways of responding? That might be most appropriate here. For example:
> Very, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
Bob
Posted by SLS on May 14, 2013, at 10:44:06
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
I'll try that.
It sounds difficult, though.
- Scott
Posted by Twinleaf on May 14, 2013, at 10:58:01
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 10:36:01
I think most of us who are veterans here do not feel any personal fear about Lou's posts. I do not read them any more, not because they cause me any fear or distress, but because they are extremely repetitive and I do not think I can learn anything new from them. Newcomers will simply not have the knowledge that we have to avoid feeling possible fear or increased concern about using medication. I don't think there is a way for posters like me to share my detachment with any newcomers without being uncivil to Lou. I feel that a minimal degree of fair moderation would accomplish the goal of reassuring new posters in a way that we simply can't do - much as we might like to.
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 18:48:40
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 14, 2013, at 2:45:30
Lou does not instill fear in me. But to newbies isn't a good possibility that he may and when a person reads about a fear they may or may not already have. Wouldn't the negative posts on meds contribute to this fear? Might they leave and go elsewhere. Repeat to their docs what they read? Could the doctor of the new person advise not to frequent the site? I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought? Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
In reply to Re: feeling empowered » Dr. Bob, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 18:48:40
> Lou does not instill fear in me. But to newbies isn't a good possibility that he may and when a person reads about a fear they may or may not already have. Wouldn't the negative posts on meds contribute to this fear? Might they leave and go elsewhere. Repeat to their docs what they read? Could the doctor of the new person advise not to frequent the site? I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought? Phillipa
Friends,
Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking two or more psychotropic drugs that could cause death?
Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking more than one central nervous system depressant that death could be a result of that combination?
Would it not be supportive to warn people that are contemplating drugging their child concerning the aspect of the potential of life-ruining conditions that their child could get as a result of taking these drugs so that the parent could make amore-informed decision as to drug their child or not in collaboration with a psychiatrist/doctor? Would it not be supportive to warn others that are in withdrawal from these drugs that they could go into a mind altered state to be compelled to kill themselves and/or others?
Would it not be supportive to warn members that their condition could be worsened by taking these drugs?
Would it not be supportive to post educational material concerning the history of the development of psychotropic drugs?
Would it not be supportive to
Posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 22:53:49
In reply to Lou's response- » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
Lou Truly I don't share your feelings on this matter. I do know of those who have left this site as their pdocs said not to frequent sites that post fear. Hard enough for one to accept that they or a loved one may indeed need meds. Don't you feel it's a shame that some as they wish to appear strong suffer in silence for sometimes years before consulting a doctor. They finally make a commitment to themselves to try the med and then read something that causes them to possibly not give the med a chance to help them. Could this then possibly lead to the person giving up all hope? This would be a tragedy to me. That's how I feel. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 0:21:21
In reply to Re: Lou's response- » Lou Pilder, posted by Phillipa on May 14, 2013, at 22:53:49
> > What if you addressed your reply to other posters (and lurkers) instead of to Lou?
>
> I'll try that.
>
> It sounds difficult, though.
>
> - ScottI bet you could do it. For example, instead of:
> Very, very good reasoning, Lou. Now all you have left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
maybe:
> Lou makes a valid point. Now all he has left to do is to properly display the statistics that portray the risks for these things to happen. eHealthMe does NOT provide these.
--
> Newcomers will simply not have the knowledge that we have to avoid feeling possible fear or increased concern about using medication. I don't think there is a way for posters like me to share my detachment with any newcomers without being uncivil to Lou. I feel that a minimal degree of fair moderation would accomplish the goal of reassuring new posters in a way that we simply can't do - much as we might like to.
>
> TwinleafIt's too bad you feel powerless to reassure new posters. Maybe you could share your knowledge? Or explain how you detach without mentioning Lou?
> I kind of liked Dinah's idea of two separate boards one for those who do believe in meds & one for those who do not share this feeling? Then the newbie could decide which board would be best for them? Just a thought?
That does seem to be a common approach these days. Liberals watch liberal channels, conservatives watch conservative channels, and everyone's happy.
> Don't you feel it's a shame that some as they wish to appear strong suffer in silence for sometimes years before consulting a doctor. They finally make a commitment to themselves to try the med and then read something that causes them to possibly not give the med a chance to help them.
>
> PhillipaAnd then they read something that renews their hope (if they're not on an anti-med board), and they change their mind again.
Bob
Posted by Twinleaf on May 15, 2013, at 5:26:29
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 0:21:21
I really don't feel disempowered about this situation with Lou. I feel that I do offer encouragement, and what knowledge I have to other posters - particularly new ones. I am concerned about people who never even begin posting because they are frightened away by the negative messages in Lou's posts. I can't address them.
As moderator, you have power that we don't have: you can use the civility rules in an equal and fair way to ensure that Babble is welcoming for everyone. The way it is now, it is not welcoming and safe for newcomers either taking medications or planning to take them. Respectfully, Bob, you do have the power to make it both safe and welcoming here, if you choose to use it.
Posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 9:27:25
In reply to Lou's response- » Phillipa, posted by Lou Pilder on May 14, 2013, at 20:21:40
> Friends,
> Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking two or more psychotropic drugs that could cause death?That's what doctors are for. They know which drugs interact with each other adversely. Combining Zoloft with Parnate can cause a potentially fatal reaction called "serotonin syndrome". Yet, combining Zoloft with nortriptyline is usually safe and has saved lives by eradicating depression in individuals who would otherwise have committed suicide. Depression is a life-ruining illness.
> Would it not be supportive to warn those that are taking more than one central nervous system depressant that death could be a result of that combination?
I think that this would be supportive if one were to identify examples of such contraindicated combinations. Which combinations of CNS depressants are commonly used in psychiatry?
> Would it not be supportive to warn people that are contemplating drugging their child
I think most parents bring their children to see a doctor for treatment. It is the doctor who decides how to medicate a child. Personally, I find that the word "drugging" is a pejorative term.
> Would it not be supportive to warn members that their condition could be worsened by taking these drugs?
In what ways can psychotropic medications worsen their condition?
I think it would be supportive to warn people that a minority of patients will see their symptoms worsen transiently as a result of drug withdrawal.
I think one of the weaknesses of these talking points is the use of the word, "could". What isn't depicted here are the numerical values of the risks of these things to occur. They might not occur at all. Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, the word "could" as used here is virtually meaningless.
- Scott
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:08
In reply to Re: feeling empowered, posted by Twinleaf on May 15, 2013, at 5:26:29
> I really don't feel disempowered about this situation with Lou. I feel that I do offer encouragement, and what knowledge I have to other posters - particularly new ones. I am concerned about people who never even begin posting because they are frightened away by the negative messages in Lou's posts.
What about the people who do begin posting because they're reassured by your encouragement and knowledge? Do you feel Lou has more power to frighten than you have to reassure?
> As moderator, you have power that we don't have: you can use the civility rules in an equal and fair way to ensure that Babble is welcoming for everyone. The way it is now, it is not welcoming and safe for newcomers either taking medications or planning to take them. Respectfully, Bob, you do have the power to make it both safe and welcoming here, if you choose to use it.
No community will feel welcoming and safe to everyone. Whenever members of the community express opinions, those who disagree may feel unwelcome and unsafe. There continue to be newcomers here, however, so they must feel welcome and safe enough.
I wonder if more newcomers would feel welcome and safe if fewer old-timers said Babble was unwelcoming and unsafe.
Hmm, negative messages about Babble might frighten away people like negative messages about medication. So that's another way in which you and Lou may have something in common.
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
In reply to The word 'could'. » Lou Pilder, posted by SLS on May 15, 2013, at 9:27:25
> Personally, I find that the word "drugging" is a pejorative term.
>
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, the word "could" as used here is virtually meaningless.Scott,
Well done! My only reservation is with "meaningless". Somehow the way you addressed "drugging" seemed to me less, well, pejorative. What do you think about something like:
> Without statistics and the understanding of how to interpret them, it's hard to know how worried to be about the possibility that something "could" happen.
Bob
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
In reply to Re: The word 'could'., posted by Dr. Bob on May 15, 2013, at 22:58:15
That wouldn't really address it, would it?
How about if he said that he felt uncomfortable/distressed/angry etc. at the word "drugging"?
Or would this be something to report to you privately? How do you feel about the word "drugging"? Or, a useage that I find more of an issue, "drugging your children". Do you consider it civil for someone to ask a question about medications, and for someone to respond in terms of "drugging your children" along with comments about suicide, murder, and violence against groups of people? Doesn't that seem a bit, well, "accusing"? With or without a "could"? Wouldn't there even be a problem with accusing knowing the truthfulness of the statement? After all, unless you're going out for street drugs, no parent has the authority to "drug" their children.
How would you feel as a distraught mother approaching Babble for perhaps the first time for answers, and receiving an answer like that? Would you feel accused? Would you stick around Babble, no matter how much other posters tried to soften the impact?
I wouldn't.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:22:28
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » Dr. Bob, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:10:13
I think the idea should be considered the topic of a civility discussion separate from any issues with any particular poster. I strongly believe that "drugging your children" with or without "could" is inherently accusing, and unless parents are proceeding without a psychiatrist, inherently untruthful as well as accusing.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 11:30:49
In reply to Re: The word 'could'., posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 11:22:28
I agree. I've always had a visceral reaction to that phrase.
> I think the idea should be considered the topic of a civility discussion separate from any issues with any particular poster. I strongly believe that "drugging your children" with or without "could" is inherently accusing, and unless parents are proceeding without a psychiatrist, inherently untruthful as well as accusing.
Posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » Dinah, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 11:30:49
I know that if the topic ever came up, this would be the last place I'd ever look for answers. Knowing that I'd very likely be accused of drugging my kid, and potentially causing him to become a mass murderer. And I'm invested in Babble! Imagine how a casual poster or newcomer would feel!
And of course I'm guessing you and I and several others can join in the chorus of Dr. Bob's probable response. Likely his posting equivalent of "Don't let the door hit your rear on the way out." Hmmmm.... "If you don't think you'd like being accused of potentially turning your child into a mass murderer, Babble might not be the best place for you to ask questions like that." Does that sound right? I'd be delighted to have misjudged him.
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
Sounds about right to me. I'll never understand certain interpretations of self-expression that are apparently, allegedly, supposedly seen as civil here. Never, ever, ever.
When my now adult 'kid' was small, I drugged her for strep throat and for ear infections. I drugged my kid for chronic pain. I drugged her for vitamin and iron deficiencies. I drugged my kid for burns and abrasions on her skin. When she was 18, legal but still completely relying on me to help decide and to facilitate any kind of medical treatment, I highly encouraged her to drug herself with....[drum roll] a psychiatric medication when she had sudden, persistent suicidal ideation and depression. Since my insurance covered this drug and without me she really wouldn't have known it was available or how to get it (we were living in Europe at the time), I take responsibility for druggin' her that time, too. She, after a small adjustment since she was so sensitive to the 'drug' (prefer to call these medications, but...I'll go with the flow) felt vastly better within six weeks and has never had another suicidal thought in the 13 years since. She voluntarily chose when to stop drugging herself.
My daughter drugs her daughter for infections, pain, allergies and more. She does so as little as possible and trusts her own judgment to know when to do so, and when to enlist the help of a doctor to potentially prescribe certain drugs, and whether or not to give them to her daughter after weighing risks and benefits. I approve of and have assisted in this drugging of my granddaughter. She is a remarkably happy, healthy child who accepts a reasonable level of druggin' when presented to her (not old enough to decide too much yet, but she gets a say) and declines drugs when she feels better. She has a serious and mature appreciation of what grown-up and possibly dangerous tools drugs are, just as she does with hammers, the stove, and the controls on our cars - she leaves the tool-using, cooking, driving and drugging to her parents and me unless she is expressly told she may touch or use these tools, supervised. If she ever shows mental health symptoms just as alarming or painful as the physical ones she has been drugged for by the adults in her life who love and care for her, I would gladly support her parents' decision to drug her with a psychiatric 'drug' as well. I see this as balanced, attentive parenting and grandparenting, doing the best we can at each turn. Life is full of choices; they can go wrong but we must do the best we can with what we know at the time, especially for kids who can't so for themselves.
I wish medicine had advanced enough while I was a youngster so my doctor and parents had even known enough about my suffering with ADD to consider the **option** of druggin' me with some helpful drug. That way, I well may not have drugged myself with nicotine, caffeine and sometimes alcohol for decades trying to relieve symptoms.
I am proud of my drugging of my kid and her drugging of her kid. I feel the same about it as I do about my feeding her fruits and veggies and lots of water, teaching her to swim, or allowing her to ride a bike fast (without helmets, which were unheard of back in the day). She could have choked on a piece of carrot, slipped on a banana peel dropped on the floor and broken a bone, drowned, or cracked her head open, and yes, died, or killed me or herself after taking that drug, I suppose. Yet, I still feel this was all rationale, responsible parenting. I am sure I'd feel even stronger had my D. or gd had cancer, diabetes, severe asthma, allergy to bee stings, deep depression, schizophrenia, or anything else that could quickly be deadly.
It's as simple as this for me.
Proud drugger.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 19:36:36
In reply to Re: The word 'could'. » gardenergirl, posted by Dinah on May 16, 2013, at 18:24:06
>
> Hmmmm.... "If you don't think you'd like being accused of potentially turning your child into a mass murderer, Babble might not be the best place for you to ask questions like that." Does that sound right? I'd be delighted to have misjudged him.That's hilarious. And a bit sad.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 20:23:27
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
Posted by Phillipa on May 16, 2013, at 20:31:44
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
Excellent post!!!!
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 21:40:02
In reply to Well said. I hope you dropped the mic after that. (nm) » 10derheart, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 20:23:27
okay, gg, I give up already. Since I know that can't be a reference to Irish people (hardly your style) it must mean microphone....and how come you hope I dropped it?
To me, it means...oh, please tell me she shut up after that...finally!! But that's not your style either.
What cultural or linguistic expression have I missed out on? I'm usually pretty 'with it' for my...errr...mature level of life experience (!), so I bet I'm going to feel really dumb when you explain... :-(
Posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 22:15:43
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » gardenergirl, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 21:40:02
> To me, it means...oh, please tell me she shut up after that...finally!! But that's not your style either.Not at all. It's a good thing:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Drop%20The%20Mic"A phrase describing the action performed after getting the better of someone.
Calling someone out so hard that you just walk away indisputably victorious (See 8 Mile)"After serving someone, I just drop the mic, and walk away""
:)
gg
Posted by SLS on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:30
In reply to druggin' my kid » Dinah, posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 19:35:35
These are all fine points. You have me convinced.
Sometimes, it is difficult for me to completely ignore the context within which a phrase is used or the motivations and attitudes that I believe the author possesses. Of course, such beliefs would be difficult to prove, and are rather subjective. Still, I don't often see the word "medicating" used to depict an undesirable behavior. I more often see that the word "drugging" is used this way.
"He drugged me, then robbed me."
"He medicated me, then robbed me."
I'll try to be less prejudiced when I see the word "drugging" used.
- Scott
------------------------------------------------------
> Sounds about right to me. I'll never understand certain interpretations of self-expression that are apparently, allegedly, supposedly seen as civil here. Never, ever, ever.
>
> When my now adult 'kid' was small, I drugged her for strep throat and for ear infections. I drugged my kid for chronic pain. I drugged her for vitamin and iron deficiencies. I drugged my kid for burns and abrasions on her skin. When she was 18, legal but still completely relying on me to help decide and to facilitate any kind of medical treatment, I highly encouraged her to drug herself with....[drum roll] a psychiatric medication when she had sudden, persistent suicidal ideation and depression. Since my insurance covered this drug and without me she really wouldn't have known it was available or how to get it (we were living in Europe at the time), I take responsibility for druggin' her that time, too. She, after a small adjustment since she was so sensitive to the 'drug' (prefer to call these medications, but...I'll go with the flow) felt vastly better within six weeks and has never had another suicidal thought in the 13 years since. She voluntarily chose when to stop drugging herself.
>
> My daughter drugs her daughter for infections, pain, allergies and more. She does so as little as possible and trusts her own judgment to know when to do so, and when to enlist the help of a doctor to potentially prescribe certain drugs, and whether or not to give them to her daughter after weighing risks and benefits. I approve of and have assisted in this drugging of my granddaughter. She is a remarkably happy, healthy child who accepts a reasonable level of druggin' when presented to her (not old enough to decide too much yet, but she gets a say) and declines drugs when she feels better. She has a serious and mature appreciation of what grown-up and possibly dangerous tools drugs are, just as she does with hammers, the stove, and the controls on our cars - she leaves the tool-using, cooking, driving and drugging to her parents and me unless she is expressly told she may touch or use these tools, supervised. If she ever shows mental health symptoms just as alarming or painful as the physical ones she has been drugged for by the adults in her life who love and care for her, I would gladly support her parents' decision to drug her with a psychiatric 'drug' as well. I see this as balanced, attentive parenting and grandparenting, doing the best we can at each turn. Life is full of choices; they can go wrong but we must do the best we can with what we know at the time, especially for kids who can't so for themselves.
>
> I wish medicine had advanced enough while I was a youngster so my doctor and parents had even known enough about my suffering with ADD to consider the **option** of druggin' me with some helpful drug. That way, I well may not have drugged myself with nicotine, caffeine and sometimes alcohol for decades trying to relieve symptoms.
>
> I am proud of my drugging of my kid and her drugging of her kid. I feel the same about it as I do about my feeding her fruits and veggies and lots of water, teaching her to swim, or allowing her to ride a bike fast (without helmets, which were unheard of back in the day). She could have choked on a piece of carrot, slipped on a banana peel dropped on the floor and broken a bone, drowned, or cracked her head open, and yes, died, or killed me or herself after taking that drug, I suppose. Yet, I still feel this was all rationale, responsible parenting. I am sure I'd feel even stronger had my D. or gd had cancer, diabetes, severe asthma, allergy to bee stings, deep depression, schizophrenia, or anything else that could quickly be deadly.
>
> It's as simple as this for me.
>
> Proud drugger.
>
>
Posted by 10derheart on May 16, 2013, at 23:48:46
In reply to Re: Dropped the mic??? » 10derheart, posted by gardenergirl on May 16, 2013, at 22:15:43
That is so funny cuz the first thing I thought of was rap and the second thing was Eminem, (it mentions "8 Mile" - I love that movie, BTW, although it has some rough parts....)
which, come to think of it, in and of itself shows my age...
But seriously, I know you were complimenting me but I didn't see it as getting the better of anyone while writing it, but instead just trying to turn the phrases druggin', drugging, drug your child and so forth into something posters could maybe see differently, something perfectly ordinary in the scheme of daily life.I have bad visceral reactions to the use of the word like that, too, but then I started thinking, perhaps *I* am giving them the negative power, so then *I* can remove it, too. It's all in how you look at it.
You gotta drug who you gotta drug ;-)
Thanks for posting....I miss you.
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.