![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 17, 2011, at 20:26:59
Mr.Hsiung and his deputy,
In regards to your remindification from me.
Lou Pilderer policy, there is another outstanding not
Posted by hyperfocus on June 22, 2011, at 23:52:40
In reply to Lou's request to the administration-altstan, posted by Lou Pilder on June 17, 2011, at 20:26:59
It's been brought to my attention that in the opinion of poster Lou Pilder, a post I made on the Faith board allegedly has an antisemitic statement that can be used to incite violence against Jews. He has also asserted that my failure to answer a question posed to me, not withstanding his failure to answer a question I posed to him, is proof of my guilt. Furthermore that I and unnamed others on the Faith board have been participating in indoctrination against Judaism, and this indoctrination has proceeded without sanction by the administration. I have been asked by Lou to contribute to the ongoing discussion on this board. I find that an alarming number of threads on the Faith board eventually end with these discussions so I'm just taking the invitation Lou has given me to address his allegations and perhaps bring some resolution to this ongoing matter.
As Lou has said repeatedly, false allegations have been used as propaganda to incite violence against Jews. Therefore Lou I think you of all people should recognize how important it is to recognize false allegations against anyone or any community or people of any faith.
You claim in your opinion that I made an antisemitic statement in this post:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987791.htmlYou further claim my response to your allegation is not sufficient to demonstrate my innocence of this allegation:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987899.htmlYou claim that you have evidence of my guilt that somehow exists outside my assertion that I am not anti-semitic nor did I make an anti-semitic statement. You further claim that I have not answered a question you posed to me and such action indicts me as guilty of this allegation. You ignore my request for you to answer one of my questions before answering more of yours as irrelevant.
Lou I have answered all the questions you asked me in that thread and others in another thread and I have repeatedly said that I do not harbor any anti-semitic opinions. I asked you to respond to one of my questions on the veracity of your allegations but you refused to do so. You have refused to answer any question I have posed to you up to this point both in public and private communication. Therefore using the same reasoning you have applied to my actions should I not conclude that your refusal to answer my question demonstrates that your answer will prove your allegations false?
I really don't understand why you refuse to answer any of my questions so maybe you could explain your actions better. But could not people reading the thread in question think that you are not answering my questions because such answers would undermine the veracity of allegations you have made against me? Further could they not then think that you are not interested in the veracity of allegations you make against me and my community and people of my faith? If it is your goal to snuff out the match that can start a number of forest fires then how can this be accomplished if you refuse to provide any evidence or rationale beyond your own opinion for your allegations? For if you are to reject my assertion that I have no antisemitic opinion and refuse to answer any question about the relation of the teachings of Jesus Christ to anti-semitism then what recourse is left to me and other posters? What recourse is left to anyone who is targeted with allegations like these - should we be convicted on the opinion of the accuser alone?
The answer you have provided for me is that it is Jews who I am referring to in my statement about Jesus and the establishment. Apart from this not being my answer, this answer is ambiguous and illogical. AFAIK Jesus was a Jew as were his parents, other family, disciples etc. If it's your assertion then that Jesus was part of the establishment then this statement completely contradicts the assertion I made that all of the establishment hated Jesus, unless you are willing to claim the assertion that Mary and Peter et.al hated Jesus and Jesus hated himself. If the answer you provide to your own question leads to a contradiction then logically should we not find that answer to be false?
My answer to your question, if you had merely shown to me a willingness to engage in dialogue, is that certain Jews made up the establishment, not all. There were certain Jews who hated Jesus, certain disciples who betrayed him, and certain Roman soldiers who carried out his execution - this is part of the historical record. What is not part of the historical record is that all Jews hated Jesus. Yet this is the assertion you falsely accuse myself and others of making.
Your allegation against me and other Christians is that we somehow harbor hate towards Jews for what they did to Jesus and this leads to us making statements that foster anti-semitic violence. I'm sure in this world there are those Christians who harbor hate against Jews, just as I'm sure there are Jews who harbor hate against Christians, and Muslims who harbor hate towards Hindus...etc. But should we use the actions and opinions of certain individuals to be representative of all members of that faith? Is it your contention that all Jews believe that Christians harbor hate towards them because of the events surrounding the life and death of Jesus? If this is so then what is your evidence? If it is not so then what is your evidence? Surely I have a right to know why you have made these allegations against me and others?
AFAIK the most import virtue Jesus instructed his followers to have was forgiveness. When he was being nailed to the cross he pleaded that those individuals who were responsible for his suffering be forgiven. If you have evidence that Jesus instructed his followers to hate any group of people in this world, then I would certainly like to see it.
There is a lot of hate in this world, we all know, but there is a lot of injustice as well. I fear that I have been unjustly accused of terrible things and have unjustly been denied my right to defend myself against false allegations. Lou your actions towards me, perhaps unintentionally, have been very totalitarian in nature. You have assigned to yourself the position of victim, policeman, prosecutor, defense counsel, judge, jury, and gaoler. I fear now that tomorrow I will be walking down the street and a man of authority will subdue me, claim I stabbed to death an auto-mechanic in Luxembourg on the 18th of this month, bring me to court, try me, convict me, sentence me, and then personally see that I be punished and make restitution to the victims of my heinous act. In my nightmare despite my protestations that I have never been to Europe, nor harbor any homicidal intentions towards any profession there, and in fact have only just returned yesterday from a 2-week retreat in Gainesville, Fl. sponsored by the International Society of Social Phobics against Violence in the Low Countries, in which I was on the majority who voted to ban all sharp-edged cutlery from our homes to minimize the incidence of such instruments being used against in violence against tradesmen from this part of the world...in my nightmare this man tells me that I have no right to my own defence, that I have no right to ask him any questions that may reveal my innocence or guilt, that only his opinion will be used to determine my innocence or guilt and that at any rate it is obvious to those auto mechanics who are the victims of homicide that I am guilty.
Is this not a forest-fire that we both should look to snuff out?
Lou I have responded to all your public and private requests for dialogue and as a show of good-faith I have posted my views here as you requested. I'm sure you have a lot of questions and comments on my post but before you post those could you not show a tiny bit of good-faith towards me and other posters and answer the one question I have posed to you: Is anti-semitism compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ?
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2011, at 19:57:14
In reply to Re: Post with anti-semitic statements, posted by hyperfocus on June 22, 2011, at 23:52:40
> It's been brought to my attention that in the opinion of poster Lou Pilder, a post I made on the Faith board allegedly has an antisemitic statement that can be used to incite violence against Jews. He has also asserted that my failure to answer a question posed to me, not withstanding his failure to answer a question I posed to him, is proof of my guilt. Furthermore that I and unnamed others on the Faith board have been participating in indoctrination against Judaism, and this indoctrination has proceeded without sanction by the administration. I have been asked by Lou to contribute to the ongoing discussion on this board. I find that an alarming number of threads on the Faith board eventually end with these discussions so I'm just taking the invitation Lou has given me to address his allegations and perhaps bring some resolution to this ongoing matter.
>
> As Lou has said repeatedly, false allegations have been used as propaganda to incite violence against Jews. Therefore Lou I think you of all people should recognize how important it is to recognize false allegations against anyone or any community or people of any faith.
>
> You claim in your opinion that I made an antisemitic statement in this post:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987791.html
>
> You further claim my response to your allegation is not sufficient to demonstrate my innocence of this allegation:
> http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987899.html
>
> You claim that you have evidence of my guilt that somehow exists outside my assertion that I am not anti-semitic nor did I make an anti-semitic statement. You further claim that I have not answered a question you posed to me and such action indicts me as guilty of this allegation. You ignore my request for you to answer one of my questions before answering more of yours as irrelevant.
>
> Lou I have answered all the questions you asked me in that thread and others in another thread and I have repeatedly said that I do not harbor any anti-semitic opinions. I asked you to respond to one of my questions on the veracity of your allegations but you refused to do so. You have refused to answer any question I have posed to you up to this point both in public and private communication. Therefore using the same reasoning you have applied to my actions should I not conclude that your refusal to answer my question demonstrates that your answer will prove your allegations false?
>
> I really don't understand why you refuse to answer any of my questions so maybe you could explain your actions better. But could not people reading the thread in question think that you are not answering my questions because such answers would undermine the veracity of allegations you have made against me? Further could they not then think that you are not interested in the veracity of allegations you make against me and my community and people of my faith? If it is your goal to snuff out the match that can start a number of forest fires then how can this be accomplished if you refuse to provide any evidence or rationale beyond your own opinion for your allegations? For if you are to reject my assertion that I have no antisemitic opinion and refuse to answer any question about the relation of the teachings of Jesus Christ to anti-semitism then what recourse is left to me and other posters? What recourse is left to anyone who is targeted with allegations like these - should we be convicted on the opinion of the accuser alone?
>
> The answer you have provided for me is that it is Jews who I am referring to in my statement about Jesus and the establishment. Apart from this not being my answer, this answer is ambiguous and illogical. AFAIK Jesus was a Jew as were his parents, other family, disciples etc. If it's your assertion then that Jesus was part of the establishment then this statement completely contradicts the assertion I made that all of the establishment hated Jesus, unless you are willing to claim the assertion that Mary and Peter et.al hated Jesus and Jesus hated himself. If the answer you provide to your own question leads to a contradiction then logically should we not find that answer to be false?
>
> My answer to your question, if you had merely shown to me a willingness to engage in dialogue, is that certain Jews made up the establishment, not all. There were certain Jews who hated Jesus, certain disciples who betrayed him, and certain Roman soldiers who carried out his execution - this is part of the historical record. What is not part of the historical record is that all Jews hated Jesus. Yet this is the assertion you falsely accuse myself and others of making.
>
> Your allegation against me and other Christians is that we somehow harbor hate towards Jews for what they did to Jesus and this leads to us making statements that foster anti-semitic violence. I'm sure in this world there are those Christians who harbor hate against Jews, just as I'm sure there are Jews who harbor hate against Christians, and Muslims who harbor hate towards Hindus...etc. But should we use the actions and opinions of certain individuals to be representative of all members of that faith? Is it your contention that all Jews believe that Christians harbor hate towards them because of the events surrounding the life and death of Jesus? If this is so then what is your evidence? If it is not so then what is your evidence? Surely I have a right to know why you have made these allegations against me and others?
>
> AFAIK the most import virtue Jesus instructed his followers to have was forgiveness. When he was being nailed to the cross he pleaded that those individuals who were responsible for his suffering be forgiven. If you have evidence that Jesus instructed his followers to hate any group of people in this world, then I would certainly like to see it.
>
> There is a lot of hate in this world, we all know, but there is a lot of injustice as well. I fear that I have been unjustly accused of terrible things and have unjustly been denied my right to defend myself against false allegations. Lou your actions towards me, perhaps unintentionally, have been very totalitarian in nature. You have assigned to yourself the position of victim, policeman, prosecutor, defense counsel, judge, jury, and gaoler. I fear now that tomorrow I will be walking down the street and a man of authority will subdue me, claim I stabbed to death an auto-mechanic in Luxembourg on the 18th of this month, bring me to court, try me, convict me, sentence me, and then personally see that I be punished and make restitution to the victims of my heinous act. In my nightmare despite my protestations that I have never been to Europe, nor harbor any homicidal intentions towards any profession there, and in fact have only just returned yesterday from a 2-week retreat in Gainesville, Fl. sponsored by the International Society of Social Phobics against Violence in the Low Countries, in which I was on the majority who voted to ban all sharp-edged cutlery from our homes to minimize the incidence of such instruments being used against in violence against tradesmen from this part of the world...in my nightmare this man tells me that I have no right to my own defence, that I have no right to ask him any questions that may reveal my innocence or guilt, that only his opinion will be used to determine my innocence or guilt and that at any rate it is obvious to those auto mechanics who are the victims of homicide that I am guilty.
>
> Is this not a forest-fire that we both should look to snuff out?
>
> Lou I have responded to all your public and private requests for dialogue and as a show of good-faith I have posted my views here as you requested. I'm sure you have a lot of questions and comments on my post but before you post those could you not show a tiny bit of good-faith towards me and other posters and answer the one question I have posed to you: Is anti-semitism compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ?hf,
You wrote,[...There were certain Jews that xxx yyy...].
I am unsure as to what you are wanting others to understand, if anything, by you posting that here.
If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
A. Who were the {certain Jews} if you know?
B. If you know, how do you know that? Does it come from the bible that your group uses?
C. What purpose does it advance, by posting that here, if there is a purpose that you know?
D. Could the statement have the potential to arouse antisemitic feelings? If not, why not, if you know?
E. Could the statement have the potential to defame Jews, if you know?
F. If there were certain Jews that xxx yyy then, could there be (redacted by respondent).
Lou
Posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2011, at 20:53:34
In reply to Lou's request-psurtone » hyperfocus, posted by Lou Pilder on June 24, 2011, at 19:57:14
> > It's been brought to my attention that in the opinion of poster Lou Pilder, a post I made on the Faith board allegedly has an antisemitic statement that can be used to incite violence against Jews. He has also asserted that my failure to answer a question posed to me, not withstanding his failure to answer a question I posed to him, is proof of my guilt. Furthermore that I and unnamed others on the Faith board have been participating in indoctrination against Judaism, and this indoctrination has proceeded without sanction by the administration. I have been asked by Lou to contribute to the ongoing discussion on this board. I find that an alarming number of threads on the Faith board eventually end with these discussions so I'm just taking the invitation Lou has given me to address his allegations and perhaps bring some resolution to this ongoing matter.
> >
> > As Lou has said repeatedly, false allegations have been used as propaganda to incite violence against Jews. Therefore Lou I think you of all people should recognize how important it is to recognize false allegations against anyone or any community or people of any faith.
> >
> > You claim in your opinion that I made an antisemitic statement in this post:
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987791.html
> >
> > You further claim my response to your allegation is not sufficient to demonstrate my innocence of this allegation:
> > http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faith/20101230/msgs/987899.html
> >
> > You claim that you have evidence of my guilt that somehow exists outside my assertion that I am not anti-semitic nor did I make an anti-semitic statement. You further claim that I have not answered a question you posed to me and such action indicts me as guilty of this allegation. You ignore my request for you to answer one of my questions before answering more of yours as irrelevant.
> >
> > Lou I have answered all the questions you asked me in that thread and others in another thread and I have repeatedly said that I do not harbor any anti-semitic opinions. I asked you to respond to one of my questions on the veracity of your allegations but you refused to do so. You have refused to answer any question I have posed to you up to this point both in public and private communication. Therefore using the same reasoning you have applied to my actions should I not conclude that your refusal to answer my question demonstrates that your answer will prove your allegations false?
> >
> > I really don't understand why you refuse to answer any of my questions so maybe you could explain your actions better. But could not people reading the thread in question think that you are not answering my questions because such answers would undermine the veracity of allegations you have made against me? Further could they not then think that you are not interested in the veracity of allegations you make against me and my community and people of my faith? If it is your goal to snuff out the match that can start a number of forest fires then how can this be accomplished if you refuse to provide any evidence or rationale beyond your own opinion for your allegations? For if you are to reject my assertion that I have no antisemitic opinion and refuse to answer any question about the relation of the teachings of Jesus Christ to anti-semitism then what recourse is left to me and other posters? What recourse is left to anyone who is targeted with allegations like these - should we be convicted on the opinion of the accuser alone?
> >
> > The answer you have provided for me is that it is Jews who I am referring to in my statement about Jesus and the establishment. Apart from this not being my answer, this answer is ambiguous and illogical. AFAIK Jesus was a Jew as were his parents, other family, disciples etc. If it's your assertion then that Jesus was part of the establishment then this statement completely contradicts the assertion I made that all of the establishment hated Jesus, unless you are willing to claim the assertion that Mary and Peter et.al hated Jesus and Jesus hated himself. If the answer you provide to your own question leads to a contradiction then logically should we not find that answer to be false?
> >
> > My answer to your question, if you had merely shown to me a willingness to engage in dialogue, is that certain Jews made up the establishment, not all. There were certain Jews who hated Jesus, certain disciples who betrayed him, and certain Roman soldiers who carried out his execution - this is part of the historical record. What is not part of the historical record is that all Jews hated Jesus. Yet this is the assertion you falsely accuse myself and others of making.
> >
> > Your allegation against me and other Christians is that we somehow harbor hate towards Jews for what they did to Jesus and this leads to us making statements that foster anti-semitic violence. I'm sure in this world there are those Christians who harbor hate against Jews, just as I'm sure there are Jews who harbor hate against Christians, and Muslims who harbor hate towards Hindus...etc. But should we use the actions and opinions of certain individuals to be representative of all members of that faith? Is it your contention that all Jews believe that Christians harbor hate towards them because of the events surrounding the life and death of Jesus? If this is so then what is your evidence? If it is not so then what is your evidence? Surely I have a right to know why you have made these allegations against me and others?
> >
> > AFAIK the most import virtue Jesus instructed his followers to have was forgiveness. When he was being nailed to the cross he pleaded that those individuals who were responsible for his suffering be forgiven. If you have evidence that Jesus instructed his followers to hate any group of people in this world, then I would certainly like to see it.
> >
> > There is a lot of hate in this world, we all know, but there is a lot of injustice as well. I fear that I have been unjustly accused of terrible things and have unjustly been denied my right to defend myself against false allegations. Lou your actions towards me, perhaps unintentionally, have been very totalitarian in nature. You have assigned to yourself the position of victim, policeman, prosecutor, defense counsel, judge, jury, and gaoler. I fear now that tomorrow I will be walking down the street and a man of authority will subdue me, claim I stabbed to death an auto-mechanic in Luxembourg on the 18th of this month, bring me to court, try me, convict me, sentence me, and then personally see that I be punished and make restitution to the victims of my heinous act. In my nightmare despite my protestations that I have never been to Europe, nor harbor any homicidal intentions towards any profession there, and in fact have only just returned yesterday from a 2-week retreat in Gainesville, Fl. sponsored by the International Society of Social Phobics against Violence in the Low Countries, in which I was on the majority who voted to ban all sharp-edged cutlery from our homes to minimize the incidence of such instruments being used against in violence against tradesmen from this part of the world...in my nightmare this man tells me that I have no right to my own defence, that I have no right to ask him any questions that may reveal my innocence or guilt, that only his opinion will be used to determine my innocence or guilt and that at any rate it is obvious to those auto mechanics who are the victims of homicide that I am guilty.
> >
> > Is this not a forest-fire that we both should look to snuff out?
> >
> > Lou I have responded to all your public and private requests for dialogue and as a show of good-faith I have posted my views here as you requested. I'm sure you have a lot of questions and comments on my post but before you post those could you not show a tiny bit of good-faith towards me and other posters and answer the one question I have posed to you: Is anti-semitism compatible with the teachings of Jesus Christ?
>
> hf,
> You wrote,[...There were certain Jews that xxx yyy...].
> I am unsure as to what you are wanting others to understand, if anything, by you posting that here.
> If you could post answers to the following, then I could have the opportunity to respond accordingly.
> A. Who were the {certain Jews} if you know?
> B. If you know, how do you know that? Does it come from the bible that your group uses?
> C. What purpose does it advance, by posting that here, if there is a purpose that you know?
> D. Could the statement have the potential to arouse antisemitic feelings? If not, why not, if you know?
> E. Could the statement have the potential to defame Jews, if you know?
> F. If there were certain Jews that xxx yyy then, could there be (redacted by respondent).
> LouTo hf and all,
I am retracting the post above. There is no need to answer the questions. Please dsregard my request to consider the questions thatI have posted above.
Lou
Posted by hyperfocus on June 24, 2011, at 21:39:10
In reply to Re: Post with anti-semitic statements, posted by hyperfocus on June 22, 2011, at 23:52:40
There is a tradition from the Suffering Servant songs of Isaiah that the Messiah would be despised and rejected, and while the New Testament contains accounts of Jesus' condemnation by the Sanhedrin and Herod, there are no other independent accounts of Jesus' life that can verify these events. Thus it would be wrong for me to say that historically some Jews hated Jesus. Although Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah and some legal and political process between the Jews and Romans of the establishment ended with the crucifixion of Jesus, the exact relationship between Jesus and Jews is historically unknown as is how much influence the Jewish ruling class had on his conviction and execution. I apologize for making these unfounded historical claims and retract my statement that certain Jews hated Jesus.
The view of Jesus from Maimonides' "Epistle to Yemen" and in the writings by Jewish scholars in the later centuries must be taken in the context of the constant persecution the Jews were experiencing and also do not lend historicity to the claim that certain Jews hated Jesus.
"Ever since the time of Revelation, every despot or slave that has attained to power, be he violent or ignoble, has made it his first aim and his final purpose to destroy our law, and to vitiate our religion, by means of the sword, by violence, or by brute force, such as Amalek, Sisera, Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, Hadrian, may their bones be ground to dust, and others like them. This is one of the two classes which attempt to foil the Divine will.
The second class consists of the most intelligent and educated among the nations, such as the Syrians, Persians, and Greeks. These also endeavor to demolish our law and to vitiate it by means of arguments which they invent, and by means of controversies which they institute....
After that there arose a new sect which combined the two methods, namely, conquest and controversy, into one, because it believed that this procedure would be more effective in wiping out every trace of the Jewish nation and religion. It, therefore, resolved to lay claim to prophecy and to found a new faith, contrary to our Divine religion, and to contend that it was equally God-given. Thereby it hoped to raise doubts and to create confusion, since one is opposed to the other and both supposedly emanate from a Divine source, which would lead to the destruction of both religions. For such is the remarkable plan contrived by a man who is envious and querulous. He will strive to kill his enemy and to save his own life, but when he finds it impossible to attain his objective, he will devise a scheme whereby they both will be slain.
The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.
Daniel had already alluded to him when he presaged the downfall of a wicked one and a heretic among the Jews who would endeavor to destroy the Law, claim prophecy for himself, make pretenses to miracles, and allege that he is the Messiah, as it is written, "Also the children of the impudent among thy people shall make bold to claim prophecy, but they shall fall." (Daniel 11:14).[48]"
Posted by Lou Pilder on July 4, 2011, at 8:34:37
In reply to Lou's request to the administration-altstan, posted by Lou Pilder on June 17, 2011, at 20:26:59
> Mr.Hsiung and his deputy,
> In regards to your remindification from me.
> Lou Pilderer policy, there is another outstanding notMr. Hsiung and his deputy,
In regards to your reminder provision, there is another outstanding notification from me that (redacted by respondent)
Lou Pilder
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Administration | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.