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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 274 to 298 of 348. Go back in thread:
Posted by Phillipa on November 23, 2010, at 21:14:17
In reply to Re: redirecting Health to Social, posted by Dr. Bob on November 23, 2010, at 16:42:27
Good decision hoping it works out well. Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 4:15:27
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by muffled on November 9, 2010, at 18:26:02
> > > Mahatma Gandhi outlined several rules for civil resisters (or satyagrahi) in the time when he was leading India in the struggle for Independence from the British Empire. For instance, they were to express no anger, never retaliate, submit to the opponent's orders and assaults, submit to arrest by the authorities, surrender personal property when confiscated by the authorities but refuse to surrender property held in trust, refrain from swearing and insults (which are contrary to ahimsa), refrain from saluting the Union flag, and protect officials from insults and assaults even at the risk of the resister's own life.
> >
> > In the context of civil disobedience here:
> >
> > officials = me and deputies
> > insults and assaults = incivility
> > resisters = martyrs
>
> So, to me not all assaults are uncivil.
> Alot of what are being considered asaults are just discussion.
> Sometimes insults are just facts being pointed out.
> Sometimes resisters will choose to martyr themsleves, some times not.
> But resisters doesn't equal martyrs.
> If noone ever resisted, we women still wouldn't have a vote.
> If noone ever resisted, black people would still be treated as less than human. If noone resisted there would be no government policy changed for the better.
> etc.
> And I not trying to be disobedient here.
> I just want to effect change where I can.
> I have effected changes w/in the area I live.
> If people band together with a common goal policies can be changed.
> Its the squeaky wheel that gets oiled in this world.
> If everyone just sat at home and noone dared to speak up, this world would be a sorry place.
> I beleive that where I am in community, I have a voice, along with others in the community. Be it my municipality, school district, church etc."Martyrs" was from an exchange with Alex, and the equivalencies were from the context of civil disobedience.
IMO, the issue is how to effect change effectively. Civil disobedience can be effective at effecting change. Uncivil disobedience is ineffective at effecting change, at least here.
> I want to be involved here, but over the years I have concluded that I can't work w/Bob cuz he doesn't seem to work with others well. His communication skills, which are uber important in this scenario, seem to be lacking.
> I can't work w/someone who is a rougue and doesn't work WITH the group.
>
> Definition of ROGUE
> 1: resembling or suggesting a rogue elephant especially in being isolated, aberrant, dangerous, or uncontrollable <capsized by a rogue wave>I'm isolated, aberrant, uncontrollable, and perceived by some to be dangerous -- because I'm the administrator. A rogue poster is more like a rogue elephant than I am.
> If Bob could change his spots, I'd run w/him, but I have yet to see any real change in his overall behaviours.
> he has 'seemed' to work w/us before.
> Is this just the same thing? I don't know.
> So, ya, I have eternal faith in miracles, but alot of doubt about Bob's abilities to carry these ideas through.
> Not that Bob is bad. Bob is Bob. I even kinda like him to some extent. But I Can't abide his managment of this place.
> I still want to dream tho....4 of the ideas listed before would be up to me to carry through.
4 would be up to posters to carry through.
5 would be up to me or posters to carry through.I still want to dream, too.
Bob
Posted by Solstice on November 27, 2010, at 15:23:21
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 4:15:27
> 4 of the ideas listed before would be up to me to carry through.
> 4 would be up to posters to carry through.
> 5 would be up to me or posters to carry through.
>
> I still want to dream, too.
>
> Bob
Bob.. the post within which you wrote what's above did not include ideas which you reference here. I'm not sure I understand why you left specifics out, but it would be helpful to all of us if you would list the 13 specific ideas you're referring to, and which category you put them in.Thanks..
Solstice
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 0:01:08
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Dr. Bob, posted by Solstice on November 27, 2010, at 15:23:21
> > 4 of the ideas listed before would be up to me to carry through.
> > 4 would be up to posters to carry through.
> > 5 would be up to me or posters to carry through.
>
> it would be helpful to all of us if you would list the 13 specific ideas you're referring to, and which category you put them in.Scroll up:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20101014/msgs/968845.html
Bob
Posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2010, at 3:01:33
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on November 27, 2010, at 4:15:27
> Uncivil disobedience is ineffective at effecting change, at least here.
Civil obedience seems to fare similarly.
> I'm isolated, aberrant, uncontrollable, and perceived by some to be dangerous -- because I'm the administrator.
Ah yes, blame the role. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the PARTICULAR way in which YOU go about things.
> A rogue poster is more like a rogue elephant than I am.
In your opinion.
Posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:25:04
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by alexandra_k on November 29, 2010, at 3:01:33
> > I'm isolated, aberrant, uncontrollable, and perceived by some to be dangerous -- because I'm the administrator.
>
> Ah yes, blame the role. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the PARTICULAR way in which YOU go about things.Well, I guess that's possible, too.
Bob
Posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 12:51:58
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on November 29, 2010, at 3:25:04
> > > I'm isolated, aberrant, uncontrollable, and perceived by some to be dangerous -- because I'm the administrator.
> >
> > Ah yes, blame the role. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the PARTICULAR way in which YOU go about things.
>
> Well, I guess that's possible, too.
>
> Bob* I guess...
Anyhow, I don't think you horrible Bob :(
"I'm isolated, aberrant, uncontrollable, and perceived by some to be dangerous -- because I'm the administrator. A rogue poster is more like a rogue elephant than I am."I think I meant in the context that when you away awhile and then you come in slapping blocks around.
Posters going off is usu in context of an ongoing interaction, so its not necc unexpected.
Also, we get a chance to know posters and their habits, so when they do occasionally go off, well then we just know thats what they do, cuz they been hurt, and we just adapt.
See eg, at a place where I post, there is one very hurt poster, and she goes off from time to time, but we know her, and know of her hurt. And over time she has come to trust that we will NOT run away when she goes off. So she has been able to open up more, which scares her, she goes off some, we say its ok, we still here, we understand, and she chills.
She does NOT get rejected. She has only been (I think, it must be done via email) blocked(or maybe she just chooses to stay away?) when her behaviour has been very very harsh.
But see, this is what can happen when you develop a community that gets to know each other, and trust each other more. Real healing can take place. But we have to be able to allow for differences in people.
I spose bob will just say, well, then don't come here...:(
But I think for many of us, 'in the old days', the sense of community was what made this place so special....
but its gone now.
Bob broke trust.
I dunno how you can get it back bob?
But I will say that the long blocks are felt be so many to be wrong, why do you not see that????
Why do you not see that *timely* warnings would be appropriate, not ancient ones.
I know many seem content with the status quo, but I also know that many have left :(
I know that babble is still NOT the same caring place it was.
I dunno how to get that back.
I just dunno.
But I miss those days :(
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 0:11:53
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 12:51:58
> But I will say that the long blocks are felt be so many to be wrong, why do you not see that????
I think he might. I think that's why he has proposed setting up a Council of Commuity posters that can shorten blocks. But he can't set it up unless there are at least five people here who are willing to serve and the Community is willing to support them as they forge that new ground. I hope it happens.
Solstice
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 0:56:42
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » muffled, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 0:11:53
> > But I will say that the long blocks are felt be so many to be wrong, why do you not see that????
>
> I think he might. I think that's why he has proposed setting up a Council of Commuity posters that can shorten blocks. But he can't set it up unless there are at least five people here who are willing to serve and the Community is willing to support them as they forge that new ground. I hope it happens.
>
> Solstice*hmmmm, I have yet to see any real sign that he has changed his spots.....
He has 'appeared' to B4......
Nope, I remain quite unconvinced that those spots have changed much at all...
And for me....'shorten' doesn't cut it.....
WTF does shorten mean?...?...?....
"only" 3 wks vs 3 months???....still much too long IMHO...
Maybe some will stand up...but not me....I still don't trust the old bobmeister....
we just don't see eye to eye attall.
I feel like his mother.
I have an odd affection towards this wayward child of mine.....but I sure do not understand him, and he is an adult, so i can't tell him what to do, but he is still like a teen and he still doesn't listen to his ol ma....
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 8:01:51
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 0:56:42
> > I think he might. I think that's why he has proposed setting up a Council of Commuity posters that can shorten blocks. But he can't set it up unless there are at least five people here who are willing to serve and the Community is willing to support them as they forge that new ground. I hope it happens.
> >
> > Solstice
>
> *hmmmm, I have yet to see any real sign that he has changed his spots.....
> He has 'appeared' to B4......
> Nope, I remain quite unconvinced that those spots have changed much at all...
> And for me....'shorten' doesn't cut it.....
> WTF does shorten mean?...?...?....
> "only" 3 wks vs 3 months???....still much too long IMHO...
I understand that if you're the one being blocked.. then 3 weeks is too long.. but in the big scheme of things, I don't think you'd be happy with no moderation here. Really.I'm wondering if you might respond "Well of course I want moderation - - just not so MUCH moderation." And that's where 3 weeks vs 3 months becomes significant. 3 weeks IS 'some.' It's not 'so much' like 3 months is 'so much.'
I think there's a pendulum effect from the unbelievably long blocks.
Sol.
Posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 10:43:45
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » muffled, posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 8:01:51
> > > I think he might. I think that's why he has proposed setting up a Council of Commuity posters that can shorten blocks. But he can't set it up unless there are at least five people here who are willing to serve and the Community is willing to support them as they forge that new ground. I hope it happens.
> > >
> > > Solstice
> >
> > *hmmmm, I have yet to see any real sign that he has changed his spots.....
> > He has 'appeared' to B4......
> > Nope, I remain quite unconvinced that those spots have changed much at all...
> > And for me....'shorten' doesn't cut it.....
> > WTF does shorten mean?...?...?....
> > "only" 3 wks vs 3 months???....still much too long IMHO...
>
>
> I understand that if you're the one being blocked.. then 3 weeks is too long.. but in the big scheme of things, I don't think you'd be happy with no moderation here. Really.
>
> I'm wondering if you might respond "Well of course I want moderation - - just not so MUCH moderation." And that's where 3 weeks vs 3 months becomes significant. 3 weeks IS 'some.' It's not 'so much' like 3 months is 'so much.'
>
> I think there's a pendulum effect from the unbelievably long blocks.
>
> Sol.For me, I question exactly what the blocks accomplish.
I agree, short ones to give a person time to chill and rethink, and to give other posters a chance to see and post supportively(there can be a time lag)and try and help.
Yes, sometimes a block is needed.
But sometimes it is not.
And like I say, I don't think long blocks serve any purpose other than being punitive.
But I guess thats just my thots, cuz I don't truly understand people...
At some point, I may change my mind and choose to help.
But not yet.
Posted by Solstice on December 4, 2010, at 19:06:51
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by muffled on December 4, 2010, at 10:43:45
> For me, I question exactly what the blocks accomplish.
> I agree, short ones to give a person time to chill and rethink, and to give other posters a chance to see and post supportively(there can be a time lag)and try and help.
> Yes, sometimes a block is needed.
> But sometimes it is not.
> And like I say, I don't think long blocks serve any purpose other than being punitive.You hit that nail right on the head there. The long blocks ARE punitive. And I personally don't see them serving any constructive purpose. Very short blocks that are applied quickly are more likely (I believe) to serve Bob's stated purposes.
> But I guess thats just my thots, cuz I don't truly understand people...You may understand more than you give yourself credit for...
Sol.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:24:39
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by muffled on December 2, 2010, at 12:51:58
> See eg, at a place where I post, there is one very hurt poster, and she goes off from time to time, but we know her, and know of her hurt. And over time she has come to trust that we will NOT run away when she goes off. So she has been able to open up more, which scares her, she goes off some, we say its ok, we still here, we understand, and she chills.
I'm glad she has that place. I don't know if that's realistic for this place. For example, new people wouldn't know her or of her hurt and might run away.
> Why do you not see that *timely* warnings would be appropriate
I'm not here all the time. Posters are. From whom is it more realistic to expect timely warnings? From whom might people prefer to receive warnings?
Bob
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 11:19:06
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:24:39
> I'm not here all the time. Posters are. From whom is it more realistic to expect timely warnings? From whom might people prefer to receive warnings?
>
> BobIt would depend on the individual as to which they would prefer, fellow posters or Administration. I don't think blanket assumptions can be made either way.
I'm not sure that it's unrealistic to expect a timely response from a board's administration. It is sometimes pragmatic to recognize that such expectations may not be met, and that poster intervention is more likely to be timely.
Unfortunately poster warnings are about as useful as your warnings would be if you didn't block. I can warn till I'm blue in the face. I don't have any power to do anything more than talk. Posters haven't got the power. Only you and Racer do.
Sometimes the time lag before someone with the power to intervene shows up is longer than I can tolerate. That's my issue, I suppose. But I have limited ways to resolve it.
Posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 11:24:56
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 2:24:39
> I'm not here all the time. Posters are. From whom is it more realistic to expect timely warnings? From whom might people prefer to receive warnings?
Moreover, posters post here in the belief that it is a moderated board. Many people come here to have supportive and educational discussions about medication, therapy, and other mental health related issues. Many people prefer not to be involved in conflict. I think it's a reasonable expectation to believe that Administration will handle the conflict so that posters can be involved in the stated purpose of the site. At one time, I think you wrote something along those lines. The best of both worlds?
I think I agreed with you then.
So what is it now, if not the best of both worlds?
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 16:25:30
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dinah on December 5, 2010, at 11:24:56
> Unfortunately poster warnings are about as useful as your warnings would be if you didn't block. I can warn till I'm blue in the face. I don't have any power to do anything more than talk. Posters haven't got the power.
Friends don't have the power to compel, but they may not be as powerless as they feel.
> Moreover, posters post here in the belief that it is a moderated board. Many people come here to have supportive and educational discussions about medication, therapy, and other mental health related issues. Many people prefer not to be involved in conflict. I think it's a reasonable expectation to believe that Administration will handle the conflict so that posters can be involved in the stated purpose of the site. At one time, I think you wrote something along those lines.
It's still reasonable, and IMO simpler, to allow the administration to moderate. But maybe Babble's growing up and ready to take more responsibility for itself.
Bob
Posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 22:51:36
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on December 5, 2010, at 16:25:30
>But maybe Babble's growing up and ready to take more responsibility for itself.
Oh Bob. Babble grew up years ago and is now very old and tired.
Posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 23:11:14
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 22:51:36
Now the Captain called me to his bed
He fumbled for my hand
"Take these silver bars," he said
"I'm giving you command."
"Command of what, there's no one here
There's only you and me --
All the rest are dead or in retreat
Or with the enemy."
"Complain, complain, that's all you've done
Ever since we lost
If it's not the Crucifixion
Then it's the Holocaust."
"May Christ have mercy on your soul
For making such a joke
Amid these hearts that burn like coal
And the flesh that rose like smoke."
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2010, at 23:25:00
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on December 5, 2010, at 22:51:36
> > But maybe Babble's growing up and ready to take more responsibility for itself.
>
> Oh Bob. Babble grew up years ago and is now very old and tired.So not too young to take more responsibility for itself, but too old?
Bob
Posted by sigismund on December 8, 2010, at 5:48:28
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities, posted by Dr. Bob on December 7, 2010, at 23:25:00
I've always thought that, all things considered and allowing for the ambiguity of the medium, people on Babble have always treated each other pretty well.
Your civility standards are much higher than mine.
I understand you have wanted to hose down the fire before it gets out of control, albeit that any strategy will have unintended consequences.
If you are looking for a way to use the hose a little less, I'm all for it and will do what I can to cooperate.
I can't Babblemail people and tell them how to rephrase though.
I'm reasonably sure some would not forgive that and anyway it would be completely unsuccessful.
Posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2010, at 23:57:50
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on December 8, 2010, at 5:48:28
> I understand you have wanted to hose down the fire before it gets out of control, albeit that any strategy will have unintended consequences.
>
> If you are looking for a way to use the hose a little less, I'm all for it and will do what I can to cooperate.Thanks, would you consider serving on some kind of Elders Council?
Bob
Posted by sigismund on December 12, 2010, at 12:39:51
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » sigismund, posted by Dr. Bob on December 9, 2010, at 23:57:50
>Thanks, would you consider serving on some kind of Elders Council?
Goodness!
That would mean I'd have to stand in an election?
No negative campaigning?
Better still, no campaigning at all!
(I can see the advantage of that.)
But then committee meetings, or things like them....I'd consider it, yes, Bob.
Posted by Solstice on December 12, 2010, at 15:37:35
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Dr. Bob, posted by sigismund on December 12, 2010, at 12:39:51
Sigi - are you okay with serving as the result of a campaign and election? It might be important for the community to know who all we have here who would be willing to serve on a Community Council by campaign + elections.
Solstice
> >Thanks, would you consider serving on some kind of Elders Council?
>
> Goodness!
>
> That would mean I'd have to stand in an election?
> No negative campaigning?
> Better still, no campaigning at all!
> (I can see the advantage of that.)
> But then committee meetings, or things like them....
>
> I'd consider it, yes, Bob.
Posted by sigismund on December 12, 2010, at 21:13:53
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » sigismund, posted by Solstice on December 12, 2010, at 15:37:35
This is with the vote not made public?
I sure wouldn't be campaigning...then again I can think of some nifty slogans....I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Posted by Solstice on December 12, 2010, at 21:28:20
In reply to Re: realistic possibilities » Solstice, posted by sigismund on December 12, 2010, at 21:13:53
> This is with the vote not made public?
Well.. my understansding of Bob's idea is for people who want to serve on Council to campaign (civilly) - I guess announcing their candidacy and stating their views on blocks? Then, after campaigning with however many others want to be on Council, a vote would be held. Bob says he will not make the vote numbers public - but would simply announce the 'winners' - which would be the five a the top of the heap.
> I sure wouldn't be campaigning...then again I can think of some nifty slogans....I will show you fear in a handful of dust.So - does this mean that you are willing to serve on Council - but only if you are put in place by some means other than campaigning and being elected?
Solstice.
ps - what does your last sentence there mean?
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