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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 6 of 6. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Nadezda on June 21, 2009, at 18:25:21
Maybe if we could communicate more supportively about block--or at least figure out what, exactly is so painful about blocks--, each of us individually wouldn't feel so bad about them. Part of what's bad is feeling that people don't like or value us, or that we looked down on-- for me, anyway. That I've been "bad" and everyone must be thinking that I;m so to speak an insensitive j**k, too aggressive, arrogant, harsh, or otherwise mean and unkind. Maybe, though, if we talked through what blocks mean to us, and how we see people who've been blocked, at least we could feel that while we may have hurt someone, temporarily, we're not pariahs.
I find that the worst part about a block is that I can't be reassured that I'm still part of the community, and that people still are able to respect or want my participation. Now, of course, people may be angry or offended or put off by me-- or by some people-- or some people occasionally-- but realistically we all have the feeling at times that we've haven't been sufficiently kind or insightful-- and that others will read our posts and think badly of us. Maybe I should speak for myself and say that I, at least, feel that way.
It's just, for me, that a block or PBC reinforces that not only am I disliking myself at that moment- but others may be disliking me too.
Maybe if we realized that we're all in this together-- and that when others get blocked we feel a lot of empathy and are looking forward-- generally-- to the person's return-- it would mitigate the hurtfulness of the block.
I do wish the chat were more active-- because that's one way that blocked people can still be in touch. I know some people don't like chat-- but still-- at least it is a place to reconnect.
And I know that some of us aren't entirely fond of some others of us-- or find our posts frustrating or not sympatico-- I guess I sort of feel that that itself is hard to accept-- somehow-- irrationally-- but these are things we could work on, and feel stronger about-- rather than being driven away from a place that has meaning.
Maybe also we could figure out how better to support one another when someone is blocked, or we're concerned that someone may be blocked.
Just rambling, I guess. I just can't figure out why blocks are so hurtful-- to me, anyway-- when I'm pretty self-critical and feel that I posted the wrong thing frequently anyway.
Nadezda
Posted by Phillipa on June 21, 2009, at 22:05:40
In reply to We could talk more abt handling blocks better..., posted by Nadezda on June 21, 2009, at 18:25:21
I guess back to same old think in real life people all don't like one another but they may argue but solve the problems between themselves so more time for this to happen on the board. Phillipa
Posted by seldomseen on June 22, 2009, at 7:50:37
In reply to We could talk more abt handling blocks better..., posted by Nadezda on June 21, 2009, at 18:25:21
My biggest and continuing contention is that there should be no escalation of block length. One week is preferable, two weeks should be the maximum in my opinion.
It's long enough to discourage trolling and flaming, and to allow for cool downs, but not so long that people feel permanently separated from the community.
I also think blocks should reserved for blatant (I know, define blatant) ad hominem attacks on either administration or another poster.
As far as ensuring that a blocked poster feels welcomed to return, or is still valued by the community, I personally think that is up to the community and not the administration. While a blocked poster can not post, they certainly can read. Posts of support for a blocked poster, reassurance of their importance and contribution here should fall on us. I personally think that a line or two from posters saying "Sorry you're blocked, looking forward to your return" would mean a lot more than a line from Dr. Bob in the blocking post.
Just my thoughts.
Seldom.
Posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 9:16:32
In reply to Re: We could talk more abt handling blocks better..., posted by seldomseen on June 22, 2009, at 7:50:37
I would hope that support for the poster who may have been feeling hurt would also be given.
I think the problem is that blocks are the only way Dr. Bob has of ensuring that site guidelines are followed. If someone violates civility guidelines after being warned, Dr. Bob's only way to give the civility guidelines any meaning at all is to block. If the poster chooses to do this repeatedly, the blocks escalate.
Perhaps in part they escalate because Dr. Bob has limited time, and prefers not to go through the sequence every two weeks. (Just guessing). Perhaps they have something to do with the fact that civility guideline violations are often extremely disruptive to a board. Dr. Bob wants this to be a place for support and education. Although he values each and every poster, his responsibility might need to be for the board as a whole.
I say Dr. Bob, because deputies do not set block caps. However, I have to say that I am not in favor of limiting blocks to a week or two. For example, if one poster tends to be irritated by a second poster's posting tyle, and tends to post negative things about another poster, is it fair to the second poster to make that possibility occur every two weeks? If I were the second poster, I would leave Babble, and thus be effectively blocked.
No one speaks of those effective blocks, but I only recently saw someone leave Babble without making any statement of leaving, but obviously after feeling hurt by posts. The civility guidelines are designed to minimize those effective peer blockings.
Subtle incivilities can be as hurtful as blatant incivilities, as you may have noticed. Without blocks, the civility system would be toothless and worthless. Incivilities in response to perceived incivility are just as disruptive to board stability and often lead to escalation and taking sides.
Dr. Bob has his reasons for the current system, and IMO, solutions that do not address those issues will not be well received by him. Solutions that address those issues satisfactorily and lead to fewer blocks will likely be happily received.
I have *always* been in favor of reducing the impact of blocks. I like that blocked posters can chat and receive babblemail, and I offer the possibility that sending babblemail unless they are uncivil on babblemail may also be good. Separating babblemail incivilities from board incivilities might be able to be done?
I have always objected to the idea of disappearing posts and behind the scenes giving of blocks and pbc's. I think it is crazymaking. But it seems to be the generally accepted internet practice now. It may be time to reopen that discussion, since posters seem to be distressed at the shame of on board administration. Not that I believe there ought to be any shame, though I certainly understand it. I had my post deleted and was privately warned, at a board that has nothing to do with mental health. My warning and post removal had nothing to do with civility, but was about what subject matter was pertinent to the board. I was definitely ashamed, even though it was done in a lovely manner, and even though I replied with a great deal of appreciation for the clarification to the moderator who contacted me. So I do understand. But that does bring up another point of invisible moderation. I would not have made that error if I knew how board guidelines were interpreted, and that is impossible to do with off board admin actions and disappearing posts.
I'm not trying to squelch ideas. I'm just trying to add a different dimension.
Posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 10:55:23
In reply to Re: We could talk more abt handling blocks better., posted by Dinah on June 22, 2009, at 9:16:32
Thanks so much for the responses, Phillipa, Seldom, and Dinah.
I agree with Seldom and others, that except in the case of repeated and blatant (we could come up with some functional definition, even if it would also create disagreements in practice) violations of civility, blocks should be limited to a short period-- I hate to cause more headaches for Bob-- but this seems too important not to work on solving.
With the long blocks, people not only get really hurt and are deprived of support and companionship, but feel like pariahs where they looked for support and acceptance-- and that, to me, is unacceptable. Where people repeatedly hurt others-- maybe it becomes necessary. But it would be rare, I hope.
I was just thinking that we could possibly set up some more safety nets-- I think allowing babblemail is a great idea-- and one that seems to be not only just, but easy to implement. I hope Bob seriously considers your suggestion, Dinah.
Even a discussion of how feelings of shame and self-reproach make blocks unbearable, when they could be sad or hurtful but not really damaging-- might help people feel less alone and pained. At least I was thinking that if we did that we could--if we're blocked or PCBed-- remember or feel that others were pulling for us. It could take some of the focus off Bob--who really isn't involved in these things very much, but who seems to be on many posters' minds. I wish, too, that we feel more of a connection to the deputies-- who are sometimes seen as hurtful and abandoning-- or rejecting--and harsh-- when I can only imagine that PBCing and blocking must be rather painful and awkward for them, too. And they are after all posters themselves-- and as concerned and caring too-- I just regret that everyone else's concern and empathy with the hurtfulness of being blocked is forgotten-- and the imagined contempt or dislike of Bob, the deputies, and others becomes so intense-- And it seemed that if we made that support by us "bystanders" more palpable, it might have some effect.
I was thinking we might create not only a sense-- but some mechanisms for counteracting these feelings-- maybe buddies-- as we used to have for checking out posts-- or something more than the formulaic statement about "this doesn't mean I don't like you..." etc-- which to me doesn't exactly radiate warmth and support..
This may not be possible--and a discussion may not be possible-- or help much. I just feel that blocks are experienced as much worse than they need to be, however much one is deprived of companionship and the ability to interact-- I do think the babblemail option and chat could really help.
And I know that many are simply discouraged and too angry to rethink this-- but I just regret that there's been so much pain caused-- and that there isn't more we can do to mitigate it in the future.
Nadezda
Posted by Amelia_in_StPaul on June 22, 2009, at 14:21:52
In reply to Re: We could talk more abt handling blocks better., posted by Nadezda on June 22, 2009, at 10:55:23
Nadezda, these are all great ideas. You have really taken a wise-minded approach to these sticky issues (don't know/can't remember if you ever tried DBT, but in DBT-speak, wise-minded means balancing emotional mind and rational mind to come up with what works effectively).
Phillipa, Seldom, and Dinah--all great inputs too!
> Thanks so much for the responses, Phillipa, Seldom, and Dinah.
>
> I agree with Seldom and others, that except in the case of repeated and blatant (we could come up with some functional definition, even if it would also create disagreements in practice) violations of civility, blocks should be limited to a short period-- I hate to cause more headaches for Bob-- but this seems too important not to work on solving.
>
> With the long blocks, people not only get really hurt and are deprived of support and companionship, but feel like pariahs where they looked for support and acceptance-- and that, to me, is unacceptable. Where people repeatedly hurt others-- maybe it becomes necessary. But it would be rare, I hope.
>
> I was just thinking that we could possibly set up some more safety nets-- I think allowing babblemail is a great idea-- and one that seems to be not only just, but easy to implement. I hope Bob seriously considers your suggestion, Dinah.
>
> Even a discussion of how feelings of shame and self-reproach make blocks unbearable, when they could be sad or hurtful but not really damaging-- might help people feel less alone and pained. At least I was thinking that if we did that we could--if we're blocked or PCBed-- remember or feel that others were pulling for us. It could take some of the focus off Bob--who really isn't involved in these things very much, but who seems to be on many posters' minds. I wish, too, that we feel more of a connection to the deputies-- who are sometimes seen as hurtful and abandoning-- or rejecting--and harsh-- when I can only imagine that PBCing and blocking must be rather painful and awkward for them, too. And they are after all posters themselves-- and as concerned and caring too-- I just regret that everyone else's concern and empathy with the hurtfulness of being blocked is forgotten-- and the imagined contempt or dislike of Bob, the deputies, and others becomes so intense-- And it seemed that if we made that support by us "bystanders" more palpable, it might have some effect.
>
> I was thinking we might create not only a sense-- but some mechanisms for counteracting these feelings-- maybe buddies-- as we used to have for checking out posts-- or something more than the formulaic statement about "this doesn't mean I don't like you..." etc-- which to me doesn't exactly radiate warmth and support..
>
> This may not be possible--and a discussion may not be possible-- or help much. I just feel that blocks are experienced as much worse than they need to be, however much one is deprived of companionship and the ability to interact-- I do think the babblemail option and chat could really help.
>
> And I know that many are simply discouraged and too angry to rethink this-- but I just regret that there's been so much pain caused-- and that there isn't more we can do to mitigate it in the future.
>
> Nadezda
This is the end of the thread.
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