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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 165 to 189 of 222. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 15:55:10
In reply to Blocking formula, posted by Sigismund on March 1, 2009, at 14:05:15
> This is the first time in a while that the blocking formula was used.
Hmmm, I think Dr. Bob almost always uses it. Maybe even "always."
I use it all the time when I have to block someone. In a way.
I use it, then if to me, taking into consideration all the factors, and all the gray areas I might be struggling with (e.g., was the person 'provoked?" What IS 'provoked?" How many PBCs, say in a day or two, a week, etc., warrant a block? Two? Three? One? - say if the person is particularly uncivil? [Whatever that means...]) the number of weeks appears reasonable, I follow it.
Other times, I will *reduce* the length, despite what it says, as my gut just can't see/justify the number it shows me. (I would NEVER increase the length - ever.) I choose some shorter length and notify Dr. Bob that I was agonizing over the "right" number of weeks, to have him take a look. To me, the formula is hardly the perfect solution. It IS better than the old method of doubling, than doubling again. I didn't care for that as it led to lengthy blocks so very quickly in some cases. I have come to believe there is no perfect solution. As long as I know I am factoring in compassion for posters, I can be at relative peace with myself as a deputy, and I just make the best choice I can in each case. Maybe this approach fuels a perception of inconsistency? I don't know. I rarely know what is meant by that unless it's spelled out or examples are given. I think....unless we find a software program (obviously a non-human technological tool) that scans the boards and applies requests to be civil and blocks itself, with zero human input, there will be *some* form of inconsistency people can point to in what deputies do, over time. We discuss and discuss and worry and try so hard to balance being consistent with being fair with being responsive to posters different situations.....and well, it's tough.
I don't think that is Dr. Bob's way of looking at the formula. I think I've seen that he likes to use it - period. I could be mistaken, but I think that's because in developing this tool, he has already factored in the things needed to be factored in - things that in his view ought to increase or decrease the length - by having all the various boxes to check, or not. Perhaps he's able to be at peace with that, and is more rational about it, and I am still more emotional?
Dr. Bob doesn't require us to use it exclusively at this time. We can choose to use it or not. I think he allows this out of respect, and the desire to not want to "force" deputies to take an action they don't feel is right in a given situation. My belief is he just wants us to be reasonable and we may always defer to him if we are unsure or simply don't want to make the decision.
I hate, hate, hate blocking people. It takes me - sometimes - not minutes but hours (maybe even days) to decide what to do in a case where prior practice, number of recent PBCs, etc., really point me to no choice but a block. (And I'm not even talking about the times where the choice is one more PBC OR a block - those are particularly distressing to me as I tend to see both sides and become a little 'stuck') I almost always consult any other deputy available. This is extrememly helpful - in the sense of emtional support and that 2 or 3 heads are better than one. We all can get tunnel vision, and trapped in a rut and miss the forest for the trees, etc. Sometimes they are also not sure, but usually offer their unique view and suggestion. Then I decide. If my posting name is going on something, I have to be able to tolerate my own decision within the framework of integrity and fairness as I see it. It's no fun, and almost never simple, except maybe in the case of posting while blocked. Not that I have no emotional reaction to those posters - I do. But there, as long as I am acting as a deputy, and have agreed to do deputy duties like blocking sometimes, the rule is pretty cut and dried, without that, "but what about....[insert variables]"
My points here are to say, yes, the formula does get used - at least by me and Deputy Racer. I think Dinah does not use it. And secondly, just to try and provide some insight into me as a deputy and a person, dealing with consequences of uncivil posts and one aspect of my "job." It's the least favorite part - in fact, it's not a favorite at all. I believe in blocking as I can't figure out any other method that I can see being better for overall harmony and support for the entire Babble community. I am a big believer in actions having consequences, and in following through - IRL and here. But I know being blocked absolutely s**** for (most) posters, and I do NOT look forward to the times I have to use do it.
I don't know if this helps at all. Hope so.
Posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 16:11:21
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Sigismund, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 15:55:10
Posted by 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 16:11:50
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Sigismund, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 15:55:10
>It's no fun, and almost never simple, except maybe in the case of posting while blocked
Well this could sound wrong. I, of course, only meant that it is simpler in the cases of PWB, NOT that those are fun. Blocking is not fun.
Posted by Deputy Dinah on March 1, 2009, at 16:38:11
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Sigismund, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 15:55:10
> My points here are to say, yes, the formula does get used - at least by me and Deputy Racer. I think Dinah does not use it.
I use it for longer blocks, although I don't post the formula like Dr. Bob does. But sometimes it leads to longer blocks than just doubling does, so I'd rather err on the side of shorter blocks and ask Dr. Bob to review it. Also, perhaps because I've been a deputy back when we were only a very temporary fillin for Dr. Bob, I tend to defer length setting to him if I know he's around.
I keep Dr. Bob up to date on all my deputy actions, and especially so on blocks. We all do.
Actually, when it comes to blocks, I know we're all reluctant and usually try to get a consensus if at all possible. So the formula is generally considered one way or another and results are more consistent than it would be if we acted alone.
That's one thing I like about the team deputy system.
I think the deputies also tend to argue in favor of things that soften blocks. We may not have originated the ideas of civility buddies, blocked posters being allowed to chat, blocked posters being able to receive babblemail, etc. And I in no way want to claim credit for those ideas. But I know we argued in favor of them.
I won't take credit for this either and I can't recall who suggested it, but I'd like to have a formalized system in place, where posters who are blocked for longer than a week can apply to Dr. Bob to reduce their block length in return for a probationary period, or something along those lines.
Posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 16:48:10
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Deputy Dinah on March 1, 2009, at 16:38:11
"I won't take credit for this either and I can't recall who suggested it, but I'd like to have a formalized system in place, where posters who are blocked for longer than a week can apply to Dr. Bob to reduce their block length in return for a probationary period, or something along those lines."
Anything to soften stuff....
I dunno, change is slow and weird.
Interpersonal communication is tough at best.
I want everyboddy to be happy.
Stupid eh?
Wished I could stay in my 'happy world' state...
sigh.
Best of luck towards many, or even some happy moments for alla you guys.Someboddy wrote of when they SI's in session (scratched hard, drew blood) and their T didn't get mad, even thopugh they broke the rule of not hurting themsleves in the T room. The T was gnetle and helped soothe her owie.
That makes me feel weird.
Everything makes me feel weird.
Its a weird world.
Sincerely happy to be nuts.
M
Posted by 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 23:27:23
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks, posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 16:48:10
Posted by 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 23:28:16
In reply to (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((10der)))))))))))))))) (nm) » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 16:11:21
Posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 23:57:56
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks, posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 16:48:10
I think mayhap the point I was making is that proly lots people are used to punish.
So in the example the person seriously broke one of her T's rules.
You'd think for such a serious infraction T woulda dumped her.
But she didn't.
She helped soothe the hurt.
Makes my chest hurt, that she would do this.
That she didn't get mad, she didn't punish.
Lotta people would be thrown by that.
Cuz they never do that for themselves, they not have others do that for them, or they not allow it.So I guess we was thinking along the lines of blocks or something but I dunno exactly what the connection is.
I been kinda mixed up.
Maybe best to shut up until this passes.
Maybe I go find my brain, I reckon it gotta be around here SOMEwhere.
Kinda hard to find cuz it the size of a pea!
Take care,
M
Posted by 10derHeart on March 2, 2009, at 0:06:22
In reply to oops sorry, posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 23:57:56
...IF the last part of your message HAS to be true (according to you) then...............................................
you are my VERY favorite pea-brain!! lol.
Reminds me of something one ex-hubby used to say about a million years ago ( not to me, and not in a terribly mean way - just sorta exasperated) - he'd mutter under his breath about someone not seeming all that competent or just unable to get things right.....
"brains of an ant"
Not nice and uncivil to boot, but it could be kinda funny it a weird way....he never let the person actually *hear* him - but I did...
Pea-brains and ant-brains unite!!!!
Posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2009, at 1:14:48
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Sigismund, posted by Deputy 10derHeart on March 1, 2009, at 15:55:10
I'm touched that you should reply at such length.
Thank you.
Bob hasn't been around a lot
But he found time for zazenducke.
Posted by 10derHeart on March 2, 2009, at 22:36:25
In reply to Re: the blocking formula and blocks » Deputy 10derHeart, posted by Sigismund on March 2, 2009, at 1:14:48
> I'm touched that you should reply at such length.
Thanks. It's difficult for me to know what to say here sometimes, so I appreciate any and all support. IRL, though most people request I not do so, not at such length anyway. ;-)
("you talk too much!") Heard it all my life back as far as age 5-6.
> Bob hasn't been around a lot
This is true.
> But he found time for zazenducke.
Well, I suppose, yet I think that was perhaps a pure coincidence that he was the one to take any admin action. I think we had notified him and asked him to look at various boards/threads, when zzd just happened by....
I understand what you are saying, though.
>
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2009, at 4:10:04
In reply to oops sorry, posted by muffled on March 1, 2009, at 23:57:56
> > This discussion has already yielded a couple new ways of doing things.
>
> I need to know what the "new things" are.
>
> fayeroeI meant:
> It may help if complaints about [deputies] are emailed to me directly and not posted or submitted using the notification system. And if blocks are longer for incivility toward them. So let's make those changes
--
> this discussion regarding blocks/math/civility rules has been ongoing for years. So in the best interest of a subject coming up over and over again, how about addressing it.
>
> help us address this issue once and for all.
>
> Dr. Bob, no you don't trigger me when you are gone, what triggers me is posters I value are suddenly gone in a discuss that you deem inappropriate.I don't think it can be addressed once and for all, I think it needs to keep evolving.
And I didn't mean to imply that I thought my being gone triggered everyone. Different people have different issues. And certainly posters being blocked can be a huge trigger.
> Another new beginning was derailed.
>
> rskMaybe derailed, but maybe continuing on another track...
--
> My "Bob Pet Peeve List" is topped by pointing out that all the anger at him is really transference. None of it as actually justified by his behavior.
>
> BayI didn't mean to imply that it's all transference. Certainly some of it is justified by my behavior.
--
> I think that it would be a terrific relief to some of the posters if our "discussion" was a two- way street. I don't believe that it is now.
>
> I think that there is fair amount of self-disclosure from the posters when it comes to trying to talk to you about the administration of Babble.
>
> It takes two to tango.
>
> fayeroeIt isn't a two-way street. I sometimes long to tango with you, and you may sometimes long to tango with me, but my dance with you is different than your dance with each other.
--
> I think mayhap the point I was making is that proly lots people are used to punish.
> So in the example the person seriously broke one of her T's rules.
> You'd think for such a serious infraction T woulda dumped her.
> But she didn't.
> She helped soothe the hurt.
> Makes my chest hurt, that she would do this.
>
> So I guess we was thinking along the lines of blocks or something but I dunno exactly what the connection is.
>
> MMaybe some posters stay because they hope and desire not to be dumped (blocked) for infractions. Hopes and desires like that may be likely to be frustrated. Suspending rules may be tempting, but can have its own complications.
Bob
Posted by rskontos on March 4, 2009, at 14:32:01
In reply to Re: hopes and desires, posted by Dr. Bob on March 3, 2009, at 4:10:04
..I don't think it can be addressed once and for all, I think it needs to keep evolving...
Dr. Bob,
Perhaps you think so, but to me it is obvious that this is a painful thing to posters and evolution in this sense (ongoing discussion) seems to be even more painful. No resolution, no peace. JMHO
rsk
Posted by fayeroe on March 4, 2009, at 14:45:03
In reply to Re: hopes and desires » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on March 4, 2009, at 14:32:01
> ..I don't think it can be addressed once and for all, I think it needs to keep evolving...
>
> Dr. Bob,
>
> Perhaps you think so, but to me it is obvious that this is a painful thing to posters and evolution in this sense (ongoing discussion) seems to be even more painful. No resolution, no peace. JMHO
>
> rskExcellent point. Cutting off the discussion before issues are taken care of has happened before.
I hate that. Babble won't grow and evolve without the process of healing that comes when the circle is completed. Sad.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 0:01:34
In reply to Re: hopes and desires » Dr. Bob, posted by rskontos on March 4, 2009, at 14:32:01
> to me it is obvious that this is a painful thing to posters and evolution in this sense (ongoing discussion) seems to be even more painful. No resolution, no peace.
Ongoing evolution and growth does mean there may not be permanent resolution and peace. Still, that's the option I'd prefer.
Bob
Posted by Sigismund on March 5, 2009, at 1:24:42
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 0:01:34
>Ongoing evolution and growth
with (or without) whom?
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 8:24:29
In reply to Re: resolution and peace » Dr. Bob, posted by Sigismund on March 5, 2009, at 1:24:42
> > Ongoing evolution and growth
>
> with (or without) whom?With those who want to see where this journey takes us?
Bob
Posted by muffled on March 5, 2009, at 13:26:36
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 8:24:29
> > > Ongoing evolution and growth
> >
> > with (or without) whom?
>
> With those who want to see where this journey takes us?
>
> Bob*Fair enuf.
I just wish there was some way we could make this clear somehow....so people could be safer. But I guess there is no safe place in this life.
For me, I have so much confusion in my head at times, that I need a place where there is not such evolution and growth. Which is perhaps less stimulating, but at this time is all I can handle.
I appeciate that Bob has expressed some emotion and more clearly some of his thots.
Thanks.
Take care.
M
Posted by fayeroe on March 5, 2009, at 14:08:13
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 8:24:29
> > > Ongoing evolution and growth
> >
> > with (or without) whom?
>
> With those who want to see where this journey takes us?
>
> BobI wonder how it would feel to have a safe place where I am not waiting for the other shoe to drop?
Posted by Toph on March 6, 2009, at 10:38:02
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 0:01:34
>
> Ongoing evolution and growth does mean there may not be permanent resolution and peace. Still, that's the option I'd prefer.
>
> BobSystems theorists suggest that evolution is less of a goal or choice than a natural by-product of conflict and instability.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Systems_Theory/Evolution_&_Growth
Posted by Sigismund on March 6, 2009, at 13:17:58
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Toph on March 6, 2009, at 10:38:02
Posted by rskontos on March 6, 2009, at 15:47:01
In reply to Re: resolution and peace, posted by Dr. Bob on March 5, 2009, at 8:24:29
>>With those who want to see where this journey takes us?
Bob >>
You have included yourself in the us, however, your journey is remarkably different than others. Yours is not from the same can of worms as ours by any stretch of the imagination. I think the potential for us to be hurt is much more greater than yours!
But i guess like muffled said it nice you shared some of your thoughts.
I am amazed at times about the apparent lack of flexibility. (in how you view the things we perceive as threatening you view as a journey.)
oh well I guess we made a nice try however futile.
rsk
Posted by rskontos on March 6, 2009, at 15:48:08
In reply to Re: hopes and desires » rskontos, posted by fayeroe on March 4, 2009, at 14:45:03
> > ..I don't think it can be addressed once and for all, I think it needs to keep evolving...
> >
> > Dr. Bob,
> >
> > Perhaps you think so, but to me it is obvious that this is a painful thing to posters and evolution in this sense (ongoing discussion) seems to be even more painful. No resolution, no peace. JMHO
> >
> > rsk
>
> Excellent point. Cutting off the discussion before issues are taken care of has happened before.
>
> I hate that. Babble won't grow and evolve without the process of healing that comes when the circle is completed. Sad.
>
>
Thanks, and I agree fayeroe, I agree. Too bad Dr. Bob can't see it more our way.rsk
Posted by rskontos on March 6, 2009, at 15:48:51
In reply to Re: hopes and desires, posted by rskontos on March 6, 2009, at 15:48:08
Posted by fayeroe on March 6, 2009, at 15:58:46
In reply to Re: hopes and desires, posted by rskontos on March 6, 2009, at 15:48:08
I remember when Jennifer Anniston said that Brad Pitt was missing a sensitivity chip.
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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