![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 53 to 77 of 97. Go back in thread:
Posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Nadezda, posted by gardenergirl on September 7, 2008, at 20:15:29
PLEASE consider this:
If the thread of Kattwoman would have been deleted or even just moved to another forum section SHE WOULDN'T HAVE RECEIVED HELP AT HER MOTEL ROOM. Because nobody would have discovered her identity and the police would have not known about her. I will not explain exactly how this is for some reasons but let's say that having a group of people caring enough to answer the suicidal user and having some of that group playing 'Colombo\CSI agent' to find the identity and location of the user and then contact the their local authorities with the profile/ID to make sure the user get some helps asap WAS IN THIS CASE WAY MORE EFFECTIVE than only having the owner of this web site to act on the situation.
(And FYI, while the reaction speed and the quality of the intervention wasn't exactly what you would expect from an expert who authored some published papers and a book about his experiences running this site in order to 'teach' his peers on how it's done ... he DID tried to act on the situation...)
Other reasons for NOT deleting any of those threads are that it could, possibly, trigger the suicide .. as the sufferer could take this as rejection or "another proof that nobody cares" etc ... I don't get it people: THIS IS A COMMUNITY FOR PEOPLE WITH MENTAL DISORDERS AND YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT SUPRESSING ACCESS TO THE COMMUNITY IN TIME OF SUICIDAL CRISIS ? For what ? The advantages of letting the thread are dwarfing the inconveniences. I'm disapointed by some comments I saw here.. simply desolating to read. I saw someone here talking about his/her 'Selfishness' ?! This is a place where you give and receive.. and there's no better timing to receive than when you're suicidal. Nobody ask you to act upon those threads.. it's your right to do or think whatever you want about those threads but it's the priviledges of some others to be able to do something about it. I think it's not pretty when you come to think we should suppress the priviledges of the one who suffers and the one who wants to help the sufferers just because you don't want to SEE what's happening because you're not willing/able to do something about it.
Can't believe this is serious.. what's next ? Would you want the media to ban any article/news related to the poorest countries in the world so you wouldn't have to heard about their misery because it makes you feel bad about doing nothing about it .. even after considering that it would prevents other people to DO something about it ? This kind of selfishness as no place in a community like this one. While I'm sensitive to the possible sensitivities of the members of this forum due to his nature, I think we are responsible for what we say when we come in Admin to express our view about how this site should be run.. and this 'selfishness' thing deserve to be denounced.
"Doctor, could you please make sure I'm the only patient in your waiting room when I come to your office ? ...seeing all those sick persons makes me feel bad about not doing nothing for them." .. What about doing something for them by NOT SUPPRESING THEIR OPPORTUNITIES OF GETTING MUCH NEEDED HELP ? ..
[PS: in the next paragraphs 'YOU' means everyone regular members on this site.. NOT the people who said he was selfish.. ]
Oh and BTW, You may disagree with Dr.Hsiung (aka Dr.Bob) about a couple things as I do.. but he's right about having regular community members participating in the day-to-day running of this site. See, this site has been thought as a COMMUNITY with the concept of E-Therapy in mind.. and in this 'therapy' what you give to the group is as therapeutic as what you receive from it. If you can't give what you've been asked for.. that's perfectly okay .. just like in a real life therapy. The one who can give does and the other who can't doesn't and that's perfect like this.
Also.. stop thinking that because this site is run by a psychiatrist, we sufferers are ENTITLED to receive the services it offers or that we should receives those service the way we expect the medical science thinks it must be prescribed: This is 2008.. there's no hundreds years of online clinical experiences and a medecine manual contening 'Best Practices' regarding how to run such a site... We ain't ENTITLED TO ANYTHING HERE ... stop acting like this site is paid by your pocket, your insurance company or the government.. Dr.Bob isn't on the job here so stop whining about the quality of the services he renders us: You're not a customer, familly or someone who give something back to him.. think about it: contrary to EVERY members on Pbbable who receive constantly from this site, Dr.Bob the one who receive THE LESS from this community.. a couple occasional 'thanks' here and maybe some occasional respect from SOME of his peers there.. THAT'S IT .. Also, let's stop acting like this site MUST be run as a DEMOCRACY... with our level of contribution to the day-to-day operations on this site we are previleged to be able to speak and critics so freely. Dr.Bob doesn't owes us NOTHING AT ALL ... in fact we owes some to him. Do you know many psychiatrist who invest his time/money (some peers would even talk about credibility !) into something like this site ? Let's stop acting like this people... Dr.Bob ain't our mother and we aren't giving him NOTHING in return for what he gaves us! Having a PhD in medecin shouldn't ENSLAVE you to give everything you have to the ill and enslave you to perfection in your way of giving .. WE AREN'T Dr.BOB PATIENTS .. we are guests here, we aren't renter .. If you pay for an hotel room you're entitled to clean towels, clean beds etc.. but if your the guest of one of your friend for some time you're NOT entitled to much of anything and don't act like you're at the hotel if someday he ask your help to do the dishes.. Still Dr.Bob couldn't ask a member to participate (ie: to relay an information to a thread) ? .. and he can't share no responsabilities with us under the pretext we are sick ? .. under the pretext of the seriousness of the situations happening on the board ? Why would he be the only one having all this weight on his shoulders ? because he has an effing PhD and that he work as a clinician ? I'm a software engineer who could fix you're computer if you ask me .. but I dare you giving me sh*t because I've ask you to hand me a 'starshaped' screwdriver because I could have reach for it myself .. thinks it's different ? It's not. Doctors aren't either our Mothers, Gods or Slaves.. especially when you're not their patient.
We owes them much more than they owes us, EVEN when we pay them./\/\arty
Posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 23:33:27
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Thank you Marty. For me you put a lot of the garbled thoughts in my head in your post.
Posted by Phillipa on September 7, 2008, at 23:37:43
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Marty again job well done. I guess some of us just like to really help babblers as they are truly real people who hurt and bleed. And Kattwoman needed us. Maybe if she was a known babbler thoughts also would be different. Love Phillipa
Posted by Deneb on September 8, 2008, at 0:44:18
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
Thanks for writing that Marty. :-)
((((((Dr. Bob))))))
Posted by Dr. Bob on September 8, 2008, at 1:31:45
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
> Oh and BTW, You may disagree with Dr.Hsiung (aka Dr.Bob) about a couple things as I do.. but he's right about having regular community members participating in the day-to-day running of this site.
Thanks for your support, I appreciate it.
And I know this may have been stressful for many of you. But please remember not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by rskontos on September 8, 2008, at 12:10:13
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
I thought I would weigh in on this issue. I did not respond to Kattwoman because her posts really hit me hard. It prompted in me my own suicidal thoughts in ways I had not thought about it before so I had to for my own good not answer. I was just unable to.
That being said, though, I would not want to delete the posts. I am glad the other Babblers were there. I personally feel that this is what Babble is for and you do what you can for each post if you can support you do, if you can't you hurt in private for that person, but you never want to undermine their pain which I think a deletion would do. At least for me, if my post or thread stating a proposed action such as Katt's was deleted I would probably go over the edge. And as Marty stated she would not have rec'd her help. And that I feel justifies the leaving of the posts such as this. As much as it might hurt someone else, if it saves a life, then it is necessary.
Saving just one person is something that is vital. We have had too many losses in recent times. I am glad this one ended well.I have in the past been able to answer suicidal posts. Just not this time. I support their retention on any board the poster places them. We all need as much support as we can get in times of deep depression. Sometimes for many of us this is the safest place we have or sometimes the only one.
JMHO
rsk
Posted by Phillipa on September 8, 2008, at 12:30:19
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by rskontos on September 8, 2008, at 12:10:13
Rsk well said. Love Phillipa
Posted by obsidian on September 8, 2008, at 12:54:05
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
hey,
when you talk about selfishness please address me directly since, as I can tell, I am the only one who mentioned the word.
I have no illusions about saving anyone. Reality sucks, face it.
Posted by Partlycloudy on September 8, 2008, at 13:24:03
In reply to What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by seldomseen on September 7, 2008, at 9:54:08
I don't feel that I can adequately respond to suicidal posts on the boards, whereas in years past I took the risk (to myself) and did so. I no longer feel that I can take that risk, having seen the board lose several members over the years.
And to the other part of your question, I also don't feel that posts of this nature should be deleted.
I feel quite strongly that the administrator of the site has an implied responsibility because of having access to poster information that the rest of the community does not; and if the administrator is not available for whatever reason (vacation or personal reasons) then the information should be routinely made available to the deputies in their absence.
Posted by karen_kay on September 8, 2008, at 15:56:01
In reply to Re: post something on that thread, posted by Dr. Bob on September 6, 2008, at 14:00:19
COME ON!
first of all, abbie shouldn't have to say why it would bother abbie.
second of all, why would you take the time to respond 'why don't you just do it yourself?' instead of DOING IT YOURSELF????
i understand the point of this environment is to help eachother, but i highly doubt most of this community would be able to handle someone who is suicidal nearlly as well as you would be (Easpecially considering you have private/personal info that most others don't)
hey, why don't you look it up yourself, instead of counting/relying on US to f*ck*ng talk to eachother to find out where such and such lives?
ridiculous! i'd hope if i was suicidal, rather than waiting on poster number one to talk to poster number 2 to talk to poster number 3 who happens to know where i live and can call 911, you'd call 911 mister bob, RIGHT????
then again, i really hope i'm completely dense and missing the point completely. you are jsut talking about passing along basic info from board to board, right? (still though, that just seems lazy :( hope that doesn't seem insensitive!)
love you always,
kk
Posted by 10derHeart on September 8, 2008, at 16:41:28
In reply to what?????? » Dr. Bob, posted by karen_kay on September 8, 2008, at 15:56:01
>you are jsut talking about passing along basic info from board to board, right?
That's what I thought (and believe) Dr. Bob was always talking about, from the very beginning of the thread. That it helps if someone else - could be a deputy, or could be *any* poster - would just alert people on the thread in question about what's over on the Admin thread - provide a link, maybe? That and nothing more. I do understand it could seem that asking and doing would have taken the same amount of time. But perhaps not to Dr. Bob, at that precise moment. It's been my experience our brains don't always sort that kind of thing out, even something that in hindsight seems incredibly obvious, in the "heat of the moment," so to speak.
Of course, his subsequent short and sometimes (to me, anyway) partly cryptic replies didn't exactly help in clarifying things:-( But then again, I can't *force* Dr. Bob or anyone else I know to change their communication style, I suppose
It does seem the thread later changed and added topics quite a bit as it continued though, and at that point, I became somewhat confused.
I wonder about the idea of laziness. Maybe sometimes, at that moment, hour, night, etc., someone is doing something even more important, in their view. We can't know all the particulars of 100% of what's going on in others lives, on and off Babble, at any given time. I know I often brand myself "lazy" for asking for certain kinds of help, or not doing something fast enough, or in a different order. Then sometimes, my T., or a friend, gives me another perspective.
I think Dr. Bob does everything he can in these situations, and he does take them seriously and does care. I can't provide proof sufficient in a court of law, or the court of public opinion here, for that matter. But I do believe that.
Posted by Deneb on September 8, 2008, at 16:50:51
In reply to what?????? » Dr. Bob, posted by karen_kay on September 8, 2008, at 15:56:01
Maybe Dr. Bob doesn't want people to rely on him to "save" suicidal posters. He doesn't want to appear to be the one "saving" someone.
It's kind of dangerous to rely on Dr. Bob because first he's not always around and second, it's not his job.
Perhaps if people thought Dr. Bob would save them, there wouldn't be as much help from posters. Also, if Dr. Bob didn't make it seem like he will "save" people, then maybe some people who want to be "saved" wouldn't do anything to require Dr. Bob to save them?
LOL I'm probably not being very clear here.
I used to want people to save me, but then I realized no one can save me but myself. :-)
Posted by 10derHeart on September 8, 2008, at 16:53:11
In reply to Re: what??????, posted by Deneb on September 8, 2008, at 16:50:51
Posted by Zeba on September 8, 2008, at 21:30:55
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Zeba, posted by Justherself54 on September 7, 2008, at 23:01:16
> Yes, this could be debated until the cows come home but I'd like to ask a couple of questions if that's OK.
>
> How do you think this situation should have been handled? And how are Dr. Bob's peers going to be able to weigh in on this? Do you feel there should be some sort of sanctions against him?First of all it is a rare occurance for someone to post that they are in the process of killing themself. So, since we as posters typically have no way of knowing what this person's email address is and therefore have no way of stopping or intervening directly in stopping the suicide by, for example calling the police, then I think Dr. Bob and/or the deputies may need to intervene. At this point it is my understanding that the deputies do not have the email address of someone either. Perhaps they should if Dr. Bob is not around much which seems to be the case. I would have no idea how to intervene other than to ask if someone knows who this person is or their email address. If no one knows, then I guess the person ends up dead. I think that is a horrible thing especially if there is one person who might be able to intervene and prevent it.
This is Dr. Bob's site, and he is more than willing to intervene to stop what he would consider uncivil. The deputies are given this authority as well. So, in those rare instances as what occured recently, I am thinking there needs to be a way to find out who this person is. This can be done if one knows the person's true email address.
It just so happened that Marty had some way of knowing who this person is. I would not have had a clue in the world how to know who this person is. What if Marty had been layed up with pneumonia in the hospital and was not available, then what would have happened? We are fortunate that he was able to know or find out who this person was. He might want to share his detective work if that is what he used so that others might know for the future if need be. Hopefully it won't be needed again or for a long time.
Why am I thinking that other psychiatrists might disapprove of absolving himself from all responsibility, well it is his site. I am not saying he is the only person who should bear responsibility, but he does bear some responsibility. It is HIS site, and as I said, he is more than willing to block people who he considers uncivil.
I am and have been aware for some time, even before all this became an issue, that there are psychiatrists who disapprove of what he does and does not do here with his babble site. I would prefer not to go into detail as such things were told me in confidence, and I do not think it would be right to broadcast over the babble board and to the Internet as this is exactly what happens with our posts. They are on the Internet for all to see.
Zeba
Posted by Nadezda on September 8, 2008, at 21:40:18
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this? » Justherself54, posted by Zeba on September 8, 2008, at 21:30:55
Even if some people disapprove of what Bob does with the site, I'm not sure what that indicates. Lots of us disagree with certain policies Bob has on the site; many objections are wellthought out, and have merit, although our opinions diverge about this.
I'm not surprised that some psychiatrists or other trained mental health workers disapprove of the site. We should all be aware-- as I hope we are-- that our posts are stored somewhere. That doesn't mean, of course, that anyone will read them-- but we all should protect our own privacy--and we need to recognize the limits of any site, or place, as well.. But people in a field frequently disagree or disapprove of things that others in the field do. All mental health sites and agencies, and practitioners have flaws and limitations.
I personally find great value in this site, and feel that others do, too. While we may be frustrated or angry at times about various issues, I would hope that most of us who participate could also acknowledge a great debt to Bob for running a site with so much value-- even if it's flawed or lacking in some respects.
Nadezda
Posted by Zeba on September 8, 2008, at 21:43:03
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
This will be my last post on this thread.
First of all I think there has been some misunderstanding of my position. So I will delininate them here.
1. I have never been in favor of eliminating posts of persons who say they are about to or are in the process of committing suicide. I think the posts should stay.
2. I believe that the boards are for helping each other. I have never suggested that only Dr. Bob could be of help to anyone.
3. I believe that suicides in process are rare on the boards here, and I do NOT think that babblers should have the only responsibilty for intervening in such cases. If you, Marty, had not known who this person is and how to find her, then I guess we would have had a successful suicide.
I am saying that Dr. Bob bears some reponsibility as it is his site, and he apparently is the only person who has access to someone's true email which then allows for finding the person. Perhaps the deputies should have access to the true emails as well. If someone where to talk about how they are suiciding on this site, then I think it would be more than unfortunate if no one could intervene, and we all had to sit by and let it happen. This is all I am saying.
I am NOT suggesting that Dr. Bob act like a psychiatrist per se. I AM saying this is his site, and as I already said, he does intervene when he thinks a post is uncivil. So, how is this that different??? What would be so awful about him or designees intervening in the situation we just had??? As I said in the previous post, what if you were laid up in the hospital with pneumonia, for example, Marty and did not know this person had even posted. Lets say you were so sick you were in a delerious fever state, what then? How would we have found out where this person is?
Perhaps there does need to be shared responsibility, but that means that there needs to be shared access to who the person might be, and my suggestion is that perhaps the deputies should have access to the real emails and have the capacity to then find the person so that someone can intervene.
Zeba
Posted by 10derHeart on September 8, 2008, at 23:18:41
In reply to Re: What is the opinion of the community on this?, posted by Marty on September 7, 2008, at 23:19:49
As a couple of people have mentioned this, I just wanted to express my opinion on deputies having email addresses and/or other personal information.
I do not want access to this information for any reason. I don't feel comfortable at all with the responsibility or the stress and issues it would inevitably bring up. It's not what I signed on for, and I would never agree to it.
When I became a deputy, it was made explicitly clear that *any and all* deputy duties were entirely voluntary. Dr. Bob has been basically true to that, although he has asked us to do more in general in recent months as his absences have increased. That is *asking* though, and we are not compelled or pressured to do anything, except perhaps by our own internal state - i.e., concern for the posters in this community, loyalty and caring for Dr. Bob, or a sense of personal responsibility about certain areas.
But I digress - strictly on the topic of suicidal posters, I do not want the information for that purpose either. I am not qualified or trained. I leave this to the professionals who have some idea how to approach these sad and stressful events. If others feel comfortable, that is wonderful, and I admire them greatly, and am so thankful they are there to try to help. I do not have the strength or confidence to do that, at least not in a venue like Babble. I *have* done it IRL, as a supervisor and friend - I won't share the details, but there were mixed outcomes. I do have personal triggers and other factors that would completely preclude me from being depended on to handle these situations as part of the deputy role here.
I would never agree to an expectation of me as a deputy to decide whether or no to call an ISP, the police or a poster. It's not something I feel capable of or frankly, interested in attempting in any way, shape or form. Dr. Bob knows this full well, and still sees me as a fit and good [or good enough - I guess] deputy. He doesn't hold this as a requirement. He understands when we don't feel up to doing the most mundane of deputy duties, for hours, days or weeks even. He generally tells us to take care of our physical and mental health first, and that we do not have to act at all, should we not be able or willing.
I do what I can to help when time is of the essence, as it clearly was this time, and I did forward some information back and forth between people. But, I can't and won't take on responsibility to the extent that it seems might be assumed, imagined or desired by the community. I am sorry if this is disappointing :-(
This is my own view - the other deputies may feel quite differently, of course.
Posted by Racer on September 9, 2008, at 0:19:03
In reply to Re: what??????, posted by 10derHeart on September 8, 2008, at 16:41:28
10derHeart and I disagree on a number of points -- which I consider a strength of the multiple deputy system -- so I'd like to add my voice to this thread.
First our biggest disagreement: I think 10der is a great deputy -- I wish I had anywhere near her ability to convey compassion, even when she's writing a PBC. She works tremendously hard for this community, and I am very grateful to her for her efforts.
Unlike 10der, I'd be willing to take more responsibility regarding suicidal posts -- and I do take a certain amount of behind-the-scenes action on them. We do not have access to email addresses -- and Zeba, I think Dinah was referring to anonymous email accounts, such as Excite or Yahoo, which can't be used to identify the user -- nor to real names nor any other identifying information. I am not in favor of giving me access to information, by the way, due to privacy issues. I think it protects the posters here that we don't have that information.
I'm not comfortable identifying what steps I have taken in these situations, but please be assured that the administration did take action.
Unfortunately, none of us thought to post anything on that thread. I chose not to, because I was afraid that the poster in question would read it and take evasive action of some sort. Nonetheless, it would have been nice if we'd let the rest of the board know that something had been done. When Dr Bob requested that someone post a note on the main thread, he was referring -- as has been mentioned before -- only to the notification on the main thread, NOT to taking direct action for the poster.
I hope that helps ease the fears this situation brought on for everyone here. Even if we don't always communicate it here, we do act to the best of our ability on issues such as this one.
Posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2008, at 0:34:25
In reply to Another voice chiming in, posted by Racer on September 9, 2008, at 0:19:03
From what I understand a lot was going on behind the scenes and that is how the poster was found . I too will give no more info. But people do find ways of getting info. And thankfully a wonderful poster was present at the time. Phillipa I'm comfortable if I know an e-mail dealing with suicidal posters once I called the police In their state and action was taken and he was held for 72 hours a good outcome. Talked to his pdoc too and forwarded a bunch of the unnamed parties suicidal e-mails to him. Happy ending today he's doing very well. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 8:08:58
In reply to deputies having information/acting, posted by 10derHeart on September 8, 2008, at 23:18:41
I've always made it clear that I feel as 10der does. It's no light matter to decide when to call the police to someone's house. I will not take on that responsibility, as I do not have the training to do it. It's a different skill set than civility rulings.
Posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2008, at 12:39:34
In reply to Re: deputies having information/acting, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 8:08:58
Dinah true yes there is extensive training but somehow I have to wonder if it was a setup to see how we as a community would react. I'm not criticizing anyone nor accusing anyone. Just have been pondering this the last few days. For me I just always liked crisis intervention in person til got sick now I couldn't do it. As a matter of me I can't be around illness anymore too many triggers for me. So I feel everyone should do what's comfortable for them and thank those you jump into action. Phillipa
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 13:21:48
In reply to Re: deputies having information/acting » Dinah, posted by Phillipa on September 9, 2008, at 12:39:34
If you're asking if it was a setup by Dr. Bob to see how community members would react, I can assure you it was not.
People continue to overestimate Dr. Bob's involvement in Babble. He isn't involved enough at the present time to bother setting up a situation like that, even if he were so lacking in ethics to do so.
Posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 13:45:16
In reply to Re: deputies having information/acting » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 13:21:48
Now that Ike has passed, I think I'm heading into post-evacuation reaction. I should back away from the computer for a while.
I do, however, miss Dr. Bob's presence on the board and think the board was better served when he was around enough to make moot any discussion of whether deputies should have powers that some of them don't want.
Posted by 10derHeart on September 9, 2008, at 14:31:21
In reply to Re: deputies having information/acting » Phillipa, posted by Dinah on September 9, 2008, at 13:21:48
I echo and agree with every word here, and don't believe any apologies were needed.
But I understand why you apologized. It's who you are - and it's admirable and wonderful. You take care and don't worry about Babble...
Posted by Partlycloudy on September 9, 2008, at 14:56:43
In reply to Re: deputies having information/acting » Dinah, posted by 10derHeart on September 9, 2008, at 14:31:21
I suppose I should clarify my own comments about implied responsibility and access to poster information. I was only a deputy briefly; however, I had the experience of being on chat at a time when another participant was actively suicidal. The members of the community who were also on chat at the same time expected me to take action, and told me so. I did what I could (though Dr Bob was actually not reachable at the time with the channels I had to use). Things turned out OK that time, but I was frustrated by the expectations of the community (in the chat room at that time) of me as a deputy, and my inability to have any real consequence - my deputy hat meant essentially nothing. I resigned the next day.
I haven't been quite right since then.
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