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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 36. Go back in thread:
Posted by Toph on March 30, 2008, at 8:16:54
In reply to Re: its all been said Dr Bob » star008, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2008, at 22:15:37
> So the babblemail I sent to you before you were blocked, in which I offered suggestions regarding rephrasing, didn't help point the way towards an opportunity to rephrase and/or apologize?
>
> gg
>Without knowing the exact circumstances of the incident I have to agree with Star that by using a question to make a statement you opened the door for her to think that you were criticizing her or being sarcastic. The question, 'You didn't eat your porridge?' depending on the intonation used can be a simmple inquiry, critical, sarcastic, or a rhetorical rebuke. Why leave it ambiguous? Why not use a declarative statement like, 'I feel like I gave you ample warning, and I'm sorry if it wasn't sufficient.'? I detect tone in your replies often - I hope I'm mistaken.
Posted by seldomseen on March 30, 2008, at 10:55:01
In reply to Re: its all been said Dr Bob » star008, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2008, at 22:15:37
That's what the message boards at babble are for.
Perhaps we all need to look at our posts and decide what we are trying to accomplish with them - an offering of support, a desire to educate, or something else entirely.
Posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 11:06:11
In reply to To support and educate, posted by seldomseen on March 30, 2008, at 10:55:01
I agree.
Good point from Toph too, got me to thinking as well.
When I post I need to look twice.
Good points have been made on this thread.
I feel I have learned something from babble today.
Thanks to all.
M
Posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2008, at 12:39:37
In reply to please don't shame me without understanding (nm) » gardenergirl, posted by star008 on March 30, 2008, at 7:06:21
Were it even possible for me to access an internal state in someone other than myself, i.e. to cause you to feel shame or any other emotion, negative or positive, I would have no reason to do so and would not.
I asked about your response to my babblemail because I had never received any acknowledgment of it, and because it seemed relevant to your expressed wish for opportunities to rephrase or apologize. I wondered if perhaps you never received the message or if I had somehow failed in what I intended--providing information and support. And thus I essentially asked, "did it not accomplish what I intended?"
That's it. That's all there is to it. No drama. No hidden agendas. No whatever.
gg
Posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 12:54:43
In reply to please be civil » gardenergirl, posted by Toph on March 30, 2008, at 8:16:54
I agree, especially with the on-target comment about "tone". The reasons I am unable to continue posting as I have in the past (see above) definitely involve the tone of the posts I have received during the past month. Reading them, I invariably feel the writers' sarcasm, sense of superiority and intolerance for differing views. There have also been negative consequences for me from receiving a PCB- the first one in five years as an active participant here.. A PCB has quite a strong judgmental tone and feels like an authoritative put-down; being offered the opportunity to rephrase would be far better because it keeps the essence of the dialogue going, and does not involve any judgements of anyone.
Posted by star008 on March 30, 2008, at 15:39:19
In reply to Were that even possible... » star008, posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2008, at 12:39:37
I could not respond to your babble mail. I was blocked and by the time I could it wasn't relevant anymore. Had I gotten to it in time I would have taken your warning and advice.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 16:37:32
In reply to its all been said Dr Bob, posted by star008 on March 29, 2008, at 15:20:04
> You , Dr bob are the one that people look to for answers..We can be independent here but it seems to me that people need your support asd well as the support of each other. ... While we can support each other, many of us have our own issues and IMO there needs to be someone that we can look beyond ourselves to for answers. There ws so much hurt and so much pain.
I'm sorry you lost your brother and were hurt by my absence. I know it helps if I'm more present, but please do also continue look to each other for support. There are a lot more of you than there are of me!
> As far as blocks go. IMO a poster should be given a warning to make an attempt to correct the way they stated something. I was blocked and while I ralize the way I worded things was not correct, I would have liked the opportunity to rephrase or apologize. I would learn more by rephrasing then just being blocked.
Well, it looks like another opportunity is upon us...
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 17:00:19
In reply to Re: please be civil, posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 12:54:43
> please don't shame me without understanding
>
> star008> I asked about your response to my babblemail because I had never received any acknowledgment of it
>
> gg> I invariably feel the writers' sarcasm, sense of superiority and intolerance for differing views.
>
> twinleafKeeping in mind that the idea here is not to post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down, could you all please rephrase the above?
But please don't take this personally, this doesn't mean I don't like you or think you're bad people.
And I'm sorry if any of you felt hurt by the posts of the others.
Thanks,
Bob
PS:
> There have also been negative consequences for me from receiving a PCB
A polychlorinated biphenyl? I hope a PBC is less toxic than that! :-)
Posted by Toph on March 30, 2008, at 18:56:58
In reply to Were that even possible... » star008, posted by gardenergirl on March 30, 2008, at 12:39:37
When I met you a few years ago, gg, I was so impressed with how much you cared about this place. I appreciate what you have volunteered to do here. It feels awkward that I was critical.
Posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 20:56:35
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » star008 » gardenergirl » twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 17:00:19
I don't know how to rephrase it. I made sure it was an "I" message, and I said what I felt to be true. I did not name any particular posters, in order to be sure that the emphasis stayed with my own reactions to posts sent to me, rather than attempting to blame anyone else for what they said. I feel that the posters who sent these messages have an absolute right to express themselves honestly-but, at the sanme time, I also have an equal right to react to what they have said honestly. When you are considering civility actions, I think it should be important to you to notice who has started these interactions rather than habitually reprimand the recipient of them. If nothing else, it is almost certainly not a good idea to encourage posters who have already endured various kinds of abuse in their early lives to endure further verbal abuse here, and to punish them with PCB;s or blocks if they object. All posters should object to any abuse whatsoever- it's a sign of health and strength on their parts that they do so. If you and your deputies line up solely on the side of punishment and repression, you are not helping anyone, and may well be harming them in their healthy attempts to be appropriately assertive. At the moment, you are acting like the worst of the families we are all in the process of leaving behind.
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 22:31:06
In reply to Re: please rephrase that....., posted by twinleaf on March 30, 2008, at 20:56:35
> > I invariably feel the writers' sarcasm, sense of superiority and intolerance for differing views.
> I don't know how to rephrase it. I made sure it was an "I" message
Thanks for trying, but a true I-statement would say more about how you felt and less about the writer. For example:
> > I invariably feel hurt, inferior, and rejected.
Here's a post from Dinah that goes into more detail:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20040112/msgs/320097.html
> When you are considering civility actions, I think it should be important to you to notice who has started these interactions rather than habitually reprimand the recipient of them. If nothing else, it is almost certainly not a good idea to encourage posters who have already endured various kinds of abuse in their early lives to endure further verbal abuse here, and to punish them with PCB;s or blocks if they object. All posters should object to any abuse whatsoever- it's a sign of health and strength on their parts that they do so. If you and your deputies line up solely on the side of punishment and repression, you are not helping anyone, and may well be harming them in their healthy attempts to be appropriately assertive.
I do take into account whether someone's been provoked, but I want posters neither just to endure incivility nor to respond with incivility themselves. I think it would be appropriately assertive to notify me and the deputies and if they want to respond directly, to do so in a civil way.
Bob
Posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 22:59:02
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » star008 » gardenergirl » twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 17:00:19
> please don't shame me without understanding
>
> star008Star I know your new here and new to babblspeak. Its confusing in the extreeme to me, and I been trying to understand it for quite awhile!!!!
So I am going to TRY and help you figger this....
This is as much for ME as you cuz I am trying SO hard to figger this. My curious one has been around alot....So: when you staed what you did, and it was addressed to GG, it comes across RIGHT or WRONG, that doesn't matter, as a put down, or whatever they call it. But see, thats not allowed here...yup CONFUSING!
So..sometimes stuff like that goes by cuz the convo continues and posters work it out, other times(mysteriously to me)the please rephrase comes out.
So, I completely understand where your comming from, but perhaps some things are best left unsaid here, or wait till you've had a chance to think on it some, I've had a PBC and PR or two...! Or if you wish to express the sentiment, then maybe...
But babblers DID back you up...or tried to.
OK, now THIS is where I get lost...
Hmmmm.
I felt misunderstood...?no, that doesn't work...
.......
.......
ok
.......
ummmmmm...thinking....
Perhaps...I dunno, I just can't figger it???
Anyhow, its very perplexing how the written word, when I write it (eg emails to T), it makes perfect sense to me, but then when someone else reads it(eg my T) they get something TOTALLY different from it.
Its WEIRD.
I am rambling.
I just wish you'd stick around star....
M
Posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 23:28:56
In reply to Re: its all been said Dr Bob » star008, posted by gardenergirl on March 29, 2008, at 22:15:37
> > I would have liked the opportunity to rephrase or apologize. I would learn more by rephrasing then just being blocked.
>
> So the babblemail I sent to you before you were blocked, in which I offered suggestions regarding rephrasing, didn't help point the way towards an opportunity to rephrase and/or apologize?
>
> gg
GG, I don't want you to be left feeling badly or something OK? We are trying to work toward more clarity on how to work with the written word here I think. Cuz so much of communication is based on body language, when you have only printed words, the choice of them can be problematic as you know.
So in that vein, and feel free to disagree(as I said to star I am in 'curiousity' mode).
My thot is the problem STARTS with the word 'So'. In my head when I read it it sounds(on MAN!, HOW to say this civilly!!!) oh well...in the interest of my scientific self, WTF I let her rip, just so's you KNOW I got total respect for you GG OK?
Anyways, when the 'So' is at the beginning of this sentence it comes across as sounding like 'well why didn't you????' to me. Just a small word....go figger.
To say it in a different way, I might have said..
'I had sent you a babblemail with suggestions regarding rephrasing, was it useful at all?'
I STILL think this could possibly be taken the wrong way, but leaves more room for a person to give a person the benefit of the doubt. Yup, I read it again, I think its really the 'so' part that just gets me going...?!
So while I do not doubt your good intentions GG at all, you have been supportive to me before(thank you), I just write this so maybe you can better understand....cuz I value you. If I didn't I wouldn't bother writing this.
Best wishes, and utterly respectfully,
M(whose brain is starting to hurt ;-) )
Posted by star008 on March 31, 2008, at 8:07:43
In reply to Re: please rephrase that. HOW?????Star » Dr. Bob, posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 22:59:02
I felt shamed and demeaned by the tone of the message.
Posted by star008 on March 31, 2008, at 8:22:10
In reply to Re: its all been said, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 16:37:32
I realize that I should not have responded in the way that I did. I felt put-down and misunderstood.
thank you for the apology and sympathy at the loss of my brother. I think we have always looked to each other for support since you aren't around much. I know that there is no way you can be here and respond to everything all the time.
Posted by star008 on March 31, 2008, at 8:34:04
In reply to GG, posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 23:28:56
yeah.. i get it about the title thing. I shouldn't have said anything at all. Muffled,, I am so tired of trying..Trying this trying that and it is all f**ed anyway..I tried to rephrase. The way things come across in a message are not always the way they were intended..GG did send me a good babblemail warning me about getting blocked and trying to help me out of it.. It was just too late. I thought i sent a response but I may not have since I don't remember things a couple of weeks after they happen.. I work 12 hour might shifts and can't think sometimes. thanks for trying to help me Muffled.
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 9:42:02
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » star008 » gardenergirl » twinleaf, posted by Dr. Bob on March 30, 2008, at 17:00:19
> > I asked about your response to my babblemail because I had never received any acknowledgment of it
> >
> > ggDr. Bob, I'm certain that you are aware of the difference in message between "I never received" and "you never sent". You have, after all, written extensively here on this very issue. I recall that you are aware you cannot know another's intent, and thus you cannot appropriately take that into account when judging someone's message. That said, and because I'm amused that with your action here you've taken away from your deputies their first opportunity to comply with your new or newly stated directive about my posts, here is my rephrase:
I asked about your response to my babblemail in order to find out what it was.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 9:46:36
In reply to Re: Were that even possible... » gardenergirl, posted by Toph on March 30, 2008, at 18:56:58
Hi Toph,
Thanks for your kind words. I so enjoyed meeting you back then. I'm sorry this feels awkward. I do still want to talk to you more about it, and I still intend to. Sorry for the delay.gg
Posted by 10derHeart on March 31, 2008, at 9:49:29
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 9:42:02
>you've taken away from your deputies their first opportunity to comply with your new or newly stated directive about my posts
Boy, I do *try* to keep up, but surely I missed something. And I am completely serious - where did Dr. Bob announce a directive about your posts??
Thanks, - 10der
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 9:51:44
In reply to GG, posted by muffled on March 30, 2008, at 23:28:56
Muffy,
That's good feedback, thanks! I appreciate that you took the time and the risk(?) to share that with me. And I appreciate you, because you are so generous and caring.(((((muffled)))))
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 10:09:46
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » gardenergirl, posted by 10derHeart on March 31, 2008, at 9:49:29
I don't know which deputy communication channel was used. I only know, with Dr. Bob's approval, the message.
gg
Posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 13:40:10
In reply to The listservs? Chat? » 10derHeart, posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 10:09:46
I think that my post might make it sound like a bigger deal than it is. I just had to chuckle at Dr. Bob's action so soon after. It's classic.
gg
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2008, at 19:11:07
In reply to Re: please rephrase that. Star, posted by star008 on March 31, 2008, at 8:07:43
> I felt shamed and demeaned by the tone of the message.
Thanks, I think that's much more civil. But IMO the "by" still could have led her to feel accused, so even more civil might be:
> > I felt shamed and demeaned when I read the message.
--
> thank you for the apology and sympathy at the loss of my brother. I think we have always looked to each other for support since you aren't around much. I know that there is no way you can be here and respond to everything all the time.
You're welcome, and thanks for understanding,
Bob
Posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2008, at 19:17:56
In reply to Re: please rephrase that » Dr. Bob, posted by gardenergirl on March 31, 2008, at 9:42:02
> I asked about your response to my babblemail in order to find out what it was.
Excellent, that not only is civil, but also expresses interest. Thanks,
Bob
Posted by star008 on March 31, 2008, at 19:22:02
In reply to Re: thanks » star008, posted by Dr. Bob on March 31, 2008, at 19:11:07
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